El-P

I thought it was implied since it came as a follow-up to us discussing back and forth about the issue. If it wasn't, I apologize for the "condescending" line. Ok then.

I actually agree. I only brought up Russo because Dan was saying in was "interesting reversal booking". I doubt that was the actual reason. We can think of many others. Again, I agree. Punk is an internet darling, so we know how things work. I for one feared a shitty match to begin with. I got an awesome match that was more fun than anything I watched in ten years coming from WWE, so it's not like I have any reason to flip out other than the idiotic booking.

Yeah, whatever. So, answer to those people directly, but no one here expressed that point of view (which is a stupid one indeed). Again, has this happened on this very board ? Hum... don't think so. So blaming people around here for an attitude that really hasn't been displayed here is pretty off the mark I would say. Without trying to sound condescending nor pretentious. I'm doing my best. I'm trying. (meanwhile, some talks about "fucking idiots" because they disagree. Quite defensive indeed.)

I don't think it's nowhere near Sting/Hogan, Nash beating Goldberg or the Invasion angle. But it's still really really stupid. I honestly didn't believe for one second that Cena would win that match beforehand. SO yeah, they swerved me. Hooray ! You got me WWE. Now ? Well, I'm excited to watch other Brock Lesnar match because that one was so awesome, but Lesnar already lost his luster as a monster now, so I'm not really excited to know what will happen next. Just throw some matches and I'll watch hoping it'll be fun.

That is so condescending it's ridiculous. God forbid someone would share the same opinion with the Meltz from time to time. Like people who think Cena winning is stupid are simply following Meltz's lead and not able to think by themselves. Remind me of that one when I drop the dreaded "trend" word next time around. As far as discussing the finish, I think it's been said already, at least I'm pretty clear about it : as a match in a vacuum, everything worked great, loved the hell out of the match, have no issue with Cena winning. As far as booking long term, it's an abortion to have Cena beat Lesnar in his first match. There's not much else to say that hasn't been said already. And don't act like anyone pretended like nothing was worth discussing. Discussing and arguing is what we're doing since we all saw that match. I don't even get where you're coming from with that ridiculous "people who think it's a good idea are not true wrestling fan" stuff to be honest.

Yes. Absolutely. Brock didn't slip on a banana peel and got small packaged. Cena busted him open with a chain and dropped his ass on steel stairs. Then walked around the ring and cut a promo while Brock was nowhere to be seen again. Yes, he did beat Brock. Totally felt like the ending of a big feud.

aka Russo booking : "They believe we'll do this so we'll do the opposite because..... because we'll do the opposite".

There's a happy medium between "needs to be protected with victories" and "losing your very first match clean to what should have been the big money feud".

So, you've got : _THE Invasion _Starrcade 97 _Nash beats Goldberg and ends the streak _Hash beats Takada just a few months after Takada got the IWGP belt _Lesnar losing his first match back to Cena in a post WM B-PPV _David Arquette, WCW champ _fucking up Bret vs Vince with stupid overbooking

Yea, that helped Goldberg a lot to realize that he was beatable after Starrcade 98.

You also got Lesnar's method, which was to elbow the guy in the head and make him bleed hardway. Pick you poison.

Cena is the Man. He can lose especially if you build an über monster against him. That won't hurt him. The loss to The Rock was a special case : it was The Rock, it was at Mania in the Rock's hometown. No one would get hurt from losing there, especially when Cena rarely loses anyway. Hash/Ogawa was another thing entirely, in a different context. First off, Ogawa couldn't work a lick. The matches sucked. And Has was already in a position where he needed to get rebuild, he wasn't on top anymore after the disastrous Sasaki reign. Winning the G1 CLimax in 98 was a step into rebuilding him. And Hash never got the great big revenge. Ogawa just squashed him in terrible matches.

So basically you say that was Cena's "Dreamer takes ten cane shots and He's Hardcore He's Hardcore He's Hardcore" moment ? 5-6 years into his reign of being The Man in the WWE, do you think that will shake up things that much when he comes back ? I'm very doubtful. You're giving WWE way too much credit here when you talk about reversal of conventionnal booking. It's just the usual "let's run through a feud because we don't have any patience and can't book long term". In other words : stupid booking.

Well, that's a good point. Like I said, the match itself is awesome and shitloads of fun, and in a vacuum I have no issue with Cena winning the way he did. The work was A++.

To me it's not even a case of being "too smart". I mean, as a mark, I would be disapointed to see Cena win already, it would just kill a bit of the aura that Borck had before and during the match.

The point is, Lesnar has been beaten, he's not undestructible anymore after his *first match*. And that is retarded. I know this thread is designed to systematically disagree with Meltz, and I don't know what he said specifically, but it baffles me that anyone wants to defend WWE on that one. It's a stupid decision. Will that destroy Lesnar, of course not, but it is still the dummest thing they could have done with him from a booking standpoint.

Hum, what ? Doesn't make a lick of sense. Cena is leaving. Traditionnal wrestling booking : guy leaving because the heel destroyed him. Babyface comes back several months after and gets his revenge. It's easy, it's simple. Now, Brock has already been beaten. He's not that special anymore, I don't care what anybody says. If at least Lesnar had beaten up Cena after the win and the show ended with a bloody Lesnar triumphant, a foot on Cena's carcass, then I would agree the loss wouldn't matter than much. There Cena won, KOed Lesnar, cut his cute promo, Lesnar was nowhere to be seen. End of story. Now you have to *re-build* Brock ? Well, that is poor booking no matter how you twist it.

If that's the case, then it's *really* fucking retarded. The guy is leaving for a while, you get your monster from UFC destroy him, oh my god, Lesnar killed Cena and drove him out of action for months. Big comeback, build to big match, Cena wins. $$$$. Seriously, the WWE can't book for shit anymore. They fucked CM Punk's big angle last year the same way.

Taken on his own in a vaacum, I have no issue with Cena winning, as far as work goes everything clicked perfectly. But the booking is a bit ridiculous if you look at the big picture, so I can understand the money burning pic. Polemic makes people talk. Controversy is money, ya know.

Well, it gots nothing on the Invasion, but it's still pretty damn stupid. I know everyone is freaking out at the idea Lesnar might decide to run off as soon as he gets bored, but I think at this point this aspect of Lesnar is getting way overstated to justify bad booking. Lesnar should have at least killed Cena here, killed a few other people on his way to SummerSlam and then Cena got the big win. Not overly complicated nor that risqué.

Just watched Brock vs Cena. Well, retarded finish aside (from a booking standpoint, not a work standpoint), this was awesome. Haven't had so much fun watching a WWE matches in ages. Brock is just on another planet as far as presence and charisma. Put him next to a supposed ass-kicker like Orton, who always looked fake and lame as hell to me, it's just day and night. Cena did his part about perfectly, since he's much better at selling rather than on offense, this match was pretty much designed to make him shine. The bump Lesnar took over the third rope was ridiculous, he could have killed himself. Loved the laughing part. Brock looked like a freaking monster, and a great classic heel. 15 years after Ken Shamrock, they have figured out how to book a UFC fighter (well, as far as working goes). Great stuff from start to finish. I don't feel a heel turn at all from the post match promo, which was good but at this point the "shooty" aspect is clearly passé (oh, I'm not supposed to talk). Still, that felt like a match for a major PPV, not following WM. Hopefully Brock never works on TV unless he just kills someone from time to time. He should be saved for PPV only.

Mmmm'kay. And *that* is giving your the urge to punch Brian Alvarez in the face ? Frankly, the result is puzzling. First match on a B-PPV, Cena wins. Okay. Not exactly the smartest booking ever. There is so many more reason to make you want tp punch Alvarez in the face if you really need to, but that picture, well, I can undertsand the reasonning.

Sounds like a main event I would want to watch, and sounds like a much better show than Mania. That being said, I sure hope it's nothing like Hash vs Ogawa, because that was fucking awful at every level. The result kinda baffles me though. So, Cena is leaving for a while after beating Brock ? Where does that leaves Brock ?

I don't. Can you elaborate ?

I don't know about moving, but it was an awesome moment, especially with Bret's little smirk. Bret was so great in 97.