El-P

I know it fit, but I was fearing the match would go into complete soap opera territory after the Taker/HHH debacle. As it was in the context of the match, and since it didn't go into soap opera territory (I mean, with "WWE movie dialogues"), yeah, it was ok.

It was complete shit. I watched a Terry Funk vs Abby match from MLW that made more sense that this crap. It was hilarious as soon as the soap opera kicked in though. And the constant references to the cage as being "demonic" when really, it had zero effect on the match at all.

Oh, thanks. I watched Cena vs Punk from SummerSlam last year but I didn't realized then for whatever reason.

Agreed. When Jericho went into "Your father, your sister" early on, I was like "oh, no, they're ruining this match", but he really didn't do anymore of this and went straight into wrestling. Didn't feel like a self-conscious epic either, just a hard-thought title match. The lack of kicking out of finisher left and right surely helped.

Nothing was funnier than Shawn's "dramatic" acting.

Ok, my yearly dose of WWE. This is the first time I actually the event in full in years, only FFind during the women match and the eye and hear gouging musical parts. Seamus vs Bryan. Ok. WWE still sucks. Orton vs Kane was decent for what it was, but still pretty much a nothing match. Orton is the worst DDP ever, and Kane is still Kane. Dull. Big Show vs Cody Rhodes I enjoyed a bit more far Show kicking Cody's ass, but really, Cody worksa bit on Show's leg, Show gets up, sells nothing, wins it. Ok. Whatever. HHH / Taker was laughable. It worked for the live crowd, but as a wrestling match, it was the drizzling shit. Punch, kick, terribly stiff chair shots, god-awful "emotionnal acting" (I guess that's Shawn's gimmick since the hilarious "I'm sorry Ric" line), bad soap opera and kicking out of finishers. I actually enjoyed it as I would enjoy a really bad movie. No near falls worked because it was all very predictable. Just stupid on every level, including the sledgehammer shots which should kill a man. Taker's intro was the best part, but nowhere near as great as the awesome Johnny Cash intro he got last year. I guess the über stiff chair shots were a way to make up for the lack of bladejob, although HHH did juiced a bit. Anyway, that was stupid, but at least we won't hear about how it was a ***** classic at least. Team Johnny vs Team Teddy was junk until the final segment with the dives and comedy. I'm not following the product, but as soon as that girl came in the ring, I knew she was screwing Ryder. I was "swerved" by the fact that only turned heel after teh match, but still, saw the finish come from a hundred miles. Chris Jericho vs CM Punk. As CM Punk used Living Colour for a long time now ? Anyway, that's another reason why he doesn't look like all the other WWE clones, he's got an actual good music theme instead of generic modern bullshit. Enjoyed this a lot, thought it was really good. A bit sloppuy at times, but that's Jericho for you, who hasn't changed on that matter. Really good stuff, but like it's been said, not much heat because the crowd was drained after Taker vs HHH. Well, Triple H did it again. But this was the WWE match I enjoyed the most in ages. Rock vs Cena : enjoyed it as well until the sharpshooter sequences which killed quite a bit of momentum I thought. The following STF sequence didn't help, as the match really didn't need two horribly applied submission holds back to back. I thought it was 5 minutes two long and too much kicking out of finishers, which made it predictable. The last near fall really worked though, as Cena picking up Rock after the crossbody and giving him his finisher looked like it could really be the finish. I thought Rock winning was nice, hell, it's WM in Miami, and The Rock is the only reason why they'll make a good number. I did feel like the match could have been so much more if they had more balls and had Cena work heelish. He would have been fantastic in this role I think, and the heat would have been nuclear. Dull-ass modern WWE, no risk taken, ever. Outside of that, good match and spectacle, exactly what I was expecting from Rock and Cena at WM. Anyway, this is not gonna get me back at watching WWE anytime soon, but I enjoyed the last too match quite a bit, I enjoyed watching the Rock, and I had a good laugh during Taker vs HHH, although I'm sure it was not the reaction intended. Undercard was just nondescript and dull, as always.

Well, that too, although it is a problem when you had Bret Hart executing a terrific looking sharpshooter on WWF TV for the past 6 years when Rock did it. The Rock sharpshooter does look like crap anyway you slice it. But then, what you said is true, once the audience is trained to accept it as it is, and if it works, well. See also : Tenryu's enzuigiri.

Well, with those links, I can't see the difference either.

Very wrong exemple. But I know that was at attempt at being a smart alec, so whatever... I'm done.

I mean as a health and social issue, heavy drinking is way worse. As far as Ric goes, being the partier that he is, I don't see what the issue would be to see him light a few up between shots of vodka for a bunch of women in line for Space Mountains. That's what I meant.

Good luck with that. I'm sure there are some matches on tapes somewhere, as wrestling was pretty big on TV in the 50's I think, but nothing has showed up anywhere so far. I would love to see if there are some Lino Ventura matches on tape. Bon courage pour le français !

I really enjoyed Dan's posts, recommanding matches and giving some explanation about the style. Yet, as I happened to stumble onto Vampiro's matches recently, it came to my thoughts that he and Konnan share some of the same "qualities", being foreigner, sucking in the ring and having been big draws in Mexico in the last decade. So, seeing this is a "Beginner's Guide to Lucha", I though well, why not ask *there* since it's a question about lucha. Silly me. And hell, I even said it was probably a stupid question. I'm pretty sure if anyone asked John in a "Beginner's Guide to All Japan" why Wajima was pushed, or why Gary Allbright didn't worked the same style as the main event guys, he would have gladly answered. But hey, people have to bitch about everything I guess. Don't worry, I won't interfere anymore, I'll just read. I probably had a Canek question somewhere, but I'll think twice before asking.

Well, anyone interested in All Japan and not knowing much about it has the right to ask why Wajima was pushed, yes. Vampiro and Konnan were important figures of 90's lucha, I don't see what the issue is asking questions about them.

Well, it's not the experience I have. Like I said, most good looking woman I hit on were smokers. Hell, I'd say 95% of them were smokers when I think of it. And the one I've been with the last 8 year was a smoker when I met her, and remained a smoker for a few years. The Nature Boy is a heavy drinker, and that's worse than smoking. Women just want to ride on space mountains, and Ric lighting a cigarette won't make him look worse than Ric drinking all night. Chewing and spitting tobacco on a plastic bottle, well, it's another thing. I know if I was a girl, that would gross me out.

Indeed. And now that smoking is pretty much forbidden everywhere, the line "I'm going outside for a smoke, you want to join ?" is pretty good to isolate yourself with the girl you're hitting on I guess.

I don't see in what ways, really. Especially when women smoke as much if not more than guys. Maybe I'm too "european", but I really don't see what the issue is. Hell, I hit mostly on smoking girls at college (pun intended), and back then I was a lot less tolerant with cigarette smoke as I am now. Anyway, the point being, Flair chewing tobacco really doesn't goes along with the Nature Boy image.

Don't think it has anything to do with it. Chewing a gum doens't look very good either. Well, you don't pay attention. I have been with a smoker. I don't smoke, never had. She didn't smell like tobacco smoke. Her appartement didn't either. I didn't mind her smoking around me, even after sex. There are degrees in smoking, and only hardcore smokers really smell bad. Those I couldn't bare. Now, I do agree chewing has one advantage over smoking, is that it doesn't bother the people around. It's more respectful of the surroundings. But like Loss said, Flair and chewing just don't mix. Especially the disgusting wya he was doing it during the interview. Now, he might be a shitty chewer for all I know.

Redneck Flair would have been all kind of awesome.

Hum, no. A good looking lady smoking a cigarette can be sexy as hell. I should no, I've been with a smoker (and I never smoked myself). She smoked half a pack of cigarette a day, and she didn't smell like tobacco. People who do stink tobacco because they smoke two packs a day, well, yeah, it is kinda repulsive to be around them. A guy chewing tobacco and spitting marroon goo in an empty plastic bottle is way more visually disgusting.

Yeah, because you contributed so much in this beginners guide to... wait, oh no, actually you contributed shit there and just come by to be an asshole. So who gives a fuck about your opinion there ?

I just watched a Sabu vs La Parka match from December 2002, and Sabu never cease to amazes me, the more I watch him, the more I enjoy him. I feel like I will never get tired of him, he's rather fascinating and way more fun that just "look the table spot". The "in the moment" is kinda ridiculous, since Sabu was much better in 2000 than he was in 1994, and rewatching stuff with a fresh eye really opened my eyes on him.

So, basically, Vampiro was the Ultimate Warrior, and Konnan was Lex Luger (well, Luger was a hundred times better than Konnan but you get the idea). I though Konnan was still pretty atrocious early on in WCW no matter how many cute lucha spots and submission he would throw out. Vampiro, well, I haven't watched his WCW work for years (and don't think I ever want to look back at it), but what I've just seen in MLW is just eye gouging bad on every aspect. That's about 12 years after he debuted so I guess he never learned much of anything.

This is probably a stupid question, but since it's a beginner's guide to lucha. I understand both Konnan & Vampiro were big draws in Mexico at some point. Now, with the amount of great wrestlers they have, what was the fascination for two north-american wrestlers who couldn't work a lick ?

For me too. I would have never guessed Flair had this habit. Which is, by all account, a disgusting thing. I was picturing Flair smoking cigars, not acting like Black Bart.

The main problem most critics have with that move is the contrived nature of the setup. Wrestlers rarely just happen to fall into that exact position, kneeling down with their arms draped over the middle rope... except in Mysterio matches, where it's guaranteed to happen almost every time. It's kind of a powerbombing-Kidman sort of spot, one which almost never happens except in this one wrestler's matches. Admittedly about half the time the setup involves Rey doing something to specifically plant his opponent there, but people do Just So Happen to fall into perfect 619-ing position a lot when they're facing Mysterio. This. And if that was just one spot out of many, that wouldn't bother me that much although it is annoying (like say, the Sicilian Slice, why people always get in the position to recieve that one from Little Guido, I don't know..., or the godawful Psycosis "opponent his balancing himself on the second rope while holding the third rope waiting for Psico to drop a leg on him" spot), but the fact that it is Rey's marketed and most famous spot in WWE makes it just infuriating to me. Add to the fact it doesn't look like a great offensive move anyway. Cute, yes. Cool looking one in a while, yes. As the obligatory Rey trademarked spot, it's annoying. Well, it's not retarded like the Worm at least.