El-P

No, it's exactly the opposite infact. My point is that Punk vs Henry is merely a very good match to me. Ad if a *very good match* can be considered MOTYC, then it means the standarts have dropped insanely. That there are more good matches on TV now than during the SNME days is only a product of the context, and doesn't change the standart. And I wonder how actually good are these *good matches*. If Punk vs Henry is a great match and MOTYC, then we disagree on what qualifies as an awesome match and MOTYC. Which means we probably disagree on the number of what people today consider *good* matches on TV too. And it's not even an issue of me thinking Punk vs Henry sucked, like I said I thought it was really good and enjoyed it a lot. But if that match is that much better than anything else on TV to be considered MOTYC, then I don't think I would enjoy much of what's on TV in 2012.

Lot of Saturday Night Main Event matches that are remembered fondly right now are also overrated. The context is different, back then how many big competitive match did you got every week compared to now ? Times have changed, and it's easier than ever to have a lot of good TV matches. People remember fondly SNME matches because they were a rarity. But I guess a *very good* SNME match like Bret vs DiBiase happening today on TV probably would have people go crazy for it to and name it a MOTYC too, despite not being worthy either, not now, not then.

Ditto. A WWE one no less. And enjoying it to boot.

Very solid, and Morton was excellent working heel. The finish hurts the match though, it's really lame. Week shot on the shoulder with a light laptop, after Morton spent the match pulverizing Gibson's knee ? With a good comeback and a good finish, would have been very good to excellent.

Not me. The Straight Edge gimmick is great for a heel character whi thinks he's better than everyone else, but as a face it's trickier to use it in an efficient way. You won't become an alcoholic because you get drenched in beer. It doesn't makes a lot of sense, and really it's not very fun at all. Jericho and CM Punk are better than this.

This is where I really see how much our views on matches differ. I enjoyed the match quite a bit, I thought it was *good*, hell, as a TV match I thought it was very good despite a shit finish. But MOTYC, no way, that would mean the quality of wrestling dropped to depressing low levels in the last 10 years.

I'm thinking that card might draw a bit. John That card would be huge, although once again, it relies mostly on nostalgia acts : Taker (yes, I consider Taker a nostalgia act at this point), Austin (I never thought he would work another match honestly), Rock, Brock. Not exactly fresh new stars, more like dream matches, which is cool for WM I guess. All that seems really cool on paper, but you need to add the real main event : HHH vs Shawn Michaels.

Oh man... He made shitload of money, he's banged up and he's 34, I doubt he'll kill himslef to have good matches like he did in 2003. Hum... If they lean toward Rock vs Brock next year at Mania, it will be very interesting to see how they will handle Brock in the meantime. I guess they should build to Brock vs Cena at SummerSlam then go into Brock vs Rock.

I feel your pain.

Most probably. Brock apparently got an insane amount of money and will work a light schedule. And you thought people got mad at the Rock for getting a big paycheck ?

From what I've seen of Lesnar, being most of his PPV matches a few years after the fact, he was a green guy with tons of potential. Much better than Sid or Warrior, he doesn't even compare to be honest. Had a bunch of really good match, and he was a monster that could work. In a way he looked like he could be the second coming of Vader, including the same flaws (bumping too much too soon). And he had a lot of charisma, and was managed by Heyman, who was seen as "Mr. Good Wrestling" back then opposing Stephy. Now, in reality, Lesnar didn't do that much, and I think that also plays into the fact his aura has grown. With the years going by, and especially with his UFC experience, Lesner has turned in the mind of people, including Meltz, into some kind of lost great worker of the last decade, the huge star that could be. In reality, Lesnar was just a really excellent rookie pushed to the top because of his size and body, who didn't like wrestling and quit because he was fed up and didn't care, and never drew a dime back then. Then he went to New Japan and stuck up the joint there. It's been how many years since he worked a match ? Lesnar coming back today is another way of banking on nostalgia, he's not the future, and I understand Meltz thinking this guy may just pack it up if he's not happy. Then, Meltz remains of Lesnar mark because of UFC. I think everybody is overestimating Lesnar both as a draw and a worker at this point. I'm very interested to say the least, because I enjoyed early Lesnar a lot, but I know he could also be a huge failure if he doens't want to work. We'll see.

The crowd was like a *good* ECW crowd, bringing what was the most fun about ECW audience. The "Si ! " chant at Alberto was great. The "We want lesnar" chant at Cena was great. I'm a bit puzzled by "You still got it" at Rock, I mean come on, it's not like Rock is an old geezer. I try not to care about teh crowd when I watch a wrestling match, but a really good crowd helps a show a lot. Makes a bad show tolerable and makes a really good show even better.

Watched the show for obvious reasons. _The Rock announcing he wants to be WWE champ is interesting me. He was pretty awesome once again, head and shoulder above everyone else. _CM Punk vs Mark Henry was a very good match, I enjoyed it a lot. The post-match angle, not so much. Rehash of Jake Roberts vs Jerry Lawler in 96, and those aren't good memories. But, hey, more Jericho vs Punk can only be good. _I thought Cena's promo dragged, and I'm not sold at all on him turning heel. I don't think WWE have the balls, sadly. I really wonder what Lesnar will look like, he hasn't worked in years, and he sucked ass in New Japan last time he did. That said, I'm interested in that too. _Alberto del Rio is still fun. I'm not getting Sheamus' character at all though. His gimmick is that he's really pale and a celtic warrior ? Man, he should come out to True Norvegian Black Metal and be managed by a Klan member, that would be more radical. _The Cobra is retarded like Mr. Socko or the Worm were, but Santino really good at what he does. I guess he's Scotty Too Hotty and Funkasaurus is Rikishi. 2000 feel indeed. _Lord Tensai is cute. It's funny how it's totally reversed psychology on WWE's part. Usually the outside world doesn't even exist, but there you have a guy who was an undercarder coming back from Japan as a star because he made it big there. Interesting. Still way too much talking and useless video game clones (man, that Miz vs Riley match...), I still can't stand the way it's presented (those backstage vignettes just have that horrible flat timing, which added to really poor acting makes them quite painfull most of the time, and it's been ten years + of doing the same), the ring announcer is the most uncharismatic you can think of, but I admit Rock + Punk + Jericho + Tensai + Lesnar kinda makes me want to watch more. After 13 years, I may get back at following the product more closely...

Well, I have no issue believing the MX and R'n'R match you watched was much better than Punk vs Jericho from Mania. Then again, we're talking some of the best workers ever in another setting, by that I mean, an era where workers were used to improvise and feel the crowd. (when I hear stuff like they tell the workers not to acknowledge the crowd these days, it says everything you need to know about their mentality toward what is "working").

Well, I'm not sure the comparison works the way you want there. The fact is, The Artist is a very good movie, while Twilight is mostly adolescent junk. So, basically, the Twilight crowd went apeshit for the Taker vs HHH match which was pretty much terrible on all account and hilariously bad when you get to see the acting up close, and then sat on their hands for the very good Jericho vs CM Punk match, which was the Artist of the night. Plus it's not like the Artist is a niche arthouse movie, it got mainstream success here, and shitload of press when it was released (I'm talking way before the triumph with prizes). Jericho and CM Punk didn't exactly work a workrate clinic as a wink-wink toward Roh fans, it was just a really good wrestling match, and the setting doesn't change that. Of course it would have gotten over much better in a smaller place without having to go after the draining Taker vs HHH stuff, and before the Rock vs Cena match everyone was dying to see by this time, but saying CM Punk and Jericho jerked off for workrate fans seems quite unfair to me, as you also have to take the context in account. I didn't get that feeling at all from watching the match. On a side note, I doubt it made its way to the US, but the joke about The Artist success at the Academy Award was that "The Americans really like us French people mostly when we shut the fuck up.".

I sure hope Taker has a sendoff of his own, he's the greatest character ever (despite period of sucking both as a gimmick and as a worker), and The Icon to the company. He deserves the biggest sendoff ever, without having Michaels and HHH hogging his last spotlight. Orton is 32, Cena is 34. Does that mean these two will be on top for the next 10 years ?... Scary thought. I think both will be gone before they hit 40. If not, well, welcome to the AWA.

BONG

Sorry, got confused. Yeah, Rock vs Cena is a Tokyo Dome show match, except too long and drawn out. Cut off 5 to 10 minutes and a few kick out of finishers, and it would have been more fun to me. It went too long, and Rock was gasping at the end.

So, what did Meltz think of that amusing turd that was Hunter vs Taker ?

That's a great point and that's why I disagree about whoever said it was like a Tokyo Dome show main event. Not at all. Great Tokyo Dome spectacle are Tenryu and Choshu beating the shit out of each others with lariat and chops. It's Hashimoto and Takada trading kicks. It's Inoki getting suplexed out of his boots by Vader. It's simple, high impact stuff that can register up to the last rows. People in the stadium didn't get to hear Shawn's bad acting, they probably only saw Hunter blabbing with Shawn after a hundred chair shots and wondering why.

Yep. I immediately thought, "hum, world titles mean jackshit."

That's exactly my case. I was interested in the show because of the Rock. I like CM Punk, from the few I've seen of him, as I'm not at all an old follower from his indy days. Ditto for Daniel Bryan, who I know only from rep, but I have seen zero matches from his indy days. So I was interested in watching his match with Sheamus. Needless to say, that was a huge fail. But they needed the time for a useless women's match, Flo-rida, Puff Daddy and his lame protegé, whoever those guys are, and a stupid segment with the Funkasaurus, who's already overstayed its welcome to me. On a side note, Edge was visibly very moved by the fact he was put over much more than the 4 Horsemen and Mike Tyson. When his music hit he looked like "Holy shit, they just went through the Horsemen and Tyson, and it's *my* turn now ?". Arn Anderson looks like a grandpa. I wonder how Barry is doing. JJ Dillon has aged a lot less than all the others. Love how they showed the less of Flair possible.

I sure hope Rock is not coming back for another match against Cena, because it didn't feel like a feud that would need to keep on. I don't think it felt *that* special to be honest, and the fact that it was in Miami made it better than it was. It was the right spot, the right time. Another match would not work that well, especially now that we've already seen everything that there is to see. And I don't see the big deal of Cena losing. People bought the PPV to see the Rock. People in the stadium came to see the Rock. WWE sent people home very happy, I think that's more important than anything else. Is John Cena really hurt right now ? I don't think he is hurt one bit. It was a big match, a big moment, the audience got what they paid for, that's a big positive. Cena's profile won't change because he did a job to the Rock at Mania in Miami. I just wished they had the balls to have Cena go heelish on Rock, that would have been fresh and really awesome to watch in this setting.

The issue is that WM is mostly a nostalgia show now. Has been for years. Save for Punk vs Jericho, the entire WM card was built around Taker, Michaels, HHH and Rock. The rest was an afterthought. Since when did Wrestlemania undercards not suck? Well, that's true, but my point was that Mania has been built around nostalgia matches only for the last few years. Flair's retirement. Michaels vs Taker. Michael's retirement. Rock coming back. HHH vs Taker. Now the name Lesnar is being thrown around, whatever that's worth, and he's nowhere near as big of a star Meltz think he is as far as wrestling goes. He's another guy from the past.

The issue is that WM is mostly a nostalgia show now. Has been for years. Save for Punk vs Jericho, the entire WM card was built around Taker, Michaels, HHH and Rock. The rest was an afterthought.