Matt D

Follow the money?

How much of this is gimmick PPVs? How much of it is weekly TV with big matches. How much is it that WWE doesn't want to build uncontrollable stars relative to a brand? How much is the TV writers? How much is Vince being out of touch? How much is PG? How much is the lack of competition? Lack of places for wrestlers to go? And is it REALLY that dire? Have they really not managed any compelling multi-month storyline? Are we falsely remembering how they did this in decades past or in other territories? It's amazing at how bad they seem to be at this when it should be their single job, more or less.

This is a really good idea. I was going to suggest to you guys that you do something like "1979 Thanksgiving Day Shows" and look at all the results from that night and give context to the feuds and how the pushes were working and the territories, etc., but this is another way at getting at that sort of thing that's maybe more in line with the BtS format.

Yeah, this is certainly an issue. Let's use Punk as an example, since he's a great promo and natural storyteller. He was in WWE for over 7 years and had very few long-term feuds that are even "good." The Jeff Hardy stuff is a good angle and there's actually a progression in the finishes to the big matches (in part because Punk was able definitively win since they fired Hardy at the end). After that... the stuff with Mysterio is ok but repetitive, the feud with Bryan and Kane over AJ is decent soap opera stuff with great matches, and the Cena stuff never worked for more than a month at a time. And this was a pushed guy! So I think that leads to the question of how much of this falls on Orton not being a compelling character vs. the position he's in and the era he's in. If Orton is around in the 80s, he probably falls into a role in various territories a bit like Jake Roberts - the sociopathic killer heel with a lights out finisher. But the movement would allow him to keep an aura that the current format just does not allow. He also probably would have been a babyface far less frequently, which really doesn't play to his strengths. I just haven't had time to make the thread but i really want to know what people think are multi-month angles that have worked in post 2001 WWE. Jericho vs Michaels, Michaels vs Undertaker, maybe the Flair retirement, maybe Legend Killer Randy Orton, maybe Hall of Pain Mark Henry to a degree, the Batista turn, but it's not much. It's astoundingly not much. And what about in this decade specifically?

I'm not sure there's a massive functional difference? I do think portraying him as a coward didn't help.

I do think it's interesting how polarizing Orton can be, even in this thread. I personally think much of the issue is that WWE hasn't had many successful multi-month angles in the last fifteen years. (Orton as Legend Killer/IC Champ may actually be one of them). You take out Michaels vs Jericho and even the stuff we kind of fondly remember like Punk (Nashed) and Bryan (They fell into it and pushed against it and got it right after a few reverse courses only to screw it up enough after the win that he was getting booed) don't really hold up.

It's also the one for the best storyline reason for happening. Stro is right. It really is different than the other two. Much more natural.

They need to keep Roman and Brock away from each other for a while. They have Roman slip on a peel and feed Braun to Brock next month?

That's not sponsored by Jerry Lawler shouting about puppies in 1999, sure.

Things have been busy. I'm still watching everything but I'm lax on the write-ups. Dibiase vs Hayes was gold. Another classic part of the feud. I took a lot of flack one March upon a time where I was overly critical of a wrestler who dropped his character while performing certain moves. My counter to that is Michael PS Hayes. He's probably the most committed wrestler ever in that regard. The expression on his face as he's charging Dibiase across the ring is this perfect mix of disdain and cockiness and underhanded viciousness. I love that it was Dibiase's glove on the pole. Ted(and Doc) vs the Birds is one of the best feuds of the 80s. There's no doubt about it at this point. They ran it for half a year with great match after great match and great promos to boot. How great was Ted's comeback out of the corner. It's a crime we didn't get babyface Ted after 87. I wish this had one moment of Ted (with the Million Dollar Glove) hitting a heel. The post match promo made me badly want to see the Ted vs OMG match too. Koko vs OMG was another good OMG performance. You have to love all of Koko's dodging to begin. "Milking it for all it was worth" is right. I'm with Pete on this one, including the finish. I hope we can get more Valentine from earlier into the 70s as we go. He had such a presence. Anyway, keep 'em coming Bruce. Seeing a new match pop up is easily a highlight of my day.

Is that the name of the local hospital?

Either that or the wellness policy got his pick. He hit a .8 on the Nikki Bella Forearm scale tonight though.

Am I the only one who kind of wants to see Joe vs Orton?

Could be why Corbin didn't win the belt?

Matches are way better if no one's ever seen them before though!

I was talking to Pete about this, but you almost have to release an addendum based on the footage we've gotten from the Dibiase/Doc vs Freebirds feud, including two (maybe even three) of the very best Michael Hayes singles matches ever.

The Cory stuff can grow old, but hearing it in a different setting was funny. I laughed as hard as I had for a while at Mike's Gannosuke joke. Also, I literally just broke out laughing while crossing K street here in DC to the out of nowhere Paul Stanley impression. I don't think i have any real idea who Mike is since I'm not on twitter, but he's been a good guest so far. Also, I think Kris is going to hunt down those old PR tapes he has.

We can't even define casual fans in a social media world.

This made me want to hear a longform podcast on the Fantastics.

Can they name more than two cruiserweights? Can they differentiate between Fandango, Breeze and Hawkins? It's tough in 2017.

I still think it's more of a center/periphery thing.

This is a company that gets away with the Moolah stuff too. Let alone, you know, the independent contractor stuff. No one cares outside of us.

You think they'd jump at that because it lets them highlight Austin again. I'm not convinced Vince has any idea what the Dangerous Alliance is though.

The only way to induct Davey is as part of a broader 97 Hart Foundation. It lets Bret and Neidhart do a speech and lets them sneak Owen, Davey, and Pillman in without actually having to deal with the fact Owen, Davey, and Pillman all died in tragic ways.

He can do the jobs that AJ can't.