Matt D

So, I've been struggling with Villano III who I had on my draft list, but for reasons that felt like peer pressure. I had seen a bunch of his stuff but I just didn't feel like I had that 360 view I want if someone to have them on my list. He did not make my actual submission list. Because of the podcast, I looked at the Atlantis/Villano match again. I hadn't seen it since really the start of my lucha watching three years ago. Everything sort of clicked this time around (it was a sort of connective tissue of his range amongst other things). I decided that he had to be in there after all. I knocked out another "peer pressure" candidate to get him on. (I only had 2 on my list and both of them are gone now).

There's stuff on the periphery like the Zhukov match or some of the Freebirds stuff, but nothing really quite makes it in that regard. Though this came to mind too?

3 Hours of Raw is just too much?

He's on my list. Right above Wahoo.

I still think Bayley currently is in the "unique circumstances" category, even if she didn't start that way. I imagine Trips is taking care of her as they continue to become a touring brand. The story was that they did not get per show bonuses but that a select few were bumped up to around six figures. If not her, then who?

I'm hesitant to think Bayley isn't an exception at this point. I don't have the WONs with me, but I think there was talk back in August or September of 2015 that some specific NXT contracts were getting restructured to be much higher, which is without the usual road expenses (or they're much rarer) plus the perks offered at the Performance Center.

I think Bayley makes a different amount of money than than too. There was some talk that they were restructuring certain contracts as it became more of a touring brand, no?

I bet she does better on merch than Sasha.

She shouldn't get called up. She's a draw in NXT. They should run with that as far as they can.

It's clear that the New Day is getting the Smilin' Babyface Diesel treatment, and that's sad. The snake is eating its own tail.

I'm 2:30 or so in. I sort of ape the previous comments to some degree. First and foremost, this is a HARD thing to do. There's no way I could explain it to someone not in our circle, like my wife, because unless you're going through it, it's impossible to see how hard it is. And Tim is so damn reasonable and earnestly excited for almost every one of Steven's picks, whether or not he could have included them on his list. I think, if nothing else, it showed me how thoroughly different my list will be from Tim's or Chad's, and I think while it's off the wall bonkers in some ways, it's very consistent with itself and with the values it presents. And Tim's was as well so far, absolutely. As was Steven's. There are just different ways to tackle the question. That doesn't mean I wasn't a little frustrated listening though.

I'm sympathetic to that but i feel like it's fair game if someone brings up the: "Well, it DID play well with the demographic (and Dave Meltzer)." argument. Michael Bay is probably a better example.

Also, there is the fact we have seen him wrestle so often, debated him, got tired of the style. When I was thirteen The Marshall Mathers LP was the pinnacle of hip hop to me. Argued about it, played it all the time, quoted every song with my friends. Now I think it sucks, and would never think of putting it on. But it is probably me who has changed, not the record. I've heard different styles, got into rap from different eras, been exposed to more stuff, started to appreciate different things. It doesn't mean anything to me anymore. But it meant a ton at the time, so it must have something about it that makes it great or compelling or impactful, even if these days i don't care for it in the least. It is by that kind of rationale that Kurt Angle and Shawn Michaels make my list. Lower than the wrestling equivalents of Talib Kweli or Kendrick Lamar or Nas, but higher than someone like Vince Staples, even though I'm ten times more likely to listen to Vince Staples than Eminem. This is pretty much the most fitting analogy of my rap fandom and my wrestling fandom as I've ever read. I don't know whether or not my opinions were wrong in the past, but my opinions have changed drastically. I was 19 when the MMLP came out and I couldn't have been happier with it as an album. It was over the top, vulgar, and packed full of all types of bells and whistles. At the same time I was a big fan of ECW, WCW Cruiserweights, and Kurt Angle. All of those things were essentially the Marshall Mathers LP in a wrestling ring. I was at a point in my life where subtlety wasn't high on my list of priorities. I wanted my music and my wrestling to be "action packed." I don't think the value of those things should be discarded now that I'm older and appreciate different things. Angle is really good at the style he wrestles, despite the fact that I'm not much interested in that style any more. I have him on my list, because at the time in which he was having his most famous matches his style was greatly appreciated. Some things don't hold as well as others, but after reading through this thread it is clear that most of us loved his stuff as it happened. Should we throw things away, because they don't fit in our current view, when they were praised by their intended audience? Counterpoint: some of the most successful things in the world are pretty terrible but are still praised by their intended audience. Nickelback comes to mind. Nickelback always comes to mind. It's your call whether that's good art or not.

That could be more about skill in the utilization of steroids than in pro wrestling, mind you. That's a totally different list.

But not nearly as good at implementing matwork.

I think there are a lot of interesting points here that don't entirely fit for the GWE discussion but that we should delve into deeper for their own sake.

Any chance that any more IWE with him from 71-72 exists?

He gets pissed off when Eddy Guerrero takes too long to sell.

2 Cold Scorpio! There's a guy that I just didn't see the footage in time for. A lot of it isn't hugely accessible. He could have been a contender.

I understand the idea that people's expectations might be too high but the only Wrestlemania I can think of with worse build than this is 27. And that's pretty close.

Whereas live crowds tend to go apeshit for Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle matches, despite the fact that a lot of people here think neither one of those guys "knows how to work". It's all in what you value as an individual. It's the wrestling equivalent of cotton candy or a firework display. Firework displays have a long history of dazzling crowds, but they are quickly forgotten. That's a weird analogy to me because I don't know what the artistic counterpoint to fireworks would be. Kurt Angle to me is like Def Leppard. Yeah, most of their work is grossly overproduced and their lyrics are juvenile to the point of being incomprehensible, but I still love listening to Hysteria and 30 years on I still sing along to "Pour Some Sugar On Me" because it makes me feel good. Their job, like Angle's, is to entertain me. They accomplish that in spades. Do they make me think the way U2 might? No. Do they make me appreciate musicianship the way Stevie Ray Vaughan might? Hardly. But I don't always want those things. If you can succeed in what you set out to do as an entertainer then it doesn't matter what other people do. Kurt Angle might not structure his matches in a way that is as pleasing to hardcore fans as somebody like Misawa does, but he's still succeeding at his goal, because his goal is not necessarily to please those fans. His work is not quickly forgotten by me. It left an impression on me that lingers to this day, whether or not it holds up to microscopic scrutiny. I think we've seen wrestlers that are able to do a lot of what Angle does well and also structure their matches far better. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive or that wrestling can only be entertaining in that wildly exciting, frenetic way if it's big and dumb. It can still be big without being dumb. It doesn't have to be an either/or.

Presentation matters when it comes to this.

Villano III was on there until the last second, when I was entering my list, and I finally decided that I couldn't justify him if pressed. He was more or less the only person I felt like that about. He was on based on glimpses I'd seen and rep. No one else on my list was like that. I just couldn't do it. My list is probably going to give you an aneurysm, OJ. Sorry.

Not really Bubble again, but guys who I just didn't have enough time to do a last lap with. The ones that I just didn't feel confident enough to place. Someone like Jack Brisco could have been, I don't know, 40 on the weighted scale of footage, but I just didn't feel like I had enough of a grasp of him. Villano III, Keith Haward, Van Buyten, Leo Burke, Espanto, Jr., Gino Hernandez, Jerry Estrada, Little Guido, Super Astro, Alan Sargent, Ron Starr, Jack Brisco.

Too much on my plate over the next few weeks. Pulled the bandaid off and submitted my ballot. Still a few things I would have liked to look into but it's off into the ether now for good or ill.