Matt D

It all depends who's watching. The nerds who watch Up Up Down Down are the new guys in business suits in the front row cheering Flair?

Bagwell can't win. I get that he was getting pretty good in 96-97 when he started going to NJPW, but even if he had continued in that direction and never gotten injured, Russo coming in would have totally destroyed any chance he had of putting on quality performances in 99-00 and his general attitude would have tanked him in WWE. We would have ended up with a lot of mid 00s Ken Anderson matches or something. Even in an alternate reality, it doesn't work out for him.

Dustin is a 10 no matter which way round we do it, so it doesn't matter. That was just a general clarification question with the best example I could think of.

Does Longevity have to be contiguous? Dustin, for instance, was excellent from 2009 to 2014, but wasn't for a number of years previous. That's just an example. it'd seem to fit with Taue maybe from what people are saying?

How high do you think that 40 will get Dustin?

I think it would freshen things up in the short term. I think it also had that effect in the beginning. You suddenly had Bubba Ray Dudley or Bradshaw getting singles babyface pushes and what not. As a 3 to 6 month thing, it could be a lot of fun.

I think just on the odds, a brand split feels like it should provide twice the chance for a change. At the same time, it provides twice the change for more of the same.

I think people really want change at this point.

Liger, as much as anyone nominated, is someone I can't wait to really delve into after March is over.

Rey is someone I don't personally feel strongly about but that I also can't deny. He'll be in my top 20, no doubt.

The Angle/Race comparison (now a little bit debunked I think) would have probably been a positive for him then too. It's a negative now.

Sombra is a perfectly serviceable flying tecnico, though I'm not sure he can still pull off some of what he was doing ten years ago, but he's way better as a cocky, asshole rudo.

I don't think Lothario will make this list, but I think he would make it on in 3 years or so.

Steele reminds me of the tall, thin, soft-spoken pushover local vicar who gets pushed further and further as Bertie Wooster or someone gets under his nerves and he finally snaps and falls to unexpected but wildly competent (if righteously exasperated) fisticuffs. You know, in a good way. I thought he came off almost as well as Rudge in the two Rudge matches I saw.

Smackdown, October 11, 2011 Mark Henry © vs Randy Orton https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepWqO8aTbg I wanted to look for a match that I wasn't familiar with, so it didn't seem like I was just cherry picking. I did go with the 2011 run, however. I wanted a tv singles match at around ten minutes long that was readily available on youtube. This is NOT the Orton match I mentioned before. It's one I didn't remember at all. This takes time to write, so I'm not doing a full reread/edit on it. It's late. Bear with me, please. This was within a few weeks of Henry beating Orton for the title, followed a battle royal earlier in the night that Orton won to get the shot, and had a number of distinct purposes. 1.) It had to help Orton get his heat back after the loss, which was considered an upset. 2.) At the same time, Henry had to keep his heat and continue to be strong while, 4.) also being uniquely vulnerable (we'll get to that), while 5.) being part of the transition of feuds, Orton to Cody Rhodes and Henry to Big Show to set up the next PPV. It also had to, of course, 6.) be a compelling, satisfying TV main event that drew in the crowd even despite all the other goals, including the screwjob ending that was inherent in 5. I'd like to use this platform to show how Henry's performance played towards each of the goals mentioned, most especially how by portraying every single move in the match as important and weighty, he was able to present himself as both dominant and vulnerable. That will involve pulling out specific moments in some sort of chronological order, but I'll try to avoid conventional play-by-play. Again, this is a match selected at random, not something I knew to have a great performance. The match began by focusing on getting Orton's heat back from his previous, clean, loss. The announcers played up that Henry winning had been an upset and Orton had won one of the biggest battle royals (41 people) in WWE history. Orton almost immediately took the fight to Henry, dodging mammoth blows and striking back with jabs. They continued down this road for around a minute, with Orton landing more and more strikes as Henry missed. Each miss was broad and massive, which made Henry come off as lumbering but also incredibly dangerous. If he hit one, it'd do far more damage than the little shots Orton was getting in. Henry gave quite a bit here, staggering around the ring, and ultimately, after a few European Uppercuts, going down to his knees. This was very early in the match for him to give so much, but Orton had to look strong and fiery early, as Henry was going to take much of the rest of the match. Because of that, and because Henry was established through previous matches in only going down when it was very earned, it absolutely meant something that Orton was able to stagger him so early. This ended with Orton trying to take advantage of the kneeling Henry with an attempt at a short DDT on him (not unlike his draping one). Henry shrugged him off and all of the way out of the ring, establishing his power and how instantly match changing it could be. That was pretty much the end of the shine. Henry rolled out after Orton, who tried a few more shots but got cut off by a headbutt, which again, in one move, is enough to act as a believable momentum shift. That's because of Henry's size, his strength, and his presence. He lifts up Orton, taking his time, slow and confident, and slams him into the post. He's working at his pace here, letting everything he does sink in to the crowd, let it all breathe and have meaning. Maybe some other wrestler would be stomping and kicking and would slam Orton's head into the post three times and into the rail twice, but Henry doesn't need to: He shrugged Orton off to get him out of the ring; he gave him a headbutt to stop his offense; he slammed him into the post once to crystallize the shift. He was in control now. That's exactly how he worked his control segment too. It's not that he did the bare minimum. It's not that he worked smart. I don't feel like that accurately portrays what he did here. It's more this. If he was going to do something, then he'd rather take the time to make that matter and REACT according to make it matter, instead of just doing more. The emotional reactions increase as the match goes on. These reactions started with him swiping, frustrated at Orton (those missed haymakers) and shrugging him off, angry that he had been knocked to a knee so quickly and that Orton was trying already for that DDT. They would continue through the match, shifting between an almost gleeful confidence and an increasing frustration as Orton continues to try to come back and as he can't put him away. Upon rolling him back in, Henry went for the pin. It's a kickout and instead of just moving on to the next spot, he has it out with Charles Robinson, yelling at him. This is the first pin of the match, but Henry's already upset that it didn't work out, that his belt was still at risk, that his attack (just the headbutt and the posting) wasn't enough. It's something that could feel out of place, but instead, it solidifies the stakes of the match and actually makes his assault on the outside feel more legitimate in retrospect. If Henry's mad that didn't lead to a pinfall, maybe it was even nastier than it seemed? He continued on Orton, moving him around the ring at his pace, pushing him to the corner, launching a few more strikes and a headbutt, bringing him back to the middle of the ring so he can hit a clubbering blow. Then he raised his hands and took three long seconds to walk towards Orton with them primed, snatching on a double nerve hold from behind, grinning big at the pain he was inflicting. Orton sold this well and Henry came across as confident and vicious. Those three imposing, menacing seconds? That grin as Orton writhes? All of that matters. They're not going to stay long in this. They don't have the real estate to, and they're going to work back into it a couple of times, so they have to maximize what they have. Orton chopped his way out long before the hold wore off its welcome, but hit the ropes and Henry cut him off with his size, just like that. That was the first hope spot and his confidence was still high. He walked over, just stepped on him while holding onto the ropes. This let Robinson admonish him again and let the two of them argue. Henry's so good at using the ref in this way. He could ignore him, be cool about it, but he uses Robinson here, claiming that he put his hands on him, yelling, letting the move linger for a moment, to make what he was doing seem all the more forbidden and illegal and devastating. One headbutt later, it was back to the nervelock again with the few seconds of set-up. Once again, they're not in it long, but between the foreboding, stalking set-up, the selling, the elation, and the way they bridged the gap by drawing more heat, the fans were chanting for Orton to get out. Of a nerve hold. In 2011, at the end of a Smackdown taping, with a burnt out crowd that had to sit through a NXT Redemption episode taped before the show. That's rare. It's something that I think we take for granted, watching so much old wrestling with hot crowds and heels who really knew how to garner heat and faces that could get the crowd behind them. Again, they didn't work the hold long. They basked in the chants, and Orton fought out, rewarding the crowd for their faith. Orton came off the ropes again, though and Henry cut him off again with a back elbow, an immovable force. That was the second hope spot, and Henry's confidence was flagging. That was the heart of his performance for the rest of the match. He was physically dominant but mentally vulnerable. Henry was a wrestler who had lost the big one so many times. He'd won against Orton once, but it could have been a fluke. So after cutting him off, he went back to the pin, and Orton kicked out. No wrestler in the last 30 years has won in the WWE after a back elbow cut off, but Henry sold his frustration, screaming. Once again, it told the crowd something, told the viewers something. It made all of this more believable because Henry obviously believed. They weren't just running through spots. He believed that he could have won with that pin and therefore it mattered that he didn't. They went to commercial with him frustrated and came back with him kicking Orton in the corner. He picked him up in running powerslam position and lingered, lingered long enough for Orton to try to elbow his way out. Again, that hesitation, that ultimately futile attempt by Orton to stop the move, and then the visual impact. All of that was the difference between someone mechanically running through a video game moveset and choreographed and practiced spots and counters and a match resonating with a tangible sense of struggle, of something that we see week in and week out not just being more of the jaded, desensitizing same. And, of course, Henry went for the pin again, because the belt mattered, because the win mattered, because Orton's resilience mattered. Orton kicked out. No one should have believed the pin would have worked, but Henry believed and that belief was contagious. When it failed, he shook his head, shrugged, yelled. His confidence was fading. This was the vulnerability within his own head. Still, he had the advantage, and still he was so effective in his methodological offense. He stepped on Orton's neck. He headbutted him again. He slammed him, looked to the crowd, let it all sink in again, and hit the big splash, smiling, fooling himself, after he hit it. Another two count. Now, he put his head in his hands. He was more than frustrated now, he was despondent, and even in the midst of a ten minute match, even though convention should have said otherwise, it mattered. It mattered and it set the table for the true comeback, showing that mental vulnerability exactly how they needed it to be shown to prepare everyone for the Big Show's arrival, the end of the match, and the PPV match to come. Now, Henry no longer believed he could put Orton away. He hadn't even hit three finishes on him and eaten two RKOs, but despite that, because of his performance, you still believe that he believed. You believed that he was desperate enough to drag Orton to the corner, to climb up to the second rope, and to go for a Vader Bomb. Orton got his feet up and it didn't look beautiful, but it wasn't supposed to. That it was ugly just highlighted that Henry has let himself get thrown by his own failure and by Orton's resilience, that he attempted to do something he simply couldn't pull off because of it. From there, Orton came back, launching a few blows before getting Henry down with a dropkick. And that was enough. Because of his own mental weakness, Henry was off his feet for the first time in the match and that was enough of a meaningful moment (and one that the crowd popped huge for, just the fact that Orton had gotten him down) to call for the end of the match and Cody's run in for the DQ. It was enough to put the thought in the fans' head that Orton could have likely won, but in the face of Henry's dominance, it wasn't enough for them to be sure. In the post-match, Show came out to save Orton, tossing Cody into a RKO and chokeslamming Henry, who made sure to spasm once after the spot to make it seem all the worse. So that was that. It was a ten minute, throwaway, storyline-finished, screwjob Smackdown main event. It reminded me of one of those Nitro main events with the NWO that sort of went nowhere as everyone waited for the run-ins, but it was so much more than one of those. This actually achieved a number of goals, some of them contradictory. That's a lot harder than it seems. Some of that was Orton's performance, but so much of it was Henry portraying a total and absolute belief in everything he was doing. He was committed to every move, every failure, every action and reaction. I've heard people say that such commitment should be the bare minimum in wrestling, but it's so, so rare. He portrayed belief so the fans believed. It mattered to him, so it mattered in general. The match accomplished something through ringwork and performance, through making the moments matter and making them add up to more than the sum of the parts. There was no running through spots, no feeding because that was just the convention. Nothing happened just because it was supposed to happen, because that's the way a WWE match worked. Everything mattered. Everything built. They accomplished more in ten minutes than plenty of guys nominated would have in forty. Like I said, this wasn't just working smart, though much of it WAS smart. It wasn't just believable execution. It was the conviction. Was it a great match? Not really, but it wasn't supposed to be. Was it a special performance that accomplished exactly what it should have? I think so. I think Henry has a lot of special performances, but you don't get star ratings for special performances. You have enough of them, though, and you get on my list, even if it's on the back half somewhere.

The DVDVR sets made a big difference for some of the AWA guys at least.

I think there was a level of wish fulfillment with Shane too. For those who were teenagers in the Attitude Era or just a little older, he sort of felt like he was living a dream, the idea of "if he could do it, then...?" and he wrestled the way a lot of smarks would want to too.

I think I have him at 8 or 9 right now, despite it all.

It sure pissed off the MSG crowd in that match, if I'm remembering correctly.

It's your fault for showing me that I was taking for granted that everyone knew what I was talking about without further work on my part. (thought the fact he's apparently on almost no one's list doesn't hurt)

I'm going to do something about Mark Henry before the deadline. (I make so many promises I can't keep)

I'm thankful that most of my hard decisions involve Dutch Mantell

I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Hansen gets so frustrated here. It's sort of amazing to see.

Last post in his thread has some criticisms I had, though there were some good posts earlier on about why he might be considered to transcend such things.