Matt D

My main counterpoint to your argument of "Why don't they sell the stomach the whole match?" is that one (the active limbwork that is the focal point for an entire portion of the match) is part of the broader story being told (it's architectural) and the other is just a momentary blip. This is especially meaningful, for example, when it comes to post-comeback Michaels who has a lot of matches built around him selling his reconstructed back only to kip up at the end, perfectly fine. I honestly wish they had gone further into the religion and implied that whenever he did that he had some holy power coursing through him or something. One's part of the story the wrestlers are telling and a part that's supposed to hold things up. The other is just "wrestling has to be real" which isn't what I'm saying. I want it to be consistent and I want to feel like moves matter. If you use an element in your storytelling, one that has a real narrative thrust, you shouldn't just ignore it a moment later. I don't think novels do that. They might tie it off to get to the next plot point or what not, but it usually has both weight to what happens immediately thereafter and closure, and that's both different and appreciated. It's more narrative consistency than wrestling logic, if that makes sense. Alternatively, if it just didn't work, a bad tactical choice, then I'd like to see that played out in the match in some meaningful way. I'd like to see frustration from the heel that the tactic didn't work, or you know, the babyface acknowledging it somehow. I'm not saying you have to sell it like death. You don't have to pop your arm back in like Cesaro did in his match vs Zayn. Just shake it off in some way that isn't just rushing to hit your shit. Now, then, all of this is a personal thing for me. Is it dogmatic? On some level, but I think there's a theoretical underpinning to it. Does it ruin a match for me? Not usually but it does detract and when someone makes the effort, it's appreciated. It's not just about the comeback. It also makes the actual heat section mean more because it was shown to have consequence. It's like the old mindset: the better you make your opponent look, the more it means when you beat him. The more you make limbwork have meaning even after the fact, the more it matters that you're fighting through it and I think the more it makes your offense ultimately mean.

It doesn't have to "work" but some guys manage to sell it while getting back on offense, even if it's after hitting a move, or after a win, and other guys don't. It stands out to me because it's something that I've seen done well quite a bit, even in matches where the limbwork doesn't work. It's one thing if it's never sold, or is cut off before the selling, or at least before the heavy selling, but it's another when the wrestler DOES sell it a lot and there's no gradual recovery or selling while back on offense. It was sure working a second ago when you were selling your ass off. If there's no connect between that moment and the next, it does bug me because other wrestlers can do it and do it well. it's laziness or insecurity or apathy in the face of thinking it's time to get your shit in and not understanding that moves mattering is part of conditioning the audience over time. If we were in a vacuum and no one did it (and there are certain styles where it's not done as much), that's one thing, but we're in an environment where some guys do it more often than others. By building a part of a match around a body part, by using that particular wrestling tool to kill time or get heat, there's a cost, and that cost is that if you don't sell it later on, it ends up meaning less within the context of the match. It's not paying back a loan, basically. I honestly think Bryan drops his selling on purpose to look stronger despite his size. It's not something I think he did nearly as much earlier in his career. He's basically trying to trade in sympathy for that "fans love an asskicker" mentality. Maybe he feels like he has to in order to be accepted as a WWE main eventer. Maybe the agents or Hunter or Vince want him to. I don't know. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing though. I think Michaels did quite the same a lot of the time, though it somehow seems less benign from him. And this is an issue because 1.) Some people DO manage to do it much more consistently and 2.) because we're looking at the word "great" quite a bit here. If we were looking at "good" it would be less of an issue.

Comparing blowing off legwork to a narrative ruse to keep the audience guessing is a daring move. That's the kind of thing I'd try to pull.

I do think they need more 80s nostalgia. More Macho Man and Ultimate Warrior and Hogan. Lots more Hogan. They're maybe targeting the wrong boom period?

I'll give them a rewatch sometime soon. It's been a while, especially for the Summerslam match. Most of you guys do have better organizational systems than I have and if enough of you (and a nice cross section) say I'm wrong, I tend to think there's something to it. At least on everything except for that Rose/Somers cage match.

That's a fair question. I think it runs into a lot of trouble we have with some of these comparative views. The answer is "probably, but that only helps so much when compared to every other match ever."

Tons of Moves contrived around the ladder. I feel like the ladder is much more organic in the Goldust match. It's a match where they happen to have a ladder as a tool as opposed a match where the ladder is a gravitational centerpiece that changes the general logic of pro wrestling. The ladder as a means as opposed the ladder as an end unto itself, basically. I haven't seen the Summerslam match in forever, though, so I'll admit that might not be the case as much there.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xo3qb0_goldust-vs-shawn-michaels-world-title-ladder-match-8-24-96_sport I still like the Goldust ladder match, probably more than Shawn's other ladder matches but that's because there's less stupid shit.

I still think they dropped the ball not doing a Network-Only one night tournament for the title before MITB after Bryan went down (they had a saturday house show that it could have worked at). Or at least King of the Ring exclusive on the network in June or something. The former was almost a kismet moment for them to capitalize on a negative in a strong way.

It's pretty striking to compare people's feelings back in February about how this year would go for WWE to now. the TV deal was a disaster that most people didn't expect. They were supposed to sail on that and use it to cover any danger of the network transition.

I have a feeling that there's not a single person in Titan Towers who are thinking that a lack of old territory content has anything to do with the numbers being low.

I see it advertised on facebook and websites all the time.

So someone raised him as the worst wrestler ever. Let's find out. We'll keep these quick. HTM vs Bam Bam Bigelow - PTW - May 9, 1988 Lots of stalling, working the crowd. He does it with a lot of energy though.I really like the way he doesn't just leave the ring every time Bam Bam advances, but he dives out in a big way. I have a feeling a lot of his IC title matches are going to be heavily focused on being a vulnerable champ. Lots of heel in peril. It's a bit more tolerable for a mid card heel, but it might get old, no matter how passionately he dives out of the ring. I think his selling/bumping is actually pretty good, way better than I was expecting. There's not much chance to show offense here and the finish is pretty weak with a last second countout win set up to give Bigelow a phantom victory by hitting his outside in splash just a little too late that felt a bit fabricated. Weird announce team here. Just Heenan and Hayes. HTM vs Ken Patera - Boston Garden - May 2, 1987 The crowd was super hot for this. Patera replaces the recently injured (On SNME by Kamala and HTM) Roberts who came out to announce it. He comes out with Damien too. Fans go nuts for him though and he seems to really appreciate it. He just chucks HTM across the ring with slams and Honky sells it like death. Different sort of stalling here. He doesn't dive through the ropes so much as he heads halfway through. There's arm work, first by Patera, with some good shine offense though it goes a bit long, relatively, and then, after a missed corner charge, by Honky on Patera. Unfortunately, neither guy sells it after it's over, even though Honky mocks a sell of Jake's arm. The best part of the match is how Patera positions HTM in an armbar in the corner of the ring repeatedly so that Jake can push the bag at him. Nice comeback with Patera tied up in the ropes but getting out while Honky is taunting Jake. Pretty decent finish for a match like this with Patera getting the bear hug, Hart going up on the apron, HTM cheating to get out but Jake catches his leg off the rope and Patera hits an elbow for the win. Post match they ALMOST get him with the snake while in a full nelson. Solid match that would have been actively good if they made the armwork mean just a little more. HTM vs Mr. X - MLG - Nov 16, 1986 Everyone has to watch this match. It's a lot of fun. This was just after the Honky vote results and he came out like a total face and the crowd wanted nothing to do with it. He slowly started to slip into more and more heel mannerisms and moves as the match went on. Meanwhile, Mr. X continued to wrestle like a total heel, just eyeraking over and over again, but he's more and more over with the crowd as they go. He's just flabbergasted as an "x" chant starts and it's amazing. Totally amazing. Eventually it lulls him into this crazy sense of flair and he tries for a springboard splash (in 86, in WWF; not even a slingshot, a full out springboard), misses, and eats the Shake Rattle and Roll for the loss. Honky's pissed at the fans post match. Everyone has to go see it. The crowd was great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC_uR3AnIWk

FWIW my point wasn't that Honky is one of the worst ever, just that at least in WWF he was worse than Beefcake. I'm still not convinced. Maybe Rhythm and Blues Honky vs Dream Team Beefcake but that's not entirely a fair comparison, and frankly, I'd have to watch footage to decide and i'm not sure I want to do it. I do feel like HTM is someone who hasn't had a proper reevaluation since the metrics shifted a bit over the last few years. Again, I'm not sure I want to do it but I don't think anyone else is going to. To me it feels like the main arguments against HTM are: 1.) Conventional Wisdom from an earlier age. 2.) The fact he didn't like to bump. 3.) The fact that he's wasn't Ricky Steamboat/Randy Savage and didn't work their more action-packed style. That's not to say he was good or his matches were good (I don't know), but when I look at someone and see those as the main strikes against him, that raises a red flag to me. They're very much 1998 metrics.

Tugboat had a great big splash, that really cool single underhook headlock suplex thing. and was more than competent showing vulnerability during the 92 Natural Disasters babyface run, and on the flipside pretty good in their squash matches. Not a great wrestler by any means, but I don't think he rates here. I think Honky would only count in something like this if someone cared only about workrate.

How much Jet Set footage exists?

I'd rather watch Khali or Kurrgan anyday. Guys like Rocky Mountain Thunder have at least a trainwreck level of entertainment.

Who is this superhero?

Bill, I will watch TWO (2) matches that highlight this aspect that you want me to watch, sometime in the next month. Name them.

Actually, they should put Hunter in. It'll make the PPV feel a little more special but protect him since it'll be in a multiman tag. Also, you know, depth issues.

I'm kind of excited for a Survivor Series main event that's an elimination tag, actually. The difference is that Hell in a Cell is much more of a definitive feud ender while Survivor Series (With few exceptions like Hogan vs Quake) is more of a feud continuer.

That makes sense (and is pretty funny). Out of context, that was really baffling. Thanks!

Yeah, look Bill, you're way off base with this. Thatcher is totally wasted in these Indy Mat Style Whatevers. He's such a great dick heel and he can implement all of his holds and selling and what not while still bowing to the fans to piss them off and stalling outside of the ring and just being a total ass. He's wasted as the stoic whatever. The Demon match is so much fun. It's from this year too so he's still doing the dick heel thing when he's not stuck in gyms surrounded by Briscoes or whatever. I wasn't expecting Demon to give him much but he really did and it was great. There was maybe less of an overarching story to this than I would have liked. It was pretty back and forth and at times Thatcher actually looked a bit clunky on some exchanges (especially one into a crucifix pin and a few "spin me around" type moves) but in general, he moved in and out of Demon's stuff really well and had some great, hard-earned counters too. Tons of kids in the crowd which added to things as well, even if they were chanting MEX-I-CO to get behind Demon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRDizPipD6w Ok, why the heck did the crowd start laughing at poor Smiley when he tried to put that leglock on. Even Fujiwara seemed a bit baffled (if not amused) by it.

I watched the Breaks vs Bobby Ryan match with Ryan as part of the TV All Stars (he had a 6 on his back). My second Breaks match and my first Ryan one and probably a bad choice to start with but I really liked it. It was sort of a textbook case of how to work a hold and work a hold and work a hold and then have that hold payoff only to lead into a great finish that you can only get in a match with multiple falls. I love how Breaks moves around the ring and how he bumps. He just flings himself, but he's so consistent about it and the setting is so foreign to me that it really works.