Matt D

You point me to a bunch of 1993 CMLL and I'll do my best. How complete is our footage? Who's even still in CMLL in 1993? I think that might be legally dismissable as an exception since they had just bled out with the talent and front office loss?

Which just adds to the shitty feeling of "this is not a triumph." This almost feels like the sort of payoff that should kill a territory to me. The best moment was when Chigusa hugged the ref at the very end though. That was heartwarming. The nebbish scholarly bullied scribe was able to find his courage and help the heroine stand up to the bully and together they vanquished her, at least for today, etc.

I know where this leads: Parv is going to quantum leap into Sean Mooney's body (he has the ability but only into Sean Mooney for some reason) in order to stop Dunn once and for all so that Ric Flair could wear his robe in Fall of 1991 thus changing history for the better.

That's fair. I think that, for starters, I never used that analogy before and I'm only using it here in this specific way because that's what this felt like to me, and in that regard it (Being the build and the general feel of what they were going for with everything right up until the bell rang) appealed to me, maybe because it's an element I DON'T see in a lot of other wrestling? With lucha, you know I've been watching a lot of stuff on a week to week basis and while that can be frustrating, I do think I've found more in the way of serialized storytelling within the matches than I was expecting. It's in the work itself which is a side effect of the same guys working each other for months. It's not nearly as well thought out as I'd like though. I do think because not a lot of people in our circle look at lucha in this way (instead of trying to hit great matches, which is a probably more rewarding way to do it, to be honest, especially considering the footage lapses), I'm not sure if this element isn't somewhat underestimated? That said, I sure do like to amuse myself.

I watched the second Chigusa/Dump hair match. Diminishing returns played in a little, but only a little. I've got various things I want to talk about. The build is something I love, and the reason for it is because it's so outlandish. It's sort of like the world's most violent episode of Jem. I don't even like sports much. I don't. I don't want real sports build in my wrestling, not often. Sometimes it works because it's logical, but that's the only reason why I ever like it, because I like logical narratives. I want stories. I want narratives. I want fiction that is true to itself. I said before that I, when younger (and now with my kid too), watched a lot of anime, and that's very much what I liken this to. It was like a high school drama where you had the bully who has been driven to extremes but really just wants to be loved terrorizing the school, and all of the teachers (or in this case the officials and the ref) and no one can stand up to her but the one student with a huge heart and endless courage. It's that. Just with, you know, scissors and a chain (though that's not out of the realm of possibility for those either). What we have here then is this strange intersection of over the top, pure pop storytelling and this obscenely visceral "real" exploitative violence. The match itself. The structure was fine. Dump spits the Water(malt whisky?) in Chigusa's face to begin which KOs the immediate revenge element. It's all pretty minimalist. Ref threatening and violence. A few concealed weapon shots. A piledriver. The people outside trying to stop the carnage when they can only to suffer for their trouble. The hope spots all mean so much: Chigusa gets one sole comeback because the ref found the courage to stand up to Dump. Later, after the cut off, she moves out of the ring and walks around the barricade to draw more strength from the crowd. Dump comes after her with a chain though. She powers up out of a bear hug because the fans cheer for her and chant her name once the hold is locked on which is beautiful babyface wrestling. Dump pulls her off the ropes and puts her right back in it but she has the power of the fans within her now and she puts on the Scorpion with a brutally bloody face. It's to no avail though. The match cycles to a repeat of the end of the previous one. Dump brings in an object, forces Chigusa down, prances around the ring in victory, but this time Chigusa beats the count, hits a quick roll up, and the ref ignores the shoulder being blatantly up for three because it's the right thing to do. I didn't love the finish. It was good for a second match out of three, maybe, but there was no sense at all that Dump couldn't have just killed her. She had her comeuppance because of her arrogance (and maybe because the ref found his courage due to Chigusa) but you got the sense that she was playing with Chigusa the whole time and since wrestling isn't a story that ends, necessarily, that next time she got her hands on her, she'd kill her dead. It felt like a fluke, not like something meaningful that was built to. Maybe that was a way of keeping Dump's heat but it wasn't satisfying at all. Now, were this some sort of drama meant for the core audience, here's what would happen: Dump would reluctantly admit respect for Chigusa after this, stemming from the fact that she wasn't just a popular girl, but that she was TOUGH to have beat the ten count. Like I said, all Dump really ever wanted, like any true bully, was to be loved. Bull would see this as a sign of weakness, and more than that, as outright blasphemy, because while Dump was organically created, Bull was a monster of her own making, someone that Dump shaped into the person she had become. She turns on Dump, takes the faction, and Chigusa makes the save, which would then lead into some sort of crazy reluctant tag of Chigusa and Dump, with the former offering true friendship to the latter (which is a huge trope for this sort of thing) against Bull and someone even more visibly monstrous like, I don't know, Mad Maxine. I don't think that happened though.

I have a lot of 04-10 or so Rey to watch.

One of the best sellers of all time and selling is the most important part of wrestling, so…

I'm prioritizing Bryan's pre-wwe work right now but I'll double back and hit some of his WWE run in the next two years (it seems like so long ago that he wrestled). I could probably find my own complaints on the board if I search hard enough though. EDIT: A quick search shows that I did note it during the EC this year.

I want to learn more about a Iowa based territory's US Champ called The Viking

I haven't seen enough of Bryan right before he joined WWE, but I wonder if he wasn't better in 2008 than he was in 2013-14. The reason I say that is not that he had more room to breathe or anything, but instead that he might have cut out an element of his selling when he started to move towards the top of the card in order to seem more credible as a main eventer. I do think there has been pretty big flaws in his selling over the last year, year and a half, and I don't think that showed up in his older work. Anyone with me on this?

It could be that Benjamin was just terrible. I really hate that Jericho KOTR match too though.

During his ECW run, he was MUCH more likely to have a good match with someone like Kane who would rein him in than someone like Jericho or Benjamin.

I always had the sense that the crowd really felt like he was kindred to them in 91, one of their own.

I'll say that maybe my Bock theory plays into my other crazy theories.

PWO will probably keep Patera on the ballot.

I think Bock is better when not working Verne or Hogan. I liked Bock the least the earliest on the AWA set. That I'll say. It's not exactly what you're saying.

Bock is just that good.

The Rude on Regis clip is on youtube and I meant to watch it yesterday because it was mentioned on WWE countdown but I haven't gotten to it yet.

What the hell happened to Al Issacs anyway?

There was huge hype for that, even casual hype. I wasn't watching at all in 1996 but I still watched that in scramble vision.

My criteria ("Mastery (and the proof of such)" ironically, which is different than "skill") probably allows for me to include him. I have a lot more wrestling watching to do before I could tell you if I do.

That Finlay match is awesome. It's a really, really good limb vs limb sort of match. If the finish built into it just a little more it'd be one of the best matches I've seen from the last few years. As it is, it was really good. Finlay is amazing at doing all the little things. He sells his arm consistently throughout. He is so good at little leverage moves. He'll grab a nerve lock just for a half second to immobilize Thatcher so he can lock on a chinlock again since that's what he was working. The way he reaches around to kick the leg out when he's trapped in the corner is such a small thing but it's almost breathtaking. And god does he grind down on everything. He does the broad things well too. Someone in the crowd asked him to work the knee, so he jokes about it and when he finally does go for it, there's a pop. Then the guy asks him to work the triceps and he tells him to shut up. Thatcher plays his part too (he told the guy not to give Finlay ideas). i love how he never quite gets on the arm submission he wants. He sells the leg like a champ. When they're working holds, anytime Finlay hits a kick or something to loosen the hold, he does a great, realistic job of switching positions to prevent him from doing it again. I wish the camera view was closer so we could see him emote a bit more. Anyway, they had some good parallel spots and so many of the small transitions were based around the limbwork and the selling. It only ever picked up a few times but they paced it extremely well, and the finish built off of previous spots (and character based ones in the corner) but not quite enough. I didn't get why he didn't go for the crossarmbreaker one last time after Finlay hurt his shoulder in the corner. Instead, hurt leg and all, he went up to the second rope and paid for it with the match. Past that the thing was really enjoyable. Everyone should watch it.

Is this guy a Vader stand in?

I think I'm not going to revisit it. I was at Royal Rumble 2003. I gave Benoit the standing ovation. At the time, I felt very lucky that I got to see it live. I'm pretty sure I'd despise the thing now. I'll just let that one lay. I still need to watch those Angle vs Henry matches though. I'm actually pretty interested in watching Angle vs WRESTLERS I LIKE AND WILL PROBABLY MAKE MY LIST as well as RVD vs WRESTLERS I LIKE AND WILL PROBABLY MAKE MY LIST just to see how different wrestlers deal with the challenge of them.

Alright, so it looks like 2006 has more of the stuff I'll track down. Thanks.