Matt D

I'm just saying that it's tricky to say that he was best as a wrestler when he was a rookie being led around by Jerry Lawler. I'd probably be better if I was led around by 1986 Jerry Lawler in a big program tomorrow with no training than if I had a few years of experience and was wrestling someone else. Yeah, that doesn't impact the 94 match or the level of effort or lack of such later. Now I 100% admit that I use the same argument about Michaels when it comes to Rose/Somers (and later Eadie or Arn/Tully) leading him around relative to Michaels' later career where he had much more control over his matches. I just think that a green guy having the best match of his career vs 1986 Jerry Lawler doesn't mean that he might not have grown into a better wrestler later, even if he doesn't necessarily have a better match than that first one.

I honestly think the "best matches as a rookie" argument is kind of goofy in this case. I think if he had been able to work Lawler for 17 minutes in Memphis in 1993 they would have had a better match. It's an opportunity thing.

Bam Bam vs Tatanka - Royal Rumble 1994 Tatanka had a really crummy 1993, so this surprised me with how good it was. Most of the main problems were with his lack of selling. It has a really fun structure though. It starts with Tatanka trying to get Bam Bam off of his feet with Bam Bam giving just the right amount until he gets knocked down. He takes over fairly quickly with the hope spots are based off of Tatanka trying to hit top rope moves and failing. Bammer's offense looks good and is varied. Standout are the corner splash and his jumping clap kick. We get a mid match bear hug which looks okay but Tatanka doesn't sell well, especially after he fights out. Both guys hit body blocks on each other which looks really good. Then we get the war dance but Bam Bam cuts it off with an awesome kick to the back of the head. Great visual and sort of startling cut off. Bam Bam misses the moonsault which I'm not sure I've seen him do in WWF up until this point, and Tatanka hits a top rope flying body press to bring the earlier structural stuff full circle. Not a great match but very good and much better than I was expecting.

Wiskwoski/Rose vs Mayne/Bass - 2/3 falls - 12/3/77 All I saw was the third fall and the post match but man it's awesome. It starts with Rose and Ed dissecting Bass' back (presumably they had just gotten the second fall with the Robinson backbreaker; that's how these often go). Bass is really good at making things look like a fight. He gets the hot tag and Mayne gets opened up on the outside after his crazy corner bump. They REALLY target the wound. REALLY target. Wiskowski hits something like seven falling headbutts in a row and eventually they get DQed for hitting the ref during a double team. After that it totally breaks down with all four guys killing each other AND the refs (one of which being Dutch Savage so he fights back). It ends with Savage holding up the belts and Buddy cutting a great promo talking about how he's catching his own blood in his hands. This sets up a final match where the losers leave. I also saw a bloody Moondog chewing on glass. Wiskowski/Rose vs Skip Young/Snuka 2/3 falls 12/10/77 This is non title. A lot of great heel teamwork on Young. Good southern style stuff. Rose and Wiskowski were really a force here. The ref would look away for a second and that's all the time they'd need to do something heinous. Young comes back with some real fancyfoot work to take a fall. The second fall has a hot tag to Snuka and him doing his thing before picking up the win with a full nelson. Post match has Ed being a pretty dull racist heatseeker Rose being a quick on his feet racist heatseeker.

Can't say he doesn't explain himself though. It's not magic contrarianism or anything.

I really liked this match. I liked how the shine was kept pretty minimal but had some really flashy stuff that stood out so it made it seem more distinct without turning into heel in peril territory. I liked how there was a double FIP. Kid and Marty made the Quebecers look like a thousand bucks. I'm okay with the Marty FIP because they really fill it with a lot of good hope spots and somehow they're more effective due to the relative brevity of the Kid FIP if that makes sense. I think the match is plenty heated due to the natural dickishness of the Quebecers which comes through in their offense and the fire of Kid and Jannetty. Maybe the hope spots are layered a bit unevenly. That'd be my only criticism. They come frequently early on with Jannetty and then taper out for a while, but that actually makes sense as he's picking up damage. Then it really picks up again. There's basically three acts to the Marty FIP and that's kind of cool even if probably unintentional. Great hot tag with the crowd coming unglued. Kid was great in his role. You get feeling from how the heels dominate throughout the match, especially with the lack of HIP that the heels are going to lose, too. Jannetty's presence right before the finish was a little weird. He should have kept on selling the impact of the beating or something. Or gotten taken out by a cheap shot. That's the only thing which really hurts the match for me. Very good.

Rose vs Lonnie Mayne 2/3 Falls Nov 19, 1977. I really like this first fall. Mayne follows up on what Bass did and is really dogged on Buddy's arm. But he loses focus being a moondog and all, allowing Buddy to take over working on Lonnie's arm. Lonnie gets him to the outside and takes back over as it's his natural habitat. He gets Buddy back in and hits the bombs away for the fall. It's straightforward stuff but really well worked. Second fall has the turnbuckle fall apart creating a fun aura of craziness, which lets Buddy take over. There's a bit of a KOTM with Buddy not letting Mayne back in. He wears him down with some pretty good looking offense until he hits the Billy Robinson backbreaker for the pin. After the fall, Buddy keeps on Mayne until Sandy Barr (the ref) tries to stop him. Buddy nails him leading to reversed decision. Buddy keeps punishing Mayne until Bass runs in. What I think we're getting from this the most is how great a TV wrestler Buddy was at this time. He wasn't just doing this but he was doing it week in and week out setting up arena matches, carrying on feuds through his ring work, and wrestling some very different opponents.

Ok, that's surreal.

Amusingly, at one point of what little they showed of Backlund's speech on TV, he mentioned being in the Hall with such good company and they cut to a few HOFers in the crowd, and one person they cut to was Hayes.

Can you imagine if Vince lets Terry in but only if he goes in as the Red Rooster?

Butch Reed?

I think at least half of this board have transcended that for the most part just through sheer volume of what we've watched.

Are there really that many places on the net that Bret would have done as well as he did here?

I kind of want to read that Hennig article.

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...ic;f=1;t=101446 I saw that show exactly one time, in I think 1994, when I was spending a few weeks during the summer with relatives in Rhode Island. They had one of those old antenna TVs that would pull in about 5 channels, maybe a couple more if you were persistent enough or depending on the weather/time of day, and this WWF show I'd never seen before popped up on a local UHF on a Saturday afternoon. I only caught the last 15 minutes or so which mostly consisted of local promos for upcoming house shows, and I never saw it air anywhere else again. Even then I got the sense that it was the lowest rung of local WWF tv. I assume it mostly just aired on small north east/new england stations to promote house shows. I kind of love the local nature of WCW Pro Chicago, so I'd probably dig it if I could see some of it.

Welcome to the last bastion, Brian. I feel bad you didn't get to stick around for Raw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=GcMJi1JUczE Cena's post Raw promo was really good.

Good question. But, my argument (and maybe Loss's too) is that even if he turns "heel" officially, will that change? Or is it the nature of today's business? Within the scope of the WWE model, I don't think him turning can garner anymore heat overall than he gets now. Curious who the last true heel in WWE was...the guy people "pay to see lose". If he "officially" turned heel, the guys he wrestled would be different.

No opinion here. Just tossing this out: Do people buy tickets and/or tune in to watch him get beat though? Do they buy tickets to boo him? Do they buy tickets to cheer the guys he's wrestling? Especially outside the Night after Mania.

Clamoring for a triple threat really kills your fundamentalist wrestling fan gimmick I don't think it's that hard to break a three way in an interesting structural way. There are other factors that generally prevent it.

I kind of hope they go for a three way. I know grumpy people hate those but it could be a lot of fun.

I really do love the post-wrestlemania Raw crowd.

Nov 5, 1977 Buddy Rose vs Sam Bass 2/3 Falls This is pretty awesome. First fall is Bass just dissecting Buddy's arm. They had a match the week before so this is hateful but not in a brawling sort of a way. It's more to show Bass' superiority and to keep Rose from running away. Just a brutal mauling of the arm til he gets the first fall. Second fall is Buddy running while selling. Cheapshotting while selling. And then starting to work over the back. He's really good at that and it sets up the Billy Robinson Backbreaker for a completely believable second fall despite the first fall's mauling. Third fall is Buddy getting busted open and stumbling around on the outside while scratching his head dazed. It's actually really great and ends with special ref Dutch Savage tossing him in repeatedly til Ed comes out and nails Savage leading not just to a DQ but more importantly letting Dutch offer Bass his newly created cyclone fence cage. Great storytelling to set up the blowoff cage match. Really great Wiskowski promo postmatch complaining about the cage.

Who cares? This is a godsend. Rock doing the "Thank you" 20 minute goodbye speech would have been the worst.

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