Matt D

I'm kind of with Parv here. There's a huge difference between Islanders face Haku and Monstah Meng with the fro. There's also a big difference between stooging Heenan family Survivor Series 89 Haku and Faces of Fear tag Meng. That said, there's a really big difference between super fat Twin Towers Bossman and relatively lithe flak jacket Bossman.

One example: Starcade 94. Vader vs Duggan is a really peculiar match because there aren't a ton of Vader's big man spots. I'm not sure if there are any. It's much more of a brawl. I'm convinced the big reason for this was because they didn't want to dilute Sting vs Avalanche which was higher on the card.

This is a weird comparison. I'll tackle it tomorrow.

Now I feel like we should almost do a roll call of PWO issues and how they correlate to our wrestling views, like how being off ritalin for the last ten years means that I need heavy structure in order to pay attention to what's going on in a match or something.

Alright, the POST Warrior leaving stuff is what's funny.

The post-match stuff is what's funny with warrior vs heenan

Anyone with 94 observers or a knowledge of this stuff: There's a surreal episode of Raw in early February (the second of a pair of tapings) with Bastion Booger announcing with Vince, where they set up Jannetty/Ramon vs Quebecers as the second show of the next tapings. Basically, it's a pretty weird segway/interface/transition between feuds. -Marty and 1-2-3 Kid had been feuding off and on with Johnny Polo/Quebecers due to Polo's bragging. It started with a Jannetty vs Polo match on Raw where Levy hilariously worked an action-packed match instead of a cowardly manager match and peaked with the Kid/Jannetty title win on the 1st anniversary show (which was then followed by a great Owen/Bret interview where Owen was really pissy as they had previously had the title shot at the Rumble). Quebecers won the belts back a week later at MSG but they were still going to run a Kid vs Polo match post-rumble. Kid ended up out for a few weeks with an injury (which took him out of the Rumble too). -IRS had been feuding with Razor Ramon (and had repossessed his gold chains). Michaels, around a mini feud with 1-2-3 Kid, had made a pretty impressive attack on Razor at the end of 1993 (hitting a Razor's edge on the floor) and was coming out with his own IC title. Ramon defeated IRS at the Rumble in a restarted match after IRS got the fake fall due to Michaels interference. -Post Rumble, IRS had been announcing during a Raw with the 1-2-3 Kid and during a Jannetty vs Johnny Polo match, Kid steals the chains back and Jannetty gets into it with IRS. Ramon/Jannetty/Kid enter into an alliance of sorts. -The next week (second show of the taping) it's IRS vs Jannetty. Quebecers come out. Beat on Marty and get sent out. Polo comes out. Ramon comes out. Quebecers come back out and get in Ramon's face. Polo trips Jannetty to lead to IRS winning. Ramon gives Jacques the Razor's Edge post match and they announce that in two weeks it will be Jannetty/Ramon vs Quebecers for the belt. -Marty steals a bus in Europe and gets fired. -Two Weeks Later (the week after is the dog show) they run Ramon/1-2-3 Kid vs Quebecers on Raw and Michaels interferes, shifting Ramon's attention on him solely leading into the ladder match at Mania. -Quebecers move on to Men on a Mission for Mania. -1-2-3 Kid ends up in the destined-to-be-cancelled 10 man tag. My question is this: If Jannetty hadn't been fired, does anyone know if the initial plans were different? Even if not, i think it was a pretty interesting swath of booking for WWF, showing how they dealt with weekly tv demands, attempts to pop ratings/house show attendence, balancing ppv feuds and matches with their weekly stuff, and switching in and out on the fly due to injuries/firings.

The haphazard nature of expansion shows is pretty legendary. Where they'd do shows halfway across the country one night after the next instead of doing a loop. And by legendary it means i'm not entirely sure it's real, but hey, that's why Windham/Rotunda claim to have quit!

Piper/Rose/Wiskowski/Killer Tim Brooks vs Ron Starr/Adonis/George Wells/Hector Guerrero Elimination Tag. April 7, 1979 Well, THIS is pretty cool. Buddy doing a jig to Piper's bagpipes is awesome (There's also this great little 20 second segment later on where Rose and Piper are kneeling whispering strategy with each other). Shine has all the faces working on basically all the heels' arms. Piper is very much stand out here and he really adds something to the Rose/Wiskowski act (even if it's already great). Heels come back once or twice (Especially Ed who was particularly good at mixing vulnerable and dangerous), but the face stay dominant until we get some tomfoolery and a long, pretty good heat segment on Ron Starr with a lot of comebacks, dickish heel cutoffs and offense, and a great hot tag where Starr desperately avoided Rose around the ring for a minute first. The desperation made it okay he wasn't selling as much as he could, but even then, there was something punch drunk about how he did it and Rose was brilliant stooging while trying to stop him. They hit a cheap diving headbutt on Wells after the hot tag and he gets eliminated though. Second fall starts with Adonis trying desperately to get out of the heels corner as they do roundabout clubbering on him. The fight out of the corner is really good here and while it's still a bit surreal to see Adonis as a face, he owns the role here. It opens up a bit and we get a few solid cut offs. He eventually gets the hot tag to Guerrero and Hector takes on everyone until he gets double teamed and it's really just a mauling with a double dumping onto the top turnbuckle, a huge toss in the air and multiple double gutbusters. nasty stuff and eventually they pin him much to the remaining faces' chagrin. Third fall is basically the faces getting revenge on Brooks. Rose takes this visceral flying leap off the apron for a punch. Heels keep breaking up pins and what note until Wiskowski misses the diving headbutt(great call back to the fall on Wells) and nails Brooks, letting him get pinned. Piper thinks it's intentional and the heels explode as the crowd goes nuts They take Piper out with a Billy Robinson backbreaker/knee off the ropes combo and eventually, while ranting, eat the count out. Really good stuff which makes sure to protect the guys who should be protected and make the guys who look strong strong, but really, once again, everyone comes out looking great.

Can we think of a US promotion which had a comedy match every card? or almost ever card?

But can Del Rio have a good triple threat match, Dylan!

We have to differentiate by era somewhat, but do you feel like, let's say 1984/1989/1994 WWF crowds may be unique in other ways, whether it be their expectations or what they've been conditioned to enjoy or what? Would other crowds accept the 4 minute chinlock with minimal interaction/elbow up transition as willingly?

I kind of feel like he wants us to lean towards Flair. Were the fans cracking up when Magnum destroyed Flair's nice suit?

During the Rude/Piper cage matches they always did the pants falling down thing and the crowd would go nuts. Just find a Buddy Rose match.

This probably shouldn't count since it's the funniest thing ever. But look at the crowd's faces at the 2 minute mark.

Don't we have plenty of memphis where they're laughing like crazy at heel lawler? Or with face lawler at some hapless fool?

There was at least some TV build to Beverly Brothers vs Disasters. They had to earn their title shot. LOD vs Money Inc was just tossed out there. Granted, the Beverlys vs LOD feud was built up a lot better than either, but that's neither here nor there. EDIT: One thing that's amazed me in watching late 1993-early 1994 WWF for really the first time is how regional it was. They'd mention what would traditionally be the C shows (high school gyms/benefits/etc.) during the normal commentary on the syndicated shows. Not even a Fink cut in or anything or a Face to Face. I'm talking about during the matches themselves and with Vince doing it, mentioning how Doink would be at so and so school gym. They'd mention some of the bigger shows during Raw. It was a major retrenching.

Rarity is an issue as well. And novelty. And availability of competition. I might go digging. I'd be curious in seeing that argument. I also think there is something innately logical about Bulldog being a national draw which doesn't necessarily hold with the Road Warriors. Summerslam 1992 was promoted with Bulldog as the returning hero going for the belt as a big thing. LOD were buried in a feudless nothing match with Money Inc. It was a trough, as you like to say. The Tag Team Title match was Natural Disasters vs Beverly Brothers (which is actually a really good match).

My general feeling is that the big draw in Europe at that time was "The WWF," not any specific talent.

I've watched a lot of 84 Piper lately, which doesn't help matters, even if Deano's probably watched a bunch too.

Totally subjective. You had to go and toss Demolition in it though! I can respect that you feel that's a part of the act that isn't over the top. It strikes me as trying too hard, but even that is better than not trying at all. I honestly think that the blandness of elements of the roster are such that he doesn't need to go nearly as far to stand out. I also don't think the roster is nearly as bland as it was a few years ago.

By doing something fundamental soundly and logically in a sea of shitty heel-in-peril wrestling instead of doing kahraazzzzy jazz hands in a sea of boring guys who do nothing to stand out? I don't totally see the comparison here. Everyone else that cares about Demolition cares about the shtick. I care about other things. Ambrose is mostly Shtick. I think he does it mostly well. I think he goes over the top sometimes and the hand things are one of those times.

Moreover, they wasted the brawling on HHH vs Brock when it's really what Cena vs Rock needed.

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - September 11, 1992 (9,000) Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware defeated Skinner & Barry Horowitz when Koko pinned Horowitz The Mountie pinned Tito Santana WWF Tag Team Champions Natural Disasters defeated the Beverly Brothers Shawn Michaels pinned Virgil Razor Ramon pinned Randy Savage after Ric Flair came ringside (Razor's MSG debut) Bret Hart pinned Papa Shango The Undertaker defeated WWF World Champion Ric Flair via disqualification WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - November 28, 1992 (12,300) Lance Cassidy pinned the Brooklyn Brawler Crush defeated Repo Man via submission with the head vice Bob Backlund pinned Rick Martel with a small package (Backlund's MSG return after more than an 8 year absence) The Nasty Boys defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via disqualification when Dibiase shoved Jerry Saggs off the top The Big Bossman pinned Kamala after Kamala accidentally hit Kimchee; after the bout, Kamala chased Harvey Wippleman and Kimchee backstage Max Moon defeated Terry Taylor The Undertaker defeated Nailz at the 12-minute mark with the chokeslam Looking at this, why do people think the second card drew so much more than the first? Is it just the Thanksgiving proximity (which was the 26th)? Did that matter still in 1992? Backlund? I guess the Nasty Boys turn just happened, but I hardly think that was THAT hot an angle. the first card had Savage vs Ramon and Flair vs Undertaker, plus Bret. It was probably just the Thanksgiving weekend thing, right? EDIT: there's a bump like that for that weekend in MSG compared to the last show in 1990 and 1991 too, so that's probably the case, card be damned.

I have no clue why that bothers people. I think it's a distinct, neat part of his act I don't buy it. It comes off as him trying to come up with a distinct, neat part for his act instead of actually being a distinct, neat part of his act.