Matt D

I find it funny that we have so opposite a view of analyzing wrestling. It's not like we can't generally have conversations with each other either. I care most about trends over a large number of matches and elements to be found when matches are pulled apart. A segment in a match might mean far more to me than the match itself. And that same sort of segment done differently over a number of matches would mean more to me than the matches themselves. Sorry. It just struck me as interesting.

Does anyone like Raven in ring? I think maybe 1-2 people on the board do. I frigging love Levy in Memphis in 93 on interview/commentary. He's hilarious. I really like the Levy/Sullivan shoot too since he's such a fan of Sullivan and it shows.

Presumably, this is sort of a self-aware/PWO Conventional Wisdom thing thing, so we're not all going to go "I DON'T LIKE DAVEY RICHARDS" as if that's a big deal. Likewise Demolition since a few of us are outliers there. Granted, some of that makes it tough. And then there are levels. I think Flair's great. I just don't like him as the GOAT. For instance. It doesn't mean he's not great at what he does and that what he does isn't very impressive. I don't think the Steiners early 90s stuff has aged very well. OR are we all on the same page with that now?

Agreed, but did Super Astro ever use his as an offensive move? I feel like it'd be unfair to hold Rey to the same standard because he can't go as hard and fast as possible with it without risking kicking the other guy's head in. I like a lot of 1990s WWF, and I don't know why the spot where one guy jumps from the second turnbuckle onto the other guy's outstretched foot had the longevity that it did. It was a near religious moment when I saw a match in 89 where Tully actually hit a second rope axe-handle onto a prone guy.

I've seen a decent amount of Murdoch and I'm not sure I've seen a match I'd consider Lazy. I know the mindset's been around forever. Are there token matches people point to or is it just sort of a "Well, those weren't taped of course, but Dave saw four house show matches in 1983" thing.

I tend to agree though I do admit that a lot of his early match work has teases and attempts but I do find them logical enough, and clever.

The whole thing with the 619 isn't the actual 619 but the set ups. When you actually watch Rey's matches, you see that his entire gameplan is to get his opponents into that position. It's strategy, not powerbombing kidman or whatever. He has matches built around that.

Aw, you didn't include the hype promo for Summerslam where all the wrestlers come down from the crowd with tiny American flags and Yokozuna covers his ears. The best part of that is Rick Steiner and the Bushwhackers interacting

Are Masters and Gallows in TNA? I can't keep track anymore.

I hate the Heavenly Bodies move where they assist a ddt with a clothesline.

Like when they signed Smothers and Tony Anthony. Except for, y'know more like signing Tom Brandi.

that they didn't run with it just made Ambrose look desperate and low grade

And again, to me it's not that he does the same thing, but HOW he utilizes the same things.

The Post-Match thing is my least favorite wrestling thing ever maybe

Barbarian's Rope Walk Elbow Drop Miss. He never hits it. Ever.

It's not about if they "Are" going to be worked the same way but if they were. And the answer is that I have to watch them again and compare and contrast. And I'm totally game on doing this sometime in the next 3-4 months, Absolutely. On paper, they shouldn't be, so it'll be really telling what a tight look at them next to each other reveals.

I actually always dug the Claw > Punch. The punch was sort of silly but he immobilized the opponent temporarily with the Claw. Kerry had a way of making it look like magic.

We obviously used time travel there.

I think this is a great exhibition of telling a very specific narrative. I don't think it's a great match.

I think you're wrong. You can have a pattern and it can be incoherent when analyzed. You can do the same stuff and it can be a poor, disjointed narrative. You're still doing the same stuff. You're still telling the same narrative. It's just not a very good, complete one. I'd point to Bockwinkel as someone who is the opposite. Not only did he work tons of wildly different, compelling matches with different guys but he started almost every match with a game plan, and a lot of the time those game plans would be very different depending on who he was wrestling and where they were in a feud. Did he go back to the King of the Mountain segments a lot? Sure, but he made it work and make sense within the match in a far more organic way than a lot of Flair's transitions and control segments. I'm perfectly fine with someone doing the same things. But you're not the greatest of all time unless you do the same things in different ways. That's where I think Flair is lacking compared to Bockwinkel or even Bret, who while he has other flaws that knock him out of contention, was masterful in doing the same things different ways.

I could write a thousand words about How I Learned to Love the 619 pretty easily.

No one else in the history of wrestling faced a greater variety of opponents over such a long period of time and in so many places and did the same three matches over and over again. I'm partially kidding, but only partially. It's an argument.

Honestly? What hurt me the most with Flair was A) more and more matches being easily available and his shoot. It was very much a pull back of the curtain and it opened my eyes to negative elements of his wrestling that I had been glossing over. I can't "unsee" them now, if that makes any sense.

I was thinking about Mike Shaw's perils of showing up when he did in 93 (I know. The things I think about). Earthquake was on his way out, yes, and Typhoon soon after, but the roster had Yokozuna, Bam Bam, Kamala, Hughes, with Mabel about to come in. What the heck COULD they do with him but something like Booger. It made me think of the diversity of the roster, mainly, and the complaints over the last five years that WWE had a huge deficit in that area. This made me wonder: have we finally hit the point where people can no longer reasonably complain about the WWE roster being full of guys who all look the same?