WCW ongoing thread

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah but he was fat and easily blown up at that point too. Watch some of the matches when he had the NWA belt in 93. I see Windham as a guy who always struggled with his fitness and weight.

[El-P]

I'm talking about 1992, and thus far, he's just fine with stamina. Windham was a machine and the most graceful wrestler I've ever seen this side of Misawa and Shinzaki. No matter if he put on a little weight, he was amazing to watch. From memory 1993 is the beginning of him sliding down indeed, although fat Windham is still really good.

[JerryvonKramer]

Oh no doubting that. That suplex into a pin thing he does is one of the smoothest moves by anyone ever. As I work through Will's awesome Horseman set I'm really looking forward to seeing some more peak Windham, especially the much raved about Flair matches.

 

But the other thing to remember about Windham in 92 going long is that he was injured - you can't expect a guy to go 30 minutes+ with a taped hand, am I right?

 

[El-P]

Well, there is that too.

The Flair matches are awesome. I'd argue that in 1988, Windham was better than Flair in their matches.

[Loss]

Don't know why you think Windham can do long matches, especially with a 1992 Steve Austin.

Maybe because he did a lot of long matches in 1992 with Steve Austin?

[Loss]

Yeah but he was fat and easily blown up at that point too. Watch some of the matches when he had the NWA belt in 93. I see Windham as a guy who always struggled with his fitness and weight.

That's just not true. At all. Maybe he struggled with his appearance, but it's not fair to say he was out of shape. He worked a lot of long matches during 1992-1993 that are really good, with guys like Austin, Steamboat and Arn, and tags against Doc/Gordy and Austin/Doc.

[JerryvonKramer]

We've argued about this before, but to me he looks out of breath after about the 10 minute mark around that time. That said, he has roughly the same bodytype and shape as Jumbo, who never really looks blown up, so maybe it was just me.

[ohtani's jacket]

Don't know why you think Windham can do long matches, especially with a 1992 Steve Austin.

Maybe because he did a lot of long matches in 1992 with Steve Austin?

 

Yeah, and none of them were any good. Windham was better at short TV matches and tag matches than long singles matches.

[El-P]

05/09/92: Barry Windham defeated WCW TV Champion Steve Austin (w/ Paul E. Dangerously) to win the title in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match; fall #1: Windham pinned Austin at 10:57; fall #2: Austin pinned Windham at 4:57; fall #3: Windham pinned Austin at 5:40

Good match, but it's hampered by two things : the 2/3 falls gimmick that split the match in three parts, two of which are a bit short, the last fall falling a bit flat; Steve Austin is not one guy that can go too long on single and resorts to restholds a little too much. They did work their share of headlock spot in the first fall, but they did work the holds and always were moving and struggling with them, so it wasn't restholds per say. Actually they did a good job making the atch look like a struggle. Windham's selling and facials are great. Too bad the last fall felt a bit anticlimatic. All in all, I think a regular 20 minutes match would have been better, as they could have saved a few spots for good nearfalls.

[Mad Dog]

We've argued about this before, but to me he looks out of breath after about the 10 minute mark around that time. That said, he has roughly the same bodytype and shape as Jumbo, who never really looks blown up, so maybe it was just me.

Looking out of breath and being blown up are two different things though. I start huffing and puffing really quick when I exercise but I have good stamina, I just start sucking wind really quick.

[El-P]

05/16/92: Scotty Flamingo defeated Johnny B. Badd in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1

Better than it looks on paper. Flamingo's offense is really weak looking at this point, but his best asset is bumping, showing ass and doing some comedic stuff too like the classic spot of him getting hung by the feet on the tope rope and taking an upside down bump to the floor. First fall looks weak and fake, from a simple headlock reversal while holding the tights, but the second one is pretty good, Badd's sunset flip out of the third rope always looked great. Levy does a nice job selling for Badd's punches during the third fall. Kinda sloppy finish though. Decent match, which I didn't except from those two at this stage, and here the 2/3 falls kinda worked well enough to me.

[El-P]

05/23/92: Rick Steamboat & Nikita Koloff & Dustin Rhodes defeated Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton & & Larry Zbyszko at around the 23-minute mark in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1; fall #1: Steamboat pinned Zbyszko; fall #2: Rhodes was disqualified; fall #3: Koloff pinned Anderson

Probably the best 2/3 falls match on WCW TV thus far. Works better with more time and more men in the ring. It also helped that they were able to tell stories, like working on Steamboat's broken nose and Zbyszko fucking up several times. Koloff brings nothing to the match.

[El-P]

06/06/92: WCW TV Champion Barry Windham defeated Arn Anderson in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match

Easily the best match of the 2/3 bunch, and probably my favourite TV match of the year thus far. Very close with Arn vs Dustin from early January. Very old-school, very oriented of working a body part, but never got boring. The 2/3 stip works very well here becaus eof the time given to the match and the way they used their highspots. Barry and Arn probably are the two best TV wrestlers that year so far, and they deliver in spades here. Gotta love the pacing and selling. Cheap finish, but the match itself is excellent.

[El-P]

Watching in context, it's amazing how quickly Watts made WCW TV boring after the great first 6 months of 1992.

[El-P]

It's no myth that WCW under Watts really took a nosedive in term of exctiment. The Dangerous Alliance basically fizzling out is extremely frustrating, coming off the amazing Wargames and the Zbyszko turn. The tope rope rules was obviously going to be worked into an angle at some point, but it really hampered guys like Z-Man, Pillman, even Steamboat. There's a very noticeable incentive on working more matwork based matches, which can be good with workers who do know how, but when every match goes strictly on the mat, it just looks artificial and dated. Funny to see Bobby Eaton & Arn Anderson work an old time Anderson match. Funny but frustrating too, although Eaton can do that style too. Watts' "pure sport" announcing comes off forced. There was a few good things with Watts, such as more clean loss (including the Steiners, Sting and Vader), and the fact heels could challenge each other instead of having an invisible wall between heel and faces, but overall, the product really isn't that much fun anymore. And Erik Watts hasn't showed up yet.

Ron Simmons's win of the world title sure was a hot moment, but I think the lack of built hurt him. A few weeks before he was teaming with JYD on the undercard, and all of a sudden he's the world champ. Of course the fact he'll be fed the freaking Barbarian (whom I enjoy as a worker but who just doesn't belong at the main event level) won't help. Jake Roberts gives a little bit of excitement back, cuting great promos. WWF really dropped the ball releasing heel Jake so quickly, he was a hot character. Rude and Austin still carry the belts with pride and honor, well, they have solid reigns and feuds, respectively with Nikita and Steamboat, so that's good. But Paul E. really got screwed in the process by Watts, he's playing utilities at this point. But there's an odd feeling of dullness coming from the shows after an exciting first half of 1992. Not much in term of really good matches on TV either, especially during the summer.

[rovert]

Seen Bash at the Beach 1992 years and years ago at this stage. Over on the Torch site Wade is putting up old radio shows and newsletters from era. The latest one was a review of Bash at the Beach 1992. Ending the PPV with a Steiners/Gordy & Williams 30 minute time limit draw instead of Rude/Steamboat or Sting/Cactus was absolute insanity additionally it bore no relationship to the TV build at all. It was kind of quaint hearing Wade, Bruce and the callers complain about a bikini contest being on a Wrestling show too.

[JerryvonKramer]

I tend to attribute the awesomeness of the first half of 92 upto and including Beach Blast to Kip Allen Frey and the boring after that to Watts.

[El-P]

Bash at the Beach 92 had a lot of good stuff, but the booking was head-scratching to say the least. Two non titles match in Sting vs Cactus and Steamboat vs Rude (which was basically the final payoff of their big feud). Two 30 minutes match on the same show, including one with Doc & Gordy who weren't over with WCW crowds. The Great American Bash was even worse in term of build, well, outside of Vader vs Sting it was basically not built at all on TV, and the entire PPV save for the title match was the NWA tag title tournament. And once again, tons of really long matches which totally drained the crowd.

Then of course Halloween Havoc is coming with the most idiotic gimmick possible for Sting & Jake and Ron Simmons vs Barbarian as the title match. And, if my memory serves me right, another totally overlong tag titles match in which Austin took Gordy's place (OD I would guess), and the infamous Rude vs Chono match. Watts had a terrible track record in term of putting together PPV's for WCW.

[Loss]

This is not to defend Watts, but I think it took him six months just to get a grasp of the current wrestling landscape. By the beginning of '93, he has gotten the Doc and Gordy nonsense out of his system, abandoned the Simmons push and gotten rid of has beens like Dick Slater. Now, he is bringing in guys like Regal and Scorpio, pushing Barry Windham to the top, and doing angles with the Rock & Roll Express and Jim Cornette. He had made arrangements for Flair to come in as well. They were moving in a much better direction post-Starrcade '92, and the build to SuperBrawl III, which was really well done, was all his.

 

Also, I can't guarantee that he would have been a success, but had Watts been told that his goal was to be competitive with the WWF instead of being told his goal was to cut costs however necessary, we likely would have had a different end result.

 

Watts was aiming to get Heyman fired the moment he came through the door, as Frey negotiated a ridiculous contract for him, something like $250,000 a year. They hired a private investigator to follow him on the road and found him falsifying expense reports, and there you go.

[Loss]

Halloween Havoc actually drew really well and should have been much better than it was. Doc and Gordy had just had a great match with Windham and Rhodes on TV, so doing so on PPV should have been a given, but Gordy was fired just before the show. Rude and Chono had the great match in New Japan two months prior, and a rematch here should have been excellent. Steamboat and Pillman should have been a good match too, with Sting/Jake a hot main event. I blame the wrestlers more than Watts for how that show turned out.

[El-P]

Well you're giving me some hope for my eventual 1993 watch, but I'm stuck before Clash 20, and it's rather a chore going through WCW TV at this point. Not Ole Anderson 90 bad but still...

Didn't know that story about Paul E.. Well, it sucks, Paul E. brought tons of heat to the product. Of course the big issue is that as much as the TV was fun, nothing really drew in early 92.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just pulled this from my old and now off-line GAB 92 review:

 

One thing that I can't ignore is how much Bill Watts pushed "Bam Bam" Terry Gordy and Dr .Death Williams. Some pointers:

 

1. At Beach Blast '92 he put Steiners vs. Gordy and Williams as the main event, despite Sting vs. Cactus Jack for the World Title and Steamboat vs. Rude for the US title being on the card. In that match they wrestled the Steiners to a time limit draw BUT they dominated them for 30 minutes and were made to look like the HARDEST MEN IN THE WORLD. I mean seriously, they beat the crap out of the Steiners.

 

2. A few months later, one week before the Great American Bash, they finally beat the Steiners for the WCW Tag Titles.

 

3. Then, at the Great American Bash, there is a big tag tournament for -- confusingly -- the NWA World Tag Titles. Gordy and Williams are built up to be the big favourites going into the tournament. They dominate in every match they are in. The final is Barry Windham and Dustin Rhodes vs. Gordy and Williams. Now, I've just watched a MEGA-OVER Sting lose the World Title to Vader. I'm thinking to myself "Windham and Rhodes have to go over in an upset here". But no, Gordy and Williams dominate again and Rhodes gets pinned after a stiff clothesline. So Gordy and Williams now have BOTH the WCW and NWA Tag Titles.

 

Seriously, what the hell? What was Watts thinking here?

[Loss]

Well you're giving me some hope for my eventual 1993 watch, but I'm stuck before Clash 20, and it's rather a chore going through WCW TV at this point. Not Ole Anderson 90 bad but still...

Didn't know that story about Paul E.. Well, it sucks, Paul E. brought tons of heat to the product. Of course the big issue is that as much as the TV was fun, nothing really drew in early 92.

Don't get too excited about '93. January and February are lots of fun, then it nosedives fast, with a few bright spots here and there.

 

One thing that I can't ignore is how much Bill Watts pushed "Bam Bam" Terry Gordy and Dr .Death Williams. Some pointers:

 

1. At Beach Blast '92 he put Steiners vs. Gordy and Williams as the main event, despite Sting vs. Cactus Jack for the World Title and Steamboat vs. Rude for the US title being on the card. In that match they wrestled the Steiners to a time limit draw BUT they dominated them for 30 minutes and were made to look like the HARDEST MEN IN THE WORLD. I mean seriously, they beat the crap out of the Steiners.

 

2. A few months later, one week before the Great American Bash, they finally beat the Steiners for the WCW Tag Titles.

 

3. Then, at the Great American Bash, there is a big tag tournament for -- confusingly -- the NWA World Tag Titles. Gordy and Williams are built up to be the big favourites going into the tournament. They dominate in every match they are in. The final is Barry Windham and Dustin Rhodes vs. Gordy and Williams. Now, I've just watched a MEGA-OVER Sting lose the World Title to Vader. I'm thinking to myself "Windham and Rhodes have to go over in an upset here". But no, Gordy and Williams dominate again and Rhodes gets pinned after a stiff clothesline. So Gordy and Williams now have BOTH the WCW and NWA Tag Titles.

 

Seriously, what the hell? What was Watts thinking here?

Watts was a big believer in heels getting clean pinfalls. He liked strong heels. From reading WONs at the time, he felt like they needed a few shows to re-educate people on the style - both in booking and wrestling - and if resulted in a few disappointing shows in the short term, so be it.

 

Similar to the top rope ban. He felt that wrestlers jumping off the top didn't get any heat, so he thought by taking it away for a few months, those moves would be so over because people would miss them so much that he could bring them back in a few months and make them mean something again. Absence making the heart grow fonder.

 

I'm not saying he's right about all of this stuff, but I like that a wrestling promoter in the U.S. gave some real thought to this stuff, because I can't remember a time since when anyone has.

[JerryvonKramer]

Any truth to the old claims that Watts always told the Japanese workers to tone it down on US shows which why, for example, Rude vs Chono sucked?

 

And Loss, point taken about Watts reeducating fans and giving heels clean wins, but Jesus Christ, Gordy and Williams probably got more clean wins than Luger did in his WWF monster push. Like they've already hammered the Steiners, already won the WCW titles, do they have to bulldozer the entire roster in a tournament for ANOTHER set of World titles as well? It's a bit extreme isn't it.

[Loss]

The push was too extreme, for sure. Watts seemed to learn from it, and had them drop both sets of titles by the end of September. I agree that he pushed them way too hard. What's disappointing is that he made that mistake right out of the gate. It may not have seemed such a big deal had he built up some good will with his new vision first. It would just be a misfire instead of something that set the tone for his entire regime.