WCW ongoing thread

[El-P]

I officialy lost my mind. I thought the build to Hogan & Bischoff vs DDP & Leno was actually really efficient, with some terrific Hogan promos and Bischoff being amazingly annoying. And I thought the match worked to boot... Like I said, I may have lost my mind, but there it is...

[smkelly]

Goldberg was the man for sure. Listen to the crowds then, they were super loud and popped for long periods of times. Pretty amazing how WCW blew it.

He was the man indeed. I don't know who to blame more, Nash, Hogan, or Bischoff, or all of them equally.

 

When was the Sting vs. DDP World title match? IIRC, it was on Nitro, and was an excellent TV match.

[Strummer]

I officialy lost my mind. I thought the build to Hogan & Bischoff vs DDP & Leno was actually really efficient, with some terrific Hogan promos and Bischoff being amazingly annoying. And I thought the match worked to boot... Like I said, I may have lost my mind, but there it is...

 

Hogan was absolutely hilarious in this feud. I don't think he meant to be but his mannerisms and selling had me rolling at the time. Everyone else was pretty terrible (especially Bischoff)

[El-P]

When was the Sting vs. DDP World title match? IIRC, it was on Nitro, and was an excellent TV match.

I think it happened in 1999.

[Jingus]

Yeah, right after Spring Stampede 99.

[El-P]

Amazing how things fell apart during the Summer of 98. They had a strong undercard until mid-spring, then they went overboard with Jericho getting his title back on technicality, although it still made for good promos and matches. But Booker T got injured and the TV title went into Stevie Ray for bullshit reasons. Benoit was nowhere to be seen, but Steve McMicheal came back. Disco Inferno & Alex Wright as the dancing fools were a funny act but they got stuck with Public Enemy. The crazy Chavo storyline went nowhere after the hair match. Really, the only strong undercard storyline left was Raven vs Saturn vs Kanyon.

Bret Hart as a manipulative heel is much more fun that I remembered. He's giving Lex Luger his best match since probably the Arn Anderson one in 95. Bret was awesome at being a douchebag during this period.

We get Hacksaw Duggan in a mini-feud with Barbarian, which I can always watch. Rey Mysterio is back, and it's a welcome addition. Funny, for all the talk of how Chris Jericho was held back, he sure was pushed hard during the whole year, as on the day after he loses the cruiserweight title for good to Juvi, he gets the TV title.

Goldberg cutting promos, not a very good idea. Plus the guy mostly bores me unless it's a really important match.

Can't wait to revisit the Warrior feud... trainwreck incoming...

[El-P]

I don't know if there was a booking commitee change around the summer of 98, or if Sullivan simply jumped the shark, but the product took a huge nosedive around that point. It seems like they totally forgot why their product was so efficient a few years and even months ago, stars on top and strong undercard with good matches. The strong undercard is gone, the shows are one nWo segment after another, mostly with guys nobody cares about, Norton, Brian Adams, shitty workers like Konnan or Stevie Ray, the same interviews each week... The Steiner/Bagwell vs Rick Steiner feud had so much potential, but they turned it into a complete joke with terrible comedy segments and not delivering the match on PPV. After being booked as something important, the TV title seems like an aftertought, probably hurt by the Stevie Ray debacle. The US title basically became meaningless once Goldberg got it, and although Bret Hart had a streak of good US title match, it doesn't seem like it's anything more than a prop at this point. The cruiserweight title, after being hot for most of the year, is kinda forgotten once Juvi finally gets it from Jericho. And god, they put Evan Karagias on TV, and this guy was rotten. Seriously has two of the worst matches of the year against super workers Kaz Hayashi and Juvi, he's just godawful. Add to that the Warrior debacle, which was as terrible as I remembered, no redeeming qualities whatsoever, not even in a "so bad it's good" way.

Really, the only good thing on TV at this point is the Raven vs Saturn feud. And the tease of a Horsemen comeback delivers some excellent Arn Anderson promos. The rest of the product is either dull or plain terrible.

[Loss]

Sullivan had been booking for about three years straight at this point without a break. It was time to put someone else in that role for a couple of years. I think he was just burned out. Booking WCW at this time was an unenviable task, despite having a tremendous roster with endless possibilities.

[Strummer]

Summer of 98 WCW is terrible and was when I really gave up on the product. I still watched Nitro and Thunder most weeks but there was no emotional investment. Didn't order one PPV that year. Starrcade 97 was the last WCW PPV I bought

[Strummer]

as an aside didn't Dusty briefly get the book around this time? I kind of figured this because Meng all of a sudden got a push again. I think he booked Road Wild 98 if I'm not mistaken (the Barbarian-Meng match might be a give away!)

[Loss]

I know he did in '99 for a brief spell when it became painfully obvious Nash needed help.

[El-P]

as an aside didn't Dusty briefly get the book around this time? I kind of figured this because Meng all of a sudden got a push again. I think he booked Road Wild 98 if I'm not mistaken (the Barbarian-Meng match might be a give away!)

The Meng push was actually kinda fun, but Road Wild was a pretty bad PPV. No build for the undercard, some really shitty matches (McMichael vs Brian Adams, Chavo vs Stevie Ray, Disco & Alex Wright vs PE).

When did Nash begin to book exactly ?

[Loss]

Nash started booking around the time of Hogan's worked retirement, I want to say maybe the week before World War 3 in '98.

[El-P]

Nash started booking around the time of Hogan's worked retirement, I want to say maybe the week before World War 3 in '98.

Interesting. Nash pretends he didn't book before Starrcade (read : "I didn't put myself over Goldberg"). It'll take me some will to go trough the rest of the year. Although I know some good shit with Eddie is coming up eventually.

[El-P]

September :

_Man, that Warrior feud is unbearable, the worst thing I've seen thus far, by a huge margin. Not even "so bad it's good", it's just plain godawful, not even funny in a ridiculous way.

_Way to fuck up Bret Hart even more. After hitting his stride as a manipulative heel, having really good match and delivering really good promos, they turn him face again for zero reasons, and he does look awkward apologizing to the fans for his attitude, and just plain stupid and weak having been "put on the wrong tracks" by Hogan. Bret really had no chance of making it in WCW, the way they booked him was just terrible.

_Raven vs Saturn may be my favourite feud of the year thus far. Their match at Fall brawl is amazing in how they got the crowd rocking, with at least 4 credible false finishes. The pop Kidman got when he betrayed Raven was huge. The next day he wins the cruiserweight title (Juvi ended up being nothing but a transition champ), and once again gets a huge pop. In two days, they made Kidman *over* as a face.

_Ernest Miller in my TV, and although he's finding his niche as a heel, it means more bad matches (expect a good one with Psychosis).

_Ric Flair comeback was clearly the highlight of the year in WCW. Just an awesome moment of TV, just a vibrant, for the ages promo. This Horsemen comeback was really well built, with some of the best promos of the year from Anderson, Flair and Bischoff.

_Jericho doing the Goldberg entrance and losing his way through the building was way more funny than he should have been. You get the feeling Jerich was really coming up with his own stuff.

_Wrath, looking like Adam Bomb again after getting rid of the Mortal Kombat outfit, is getting a big push as a monster. I don't remember if that went anywhere, but he's more fun to watch than Goldie to me. Yeah, Goldie's boring me.

_Disco Inferno trying to make the weight to compete for the cruiserweight title = fun. Serious anti-american Alex Wright challenging other european wrestlers = fun. Norman Smiley showing up = fun, although the crowd doesn't know how to react to him at this point.

_Nick Densmore is a jobber.

_They run quite a bit of "shoot angle" apart from Flair's comeback : Eddie Guerrero cutting s "shoot" promo on Bischoff, which was awkward as hell and not very good at all, complete with throwing coffee over himself (ah, the joy of learning those insider infos back in the days), and Scott Hall showing up "drunk", which is funny once, but gets annoying and nowhere fast.

Well, it's a bit better than during the summer thanks to Flair's comeback which was exciting, and the undercard getting a bit better.

[El-P]

Actually, after watching Hogan vs Bret from the last Nitro of September, the whole "Bret shows that he truly respect Sting and turns face" deal ended up being a swerve. Which make the awkward and weak face interview quite cool in retrospect, because Bret really looks like a total asshole now. I've been swerved by WCW 13 years after the fact, I feel a bit like an idiot... But I'm glad Bret is still a heel, I totally forgot how his career went in WCW so I really watch this unfolds like it's the first time I see it.

[Kronos]

Goldberg vs Hogan - Nitro, 7/6/98

 

Been meaning to watch this one forever. Goldberg's entrance gives me chills, and the size of the crowd makes me the millionth person to wonder: Why the Blue He'll did they give away this match on free tv?

 

Not a particularly special match from a technical standpoint. Hogan does all the work, while Goldberg just seems confused. A perfect example is a chain wrestling sequence where Hogan goes into a hammerlock. G reverses into his own hammerlock, at which point he proceeds to stand there holding the arm and clearly unsure what to do. They're fortunate we get the shot from behind, or the camera would likely have picked up a "What now?" expression. In the end, Hogan gets distracted by some confusing runins, setting up for the spear and vertical suplex. Goldberg knew how to work the crowd with his spear, jumping up and roaring like Leonidas. The crowd is nuts, and the spectacle covers up the fact that we got about 10 min of beginner level work.

 

Great theater.

[El-P]

Remember the push Wrath got from September ? He basically got the Goldberg treatment, beating guys every week, getting over quite nicely his finisher, being prepared for basically some big match down the stretch with Goldberg, I guess. So what does Kevin Nash do after winning WWIII ? He beats the guy, clean, on Nitro. End of streak. I feel this Kevin Nash booked WCW will be kinda fun for all the wrong reasons. When did Nash lost the booking power ? I think he lost it way before Russo came in, but I could be wrong.

[tomk]

The thing about the Wrath push was that he was given these long never ending squashes, where he would beat a guy for 7 plus boring minutes. Opponent would get less offense than Goldberg opponent (or even a Sid opponent)but Wraith would take forever to finish them.

[El-P]

Because Wrath, unlike Goldberg, actually had impressive moves to showcase, and he got over because of it. And really, these matches were not long at all, no way any of these got to seven minutes, these were still relatively short squashes. I would say 2 or 3 minutes at best. And after some point Wrath nearly only did the Meltdown.

The following week, Wrath gets a super short squash, but he doesn't get the same reaction as before Nash beat him. Nice job. And surprisingly Konnan beats Jericho for the TV belt, despite the fact Jericho was in a feud with Bobby Duncum Jr. Oh, Nash, gotta love you booking for your friends.

[Jingus]

When did Nash lost the booking power ? I think he lost it way before Russo came in, but I could be wrong.

He claimed that he booked himself to be retired in the Road Wild match, so if that's true, no more than two months before Russo arrived.

[tomk]

Goldberg vs Hogan - Nitro, 7/6/98

 

Been meaning to watch this one forever. Goldberg's entrance gives me chills, and the size of the crowd makes me the millionth person to wonder: Why the Blue He'll did they give away this match on free tv?

 

Not a particularly special match from a technical standpoint. Hogan does all the work, while Goldberg just seems confused. A perfect example is a chain wrestling sequence where Hogan goes into a hammerlock. G reverses into his own hammerlock, at which point he proceeds to stand there holding the arm and clearly unsure what to do. They're fortunate we get the shot from behind, or the camera would likely have picked up a "What now?" expression. In the end, Hogan gets distracted by some confusing runins, setting up for the spear and vertical suplex. Goldberg knew how to work the crowd with his spear, jumping up and roaring like Leonidas. The crowd is nuts, and the spectacle covers up the fact that we got about 10 min of beginner level work.

 

Great theater.

Somewhere in Belgium (if my memory is right) a group of artists taught a group of mentally/developmentally disabled people how to make linocuts and then showed them a Jean Claud Van damme movie and Hogan v Goldberg and let them make linocuts which were later pieced together as a comic book and art exhibit.

 

Remember the results being better and less exploitative than that sounds. Been looking for it for days and it's not easy to find that kind of thing on the web when you can't read or write french and Jerome maybe able to correct me on any of that but I think this is the website for that project:

 

http://www.fremok.org/site.php?type=P&id=80

[El-P]

Somewhere in Belgium (if my memory is right) a group of artists taught a group of mentally/developmentally disabled people how to make linocuts and then showed them a Jean Claud Van damme movie and Hogan v Goldberg and let them make linocuts which were later pieced together as a comic book and art exhibit.

 

Remember the results being better and less exploitative than that sounds. Been looking for it for days and it's not easy to find that kind of thing on the web when you can't read or write french and Jerome maybe able to correct me on any of that but I think this is the website for that project:

 

http://www.fremok.org/site.php?type=P&id=80

That's one kind of a project. It's pretty much what you described.

 

 

Well, finally ended my 1998 WCW watch, I got totally burned out by the end, and really, Nash's booking was bad from the get-go. And although I never cared for Goldberg myself, his loss to Nash, watched in context, is even worse and nonsensical than I remembered. People didn't want to see Nash beat Goldberg. And delivering the ultimate pay-off of Bischoff vs Flair on Notro following Starrcade was retarded. Of course the nadir would be reached on the first show on 1999, but really, Nash didn't bring anything interesting to the table as far as booking went. The product didn't feel fresher at all, and the PPV's were built as badly as they were during the last months of Sullivan's stint. But Sullivan still delivered some excellent Nitros during that time (despite having to deal with some godawful Warrior sequences). The one good new thing on the undercard during that time was Norman Smiley's small push, as he heeled up his game a bit. I love Norman Smiley. But man, they did ruin their only hope at making it big again by fucking up Goldy's streak, as hot as he was, you get the feeling he could have gone unbeaten until Starrcade 1999.

And I doubt I'll do 1999 anytime soon. Gotta watch something different.

[khawk20]

People didn't want to see Nash beat Goldberg.

I remember this vividly because I was watching it at a bar (the bars here used to show the PPV's religiously, at multiple locations, and the crowds were huge), and when Nash won, at least three people threw something at the screen and one guy broke the door rushing out of the bar pissed off...slam-and smash.

 

It was one of theose moments that you imagined being repeated every place that the card was being broadcast, honestly. Nobody wanted Nash to win indeed.

[Guest Paul Kersey]

A defense-

 

The Fingerpoke of Doom or Nash beating Goldberg did not kill WCW. I think there's pretty decent places those could have gone.

 

Just taken on their own, they're questionable; but a focused version of Goldberg vs a reuinted NWO could have worked(in the dimension where WCW thought ahead). it's the path Goldberg himself stays on for a month or two, going through Hall, Bigelow, and Nash on ppvs. It needed to go to him V Hogan 2, which he would have needed to win. Flair was a fine busywork feud for Hogan (and maybe could have done some angle with david after) If the strap had to come off Hogan when it did, the Goldberg could just have had to chase heel champion and company president Flair to win it (then do a Hogan remath later, with or without NWo support.)

 

WCW died starting at Uncensored with the nonsense match and title switch, and through the summer as nothing made sense and no one had the same role for more than a week or two. There's bad decisions before that, but that's the point where things get unfixable.