WCW ongoing thread

[El-P]

Miracles have happened before, I think we agreed on several things about ECW, and I would guess I share some of the same opinions about SMW too (Tracy Smothers, DWB, New Jack promo ability etc...). But you and I having strictly oppositve views on things isn't exatcly new indeed.

 

One thing I didn't expect, the Nasty Boys work actually better as a babyface act. They still mostly suck, but they are better at getting their ass kicked and bump around, as ugly as it is, than they are are trying to get heat with those long, horrible, boring control segments that would put even Rick Rude to sleep. Not that I've seen anything actually *good* from them since the great brawl with Cac & Sullivan, but their matches since the turn are not as bad as they have been before. Still, the Nasties stock overall has dropped quite a bit with their comeback in 1993. And it's not like I had a very high opinion of their work before.

 

On the other end, since mid 94, Johnny B. Badd has become a mid-card fixture for good little matches if put together with a solid worker. Mero has come a long way since his debut. In the latter part of 1993 he already showed some solid improvements, and now he's clearly a pretty good worker with a more serious edge to his character.

[Matt D]

Miracles have happened before, I think we agreed on several things about ECW, and I would guess I share some of the same opinions about SMW too (Tracy Smothers, DWB, New Jack promo ability etc...). But you and I having strictly oppositve views on things isn't exatcly new indeed.

 

One thing I didn't expect, the Nasty Boys work actually better as a babyface act. They still mostly suck, but they are better at getting their ass kicked and bump around, as ugly as it is, than they are are trying to get heat with those long, horrible, boring control segments that would put even Rick Rude to sleep. Not that I've seen anything actually *good* from them since the great brawl with Cac & Sullivan, but their matches since the turn are not as bad as they have been before. Still, the Nasties stock overall has dropped quite a bit with their comeback in 1993. And it's not like I had a very high opinion of their work before.

 

On the other end, since mid 94, Johnny B. Badd has become a mid-card fixture for good little matches if put together with a solid worker. Mero has come a long way since his debut. In the latter part of 1993 he already showed some solid improvements, and now he's clearly a pretty good worker with a more serious edge to his character.

Nasty Boys had some really quite good matches vs Money Inc in late 92 in WWF after they turned face. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a good match vs the Headshrinkers too.

[El-P]

I can believe that, at least the good match with the Shrinkers. Money Inc. I haven't seen in ages.

 

Cool little stuff on WCW TV :

 

Ricky Steamboat working against Jean Paul Levesque on Saturday Night. This reminds me why I really enjoyed HHH as long as he was a mid-card snob, as Levesque obviously had potential already. He actually really destroys Steamboat's shoulder here. I wonder if they would have had a program after Ricky would have dropped back the title to Austin.

 

The debut of Alex Wright, before the haircut and the techno music I love so much. And man did he look like a shitload of potential too, as he was only 18 or so. I never realized he was in WCW so early. First match with Brady Boone, in full Tiger Mask mode, and it really was a proto-cruiserweight match. Pretty neat.

 

Man, was Kimberly Page smoking. Yeah, just wanna mention it.

 

Cactus Jack cutting an intense, great promo in which he mentionned his infamous word ushered in German in a Munich hospital. As good as his ECW stuff from the same timeframe, really. WCW was so blind, losing such a great talent.

 

And a not so cool stuff : Brian Pillman must have been depressed. He's just not used at all. His match with Austin was just a backdrop for an angle with Steamboat, and he's never mentionned again. Poor guy. No wonder he finally snapped, after years and years of working his ass off, getting over both as a face and a heel, surviving the ridiculous Lightheavyweight division, surviving the most ill-fated and rushed babyface turn of the last 3 years (since the Luger turn in 1991 I would say). Nope, not getting anything back.

[El-P]

What ? the Bruise Borthers ? Again ? How many times did these guy show up in WCW working squashes match and leaving after a few weeks ?

 

Barry Darsow as a heckler fan is really, really annoying. I guess that was the point. Too bad he couldn't d the Repo Man, thar was his best gimmick.

[El-P]

I expected WCW TV to become bad once Hogan got on board, but I didn't expect it to sink so low so quick. I know Flair was the head booker at this point, was he responsible for the Dave Sullivan shit or was that Jimmy Hart putting his two cents to Hogan blowing goo all over the booking ? It's unbearable.

 

Also, never realized how much Hunter Hearst Helmsley was a total copycat from Jean Paul Lesveque blue blodd gimmick. Everything was there, everything. Another case of hurting the myth of Vince knowing how to create great characters. It was a complete gimmick rip-off.

[blueminister]

Well I don't think anyone ever accused Blueblood Hunter of being a great character. (I'm a fan of the gimmick myself in an "unrealized potential" way.)

[El-P]

Blueblood Hunter is actually my favourite part of his career. He was a pretty good hard worker who didn't oversold his own ability, he was in a right spot on a card (mid-card, upper midcard), a spot he should (and would) never have left if not for politics anyway.

[El-P]

Halloween Havoc 1994 is really the first "Hogan era WCW" PPV, with title matches involving Honky Tonk Man and Jim Duggan, Falir "retiring" and a whole post-main event basically time-warping into WWF circa 1990.

The Dave Sullivan gimmick, complete with godawful "I wanna be a Hulkamaniac" theme song is actually pretty unintentionnaly funny, as the message it sends it basically that you really have to be a complete retard to be a Hulkamaniac. I guess no one got the irony, especially not the real retard Hogan look-alike in the crowd.

Also, I think this is the first occurence of a clear showcase of complete disdain between Tony Schiavone and Bobby Heenan.

[Jingus]

Ah, Christmas break from school finally lets me peruse the semi-recent archives of stuff I missed here:

 

Watching the end of the cage match from Uncensored 98 and man was that a awful finish. Disciple enters the cage and then Sting comes from the rafters to save Savage. Then Savage turns on Sting and piledrives him. Savage spits on Hogan and leaves while Hogan and Disciple just stand around like fools. What a shitty was to end a ppv. Wouldn't Savage have won since he left the cage first? And did WCW ever acknowledge Disciple was the Booty Man/Zodiac/Butcher/Beefcake?

Hilarious tidbit: do you remember The Complete Idiot's Guide to Pro Wrestling, by Lou Albano and Bert Sugar? (For the uninitiated, this was a series of books which was a poor ripoff of the far superior _________ for Dummies franchise. Iidiot's was basically the Gamepro to Dummies's Electronic Gaming Monthly.) At the back of this notorious book, they wrote a list of the ten greatest matches ever. Guess which match made the list! Yes, seriously.

 

I was a big backer of Varsity Club 2.0 much to the annoyance of my friends. I'm guessing their feud with the Harris brothers doesn't hold up.

No sir, it does not. If they ever had a good night, I didn't see it. If you ever wanna watch the worst fucking match ever, track down the Varsities versus Chono and Super J from some Thunder in early 2000.

 

I lost my shit for the Varsity Club comeback. Best thing was Kevin Sullivan no selling Asya and knocking the piss out of her.

And he booked that, too. What is Sullivan's problem with women in wrestling? I've heard him bragging about knocking the shit out of women in the ring, praising other segments where men knock the shit out of women, etcetera. Comes off like a real misogynist, even by rasslin standards.

 

 

And for the record, Jimmy Golden didn't do much for me either. I didn't hate him, but found him pretty bland as a worker.

[Victator]

Props to him for that segment at least. The bodybuilder woman beating up wrestlers and never getting touched was getting old at that point.

 

Asya was especially grating, since she was only four feet tall and her offense looked like shit.

 

Also El-P needs to lay off using "retard" in that context. It is a hateful slur on the level of "fag" and "nigger".

[El-P]

"A guy knocking the piss out of a woman was fucking great. Props to him for that one." (because she was a bodybuilder that does not count as woman abuse I guess ?)

"You should refrain from using the word retard in that context, it's a hateful slur"

 

That made my day. I wonder what if Sulli had been knocking the piss out of a retarded (in gimmick) woman. Hateful ? Not hateful ?

 

But hey, since I'm a nice guy and don't want to offense anyone, I won't use the word "retard" about Dave Sullivan anymore nor the Hulkamaniacs anymore. Let's be PC. I will keep on using "this angle was retarded" though.

 

(As far as Golden goes, this is exactly my feelings too : just bland as hell, nothing too bad nor too good about him)

[Victator]

(because she was a bodybuilder that does not count as woman abuse I guess ?)

She is a pro wrestler and had spent the last six months fighting men. So no it doesn't count. Like seriously, how can you be that obtuse. My guess is you are deflecting attention from something in your personal life.

 

That made my day. I wonder what if Sulli had been knocking the piss out of a retarded (in gimmick) woman. Hateful ? Not hateful ?

You can't possibly be this fucking stupid.

 

 

Edit: Though really I wonder how indignant you would be, if someone asked you not to use the word "nigger" and "faggot"?

[El-P]

(because she was a bodybuilder that does not count as woman abuse I guess ?)

She is a pro wrestler and had spent the last six month fighting men. So no it doesn't count.

A man hiting a woman is projecting woman abuse, no matter what the circumstances. And it's not like WCW was a mutant freak show like ECW was, it was a mainstream program with kids watching. That's hateful. I don't remember if Sullivan was a heel (probably) or not, but it doesn't change the fact you thought it was pretty great to see a guy knocking the piss (your words) out of a woman. And at the same time, you're complaining because of a use of a word that you say is a "hateful slur" in that context (a post about a pro-wrestling character that is basically "slow", on a pro-wrestling board) as bad as "fag" or "nigger". I personnaly find it both ridiculous and hypocritical. So yeah, I'll stop using said word refering to Dave Sullivan's gimmick because I do not want to offense anyone (in case it would). That being said, I still can have a fat laugh out of the whole thing, thank you.

[El-P]

Edit: Though really I wonder how indignant you would be, if someone asked you not to use the word "nigger" and "faggot"?

I don't ever use the words "nigger" and "faggot".

[El-P]

Sorry to ask, but what does that :

 

My guess is you are deflecting attention from something in your personal life.

even means ??

[Victator]

A man hiting a woman is projecting woman abuse, no matter what the circumstances.

Save it for the bodies in the basement. They'll forgive you someday. If they are a regular on a wrestling show, they are fair game. Anybody watching the TV knows she was regularly fighting men. In fact she was a participant in that six man tag.

 

 

 

And at the same time, you're complaining because of a use of a word that you say is a "hateful slur" in that context (a post about a pro-wrestling character that is basically "slow", on a pro-wrestling board)

You were using the term as a pejorative. If I were referring to Adrian Adonis as a "faggot", it would not be okay, even if he were portraying a homosexual. Because "faggot" is a gay slur.

[Victator]

Sorry to ask, but what does that :

 

My guess is you are deflecting attention from something in your personal life.

even means ??

 

Best case scenario = You beat your girlfriend.

 

Worst case scenario= French Ted Bundy.

 

I don't ever use the words "nigger" and "faggot".

Why is that? Because they are hateful slurs.

[El-P]

Your double standarts are admirable. Your attempt at humour, not so much.

Plus I don't know why you are still bitching about at this point since I already mentionned *twice* I wouldn't use the incriminated word anymore in that context so that I would not offend anyone.

So basically you are kinda trolling me at this point.

 

(as far as my girlfriend goes, I only beat her when the dumb bitch asks for it. Take that with or without a grain of salt, whichever suits you the best, really.)

[Victator]

Its not a double standard. It would be a double standard if I used "cunt" and "bitch" regularly, which I do not.

[El-P]

Just a word :

 

And at the same time, you're complaining because of a use of a word that you say is a "hateful slur" in that context (a post about a pro-wrestling character that is basically "slow", on a pro-wrestling board)

You were using the term as a pejorative. If I were referring to Adrian Adonis as a "faggot", it would not be okay, even if he were portraying a homosexual. Because "faggot" is a gay slur.

 

Adrian Adonis' gimmick was a homophobic gimmick which purpose was to get homophobic heat from the babyface (although homophobic) crowd. By calling him a "faggot", you are into the whole dynamic of the gimmick which is to call him a "fucking faggot", which is hateful.

 

Dave Sullivan's gimmick (like most mentally disabled gimmick in wrestling) is a babyface gimmick which is supposed to get sympathy from the babyface crowd because of his mental disability. It's not supposed to draw "retard" chants from the audience, as they are supposed to either feel for him or even identify with him as having the same icon and role model in Hulk Hogan. It's a childlike figure, or the image of what the bookers think a childlike figure should project from a mentally disabled grown up, and in that matter it is actually already pretty offensive toward the mentally disabled people. Me calling him a "retard" is pointing both the whole hypocrisy and unassumed irony of the whole thing, as if you are honest Dave's gimmick was one of a "retard" in that the definition of the character is precisely the idea that the people creating it have of mentally disabled people, the same way they picture gay characters in the most cliché manner imaginable. The difference being in their mind that gay = evil (because they are GAYS) while retards = good (because they are FUNNY), but this is basically the exact same sort of thinking and looking down at people in both cases. Thus the whole empathy/identification stuff being quite funny in that they are actually identifying Hulkamaniacs to their own idea of what a "retard" is.

 

If you can't grasp the difference between the two, well, too bad.

[Victator]

You were the one using the term "retard", which is considered a slur aimed at the mentally disabled.

[El-P]

Try to understand what I wrote above.

And stop crying, please. It is getting suspect.

[Victator]

Actually my cousin was born severely retarded and that is why it bothers me.

[Jingus]

Best case scenario = You beat your girlfriend.

 

Worst case scenario= French Ted Bundy.

Uh, Vic, that's not very nice.

 

(as far as my girlfriend goes, I only beat her when the dumb bitch asks for it. Take that with or without a grain of salt, whichever suits you the best, really.)

Uh, El-P, that's not helping things.

 

Remember that ELP didn't grow up speaking English, so it's not surprising that he'd occasionally miss a few nuances regarding the implications of certain vocabulary. We still don't really have any firm cultural consensus on whether "retarded" is a slur or not, and it's really only in the past decade that "retard" has become taboo. Words go in and out of style, and change meanings; "fag" and "faggot" have had at least half a dozen completely different definitions, and "nigger" is basically just a mumbled corruption of the Latin word which literally means "black man". Standards change, and don't be too hard on Frenchy if he wasn't aware of it.

 

Actually my cousin was born severely retarded and that is why it bothers me.

Yeah, the instant this argument started I could tell that you had some relative, friend, or loved one who was (...shit, what's even the right word now? "Retarded" is too close to the slur, "handicapped" and "disabled" and "impaired" are also seen by many people as being politically incorrect, and "handi-capable" is a goddamn condescending backhanded insult used by pandering pussies to try to make themselves look sensitive. Any others come to mind?) ...who was born with cerebral issues which most of us never have to face. I've seen you get grumpy plenty of times, Vic, but never this fast nor this intense. We all have our personal hot-buttons, and I'm sorry El-P inadvertently poked yours.

 

 

Back on track: yes, Asya was a horrible goddamn wrestler, and yes it seemed like she rarely ever took a bump despite being a heel for most of her tenure. That was Vic's point, that it was nice to finally see anyone hit her. Kinda like X-Pac in 2000 where you were just dying to see someone, didn't matter who, slap the shit out of him. (Although an incompetent half-trained greenhorn like Asya basically drew heat just cuz she was a big heel broad, and not because she was some kind of ring general who could skillfully manipulate the audience's emotions.) My point is that Sullivan takes FAR too much pleasure in happily reminiscing about various times that women were stiffed, humiliated, and generally mistreated by men in the ring.

[El-P]

Actually my cousin was born severely retarded and that is why it bothers me.

Why didn't you said it the very first time in a polite way instead of talking to me like I was some offensive asshole to begin with ? Jeeez. I would have apologized for the offense and would have gently moved on. It would have saved us (and the infortunates who had to read this) a lot of bullshit from both parts.