2011 Observer Hall of Fame thread

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think you can really say, "well Angle got in, why not KENTA" with a straight face. Angle was a featured star during the tail end of the late '90s/early '00s boom, was a three-time Most Outstanding in WON and one-time Best Technical, headlined several major WWE PPVs as a legit headliner rather than a "we don't have anyone so plug him in with Cena" type guy we get today... I mean clearly he got in way too quickly but it's night-and-day different from the "well he sure is a good worker" and nothing else case for KENTA. That would only hold water if Alan4L was the typical WON voter, and he's not. And even among the younger-puro-fan group Taue is respected and I'd expect would get more Hall of Fame support.

The point is not that Angle is directly comparable to KENTA in terms of strength as candidates. The point is that the trend is for the scale to slide down in terms of who is and isn't a Hall of Famer. Angle and Ultimo are the worst picks, but there are other guys who are in who have candidacies that are marginal compared to the original class. If you look at WHEN people got in even some "obvious" picks don't seem so obvious.

 

My point is not "I fear KENTA will get in because Angle got in." My point is "I fear KENTA will get in because of standards trending down over the years and wonder where those standards will be by the time he gets on the ballot."

[Ditch]

Even for as much as Angle, Ultimo and Hase were weak, there was at least a case for them outside workrate. There isn't for KENTA, and I really do think it would be a significant jump to get there.

[Dylan Waco]

There's no case for Danielson other than work. I tend to agree with John that Danielson is a lock.

[Loss]

Maybe at one time, but there has been a change in Dave the past few years, to a point where I would call him an extremist on only caring about what is good for business. I think there was a time that if his fandom and his instincts for what would work were in conflict, his fandom would win out. I don't believe that to be the case anymore. 2011 Dave would not have supported Benoit going in the HOF (even if the murder/suicide never happened).

[kjh]

I could see KENTA being pushed in as the best junior heavyweight of the 2000s.

[kjh]

Maybe at one time, but there has been a change in Dave the past few years, to a point where I would call him an extremist on only caring about what is good for business. I think there was a time that if his fandom and his instincts for what would work were in conflict, his fandom would win out. I don't believe that to be the case anymore. 2011 Dave would not have supported Benoit going in the HOF (even if the murder/suicide never happened).

I think that perception is misleading because 2011 Dave writes so little about the major matches in the indys, Japan and Mexico.

[Loss]

Look at how he has covered CM Punk -- liking it on a certain level and trying to talk himself out of liking it on another. Once upon a time, he might have mentioned in passing that it wasn't moving the needle, but he wouldn't be so obsessively focused on it. Also, I suspect the reason he doesn't write about that stuff as much as he once did is because business is down, not because he doesn't enjoy it as much.

[Ditch]

There's no case for Danielson other than work. I tend to agree with John that Danielson is a lock.

Danielson is on his way to making an impression in WWE. And Danielson has at least been winning best technician and most outstanding; that's a clear accomplishment relative to the WON HoF.

[kjh]

I think it's more that MMA commitments has eaten up a lot of the time he would used to spend watching wrestling tapes.

[KrisZ]

Over the next year and from now on I'm planning on picking some cases to get on the ballot.

[jdw]

Sasaki's already picking up steam as a candidate getting very close in 2009 and only slipping last year due to Doc being added to the ballot.

This is true. Doc being on the ballot at least another year will probably help keep him away. Though one does wonder if Doc shot his wad last year and slips into a Dick Murdoch type of roll.

 

 

Listening to Todd Martin and Alan4L talk about Sasaki as a candidate a lot of that context has already been lost at least with those two voters. I don't think Alan4L fully understood Matt's analysis (73 points doesn't equal 73 shows over 10,000 fans as a sold out Tokyo Dome show would get 5 points). No discussion of how with the Dome shows in the '90s he'd be usually way down the list of guys responsible for drawing the crowds or how the big drawing Kawada matches was merely the luck of being the champion when the All Japan/NOAH split happened. His success as a freelancer was put over, even though results have been mixed (return to New Japan in 2004 and first couple of NOAH shows in 2005 were big successes, while World Japan was a disaster, there were diminishing returns with his other runs and Kensuke Office hasn't taken off past small show level). The only negative that was brought up was the Hiromitsu Gompei scandal. Todd still thinks he's one of the stronger candidates on the ballot despite knowing the limitations.

I'm not even sure his turns in NJPW in 2004 and NOAH in 2005 were all that big of successes relative to what the promotions were doing and could do. Luck of the draw going against Kobashi, while also have Misawa-Kawada redux "above" it on the card.

 

Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if he goes in eventually.

 

John

[jdw]

Maybe at one time, but there has been a change in Dave the past few years, to a point where I would call him an extremist on only caring about what is good for business. I think there was a time that if his fandom and his instincts for what would work were in conflict, his fandom would win out. I don't believe that to be the case anymore. 2011 Dave would not have supported Benoit going in the HOF (even if the murder/suicide never happened).

Taking this in terms of no murder/suicide happening...

 

Totally disagree with this.

 

Benoit got in the HOF in 2003 after being in Dave's eye a great worker non-stop (sans a few injuries) from 1990-2003. Dave thought he was a much better version of Dynamite Kid, who to this day Dave would wax on about (think about his Tiger arguments).

 

14+ years as someone that Dave thought was pretty constantly a Top 10 worker?

 

Total and complete lock that Dave would strongly advocate for someone like that got on the ballot this year. Complete slam dunk.

 

I think the reason we might not get that in Dave's writting right now is that there *isn't* anyone who in Dave's mind has been one of the 10 best in the world for the past 14+ straight years. Perhaps Rey is close, but I tend to think there were stretches where Rey was gone for a long stretch or not looking especially strong to Dave where he would have dropped out (and also when the competition for the top 10 in his mind was a little tougher).

 

If KENTA is a Top 10 worker for Dave for 14+ straight years, then sure... I could see him moving up to th lock category for Dave. But does anyone get the vibe from Dave has written that he thinks that?

 

Though maybe he started thinking Kenta was Top 10 in 2003, he's always been up there since and is closing in on a decade next year. Anyone get that sense?

 

Granted, I don't think you need to hit a decade for Dave to push you hard for your work. See Hase. That really wasn't that long ago: 2006.

 

John

[Loss]

My point is that I don't think Dave cares very much about work anymore, and hasn't since UFC got big. He rarely talks about it. He talks about television ratings and PPV buys and house show attendance far more than match quality. That wasn't always the case. The modern Dave would make the case that Benoit, while a great worker, was never a draw and shouldn't be in.

 

To paraphrase him recently on the F4W board, he said he hasn't been a wrestling purist since 1989. He's a business purist.

[Ditch]

And if it's going to be work, it's gotta be in WWE. Being a top worker in the decaying husk of Japan is not something Dave will put an iota of effort into hyping. Danielson, if he becomes a mediocre-drawing WWE main eventer but is still winning those WON year-end awards, can have his work push him over the top. Big, big difference between him and KENTA... and both are still a few years out from even qualifying.

[kjh]

Luck of the draw going against Kobashi, while also have Misawa-Kawada redux "above" it on the card.

Yeah, I'd agree that Misawa-Kawada was great support, but Kobashi-Sasaki was clearly the bigger match on the day.

[jdw]

My point is that I don't think Dave cares very much about work anymore, and hasn't since UFC got big. He rarely talks about it. He talks about television ratings and PPV buys and house show attendance far more than match quality. That wasn't always the case. The modern Dave would make the case that Benoit, while a great worker, was never a draw and shouldn't be in.

 

To paraphrase him recently on the F4W board, he said he hasn't been a wrestling purist since 1989. He's a business purist.

And he's working people if he's claiming that was 1989. I don't recall him advocating Hogan for Wrestling of the Year in 1996 and 1997.

 

I also suspect that we can find examples of Dave talking about work, and advocating workers going in the HOF, since TUF Season 1 when UFC "got big".

 

Dave still advocates work. He overplayed Hase's back office impact to give himself cover for advocating him for the HOF, but that was a pure work vote.

 

You'll see work being meaningless to Dave in HOF voting when he changes the intro to the ballot and removes all references to working and performing from it.

 

John

[jdw]

Luck of the draw going against Kobashi, while also have Misawa-Kawada redux "above" it on the card.

Yeah, I'd agree that Misawa-Kawada was great support, but Kobashi-Sasaki was clearly the bigger match on the day.

 

Sure it was. But take a few minutes to think about this:

 

Would Kobashi vs Mutoh have sold more tickets to that show than Kobashi vs Sasaki?

 

Luck of the draw that Sasaki was in that match.

 

It really is no different from giving Sasaki and Kawada credit for their sellout. Mutoh vs Misawa would have packed it just as much, and been a match people actually wanted to see more. Sasaki happened to be the IWGP Champ, and Kawada was the last man standing in All Japan at the time. I do give AJPW vs NJPW credit for drawing more than the allegedly great drawing power of Ogawa against Hash. But Sasaki got lucky, and Kawada was just the AJPW guy in the right spot. Misawa and Kobashi would have sold the place out as well.

 

But when people look at Matt's list and really don't have a good understanding of what was what at the time, it's just a number on a list that makes Sasaki look good.

 

REO Speedwagon had the biggest selling album in the country one year in the early 80s.

 

Born In The USA was either the #2 (behind Purple Rain) or #3 (behind Purple Rain and the still selling Thiller) album of 1984.

 

REO's shitty album > seller than Born In The USA?

 

Not at all. Would have gotten it's ass handed to it. Just came along in a year where there wasn't another monster seller.

 

But someone who doesn't have a good idea of music or sales in the first half of the 80s would come along and think:

 

"Holy shit... REO was huge! Even BitUSA wasn't #1 in the year it came out. Wow!"

 

No.

 

But it is why I think we both agree that Sasaki will go in: he's got shit that looks good on a list: 10K "main events", titles and tournies. It will get him in eventually.

 

John

[Childs]

But it is why I think we both agree that Sasaki will go in: he's got shit that looks good on a list: 10K "main events", titles and tournies. It will get him in eventually.

 

John

Sasaki is Chuck Klein!

 

Am I the only one who finds this whole question of "Who was the biggest draw?" really tedious? I'm not saying that discussion of the business side has no place or can't be interesting. But I'm not fundamentally interested in a HOF that's based on that as a central question.

[soup23]

I think the question of who was the biggest draw comes up so much because it is a definitive way to validate a candidate and vice versa. While it is not the most interesting conversation, and I certainly think of you Childs as someone with good taste in wrestling, I find this method better than using more objective opponents like Edge's acting or his variety of classic matches.

[Ditch]

Sasaki is a really tough call in some ways, but I think he clearly had some good draws to his name.

 

-The '97-'98 run is REALLY hard to quantify since you had the Choshu and Inoki retirement shows as two of the four defenses. Doesn't seem to have been a negative though.

 

-New Japan did fine with him on top in 2000 despite not having a lot of their big '90s names (Hashimoto after April, Choshu, Hase, Yamazaki, Mutoh was in-and-out for WCW). vs Kawada, you could have plugged in Hashimoto or Mutoh or Chono and drawn the big gate, which doesn't say anything against Sasaki because those three are in the Hall. And the undercard was kinda bad. Can't credit Sasaki with the follow-up draw in January since that was a tournament.

 

-World Japan... lordy, that was hopeless and stupid from the start. It was SWS for a new decade. And does anyone hold SWS against Tenryu?

 

-Sasaki vs Kobashi was the big draw for the '05 dome show. It wasn't an "anyone vs Kobashi would draw" situation; Mutoh was mentioned, and again, he's an uncontested Hall member so how does that reflect badly on Kenskay? Plus, Sasaki moving from NJ to NOAH was a significant factor in NJ having its #1 status contested for the only time since the '84 crisis.

 

-Sasaki as a worker... is his body of work really much weaker than other NJ guys in the Hall like Mutoh, Chono and Hase? None of them were MOTYC factories like their All Japan counterparts. Sasaki was prone to the occasional braindead match, but then so was Mutoh.

 

Sasaki is a marginal choice at best for the Hall of Fame. A lot of points above are "me too" or "well he's not BAD..." rather than "he was obviously a megastar/superworker and should go in". The comparison for Sasaki isn't to the cream-of-the-crop Hall of Famers, but to guys who have gotten in over the last decade or are under serious consideration. Compared to Hase, Edge and Angle, Sasaki looks darn good. And I think Sasaki stacks up really well compared to Williams, who was a better worker but not much else.

[Dylan Waco]

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...2658&cmd=tc

 

This is a link to a new podcast Dave Musgrave and I are doing called Wrestling Culture. We cover the HoF this time so I thought it was relevant for this thread. May start a thread for all the shows once we have a few in the bag if it is okay with Loss and Will.

[Loss]

Sure, feel free to start a thread.

[Dylan Waco]

Expanding on my Blackwell research by looking at his St. Louis run. We don't have attendance figures for all but a couple shows, but I still think it adds to the total picture.

 

http://www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index...mp;page=2#pager

 

 

11/20/81 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat David Von Erich

Dusty Rhodes beat Sgt Slaughter

Missouri State champion Ken Patera beat Bulldog Bob Brown

Pat O'Connor and Rufus R Jones (sub Rocky Johnson) beat Crusher Blackwell and Bob Sweetan

Dewey Robertson beat Ron McFarlane

Billy Robinson drew Gene Lewis

Chan Chung and Jerry Brown beat Tommy Martin and Buzz Tyler

 

12/4/81 St Louis

 

Ric Flair won a 14 man battle royal

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Jack Brisco

Missouri State champion Ken Patera beat Jack Brisco (sub Kerry Von Erich)

David Von Erich beat Sgt Slaughter dq

Crusher Blackwell & Gene Lewis & Bob Sweetan beat Pat O'Connor & Tommy Martin & Bulldog Bob Brown

Dewey Robertson beat Chan Chung

Rufus R Jones beat Ron McFarlane

Bruce Reed drew Jerry Brown

 

1/1/82 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dusty Rhodes

Dick the Bruiser beat Ken Patera to win the Missouri State title

David Von Erich and Rufus R Jones no contest Harley Race and Greg Valentine

Dewey Robertson beat Baron Von Raschke

Crusher Blackwell beat Ox Baker and Bruce Reed

Pat O'Connor beat Bob Sweetan (Pat's St Louis retirement match)

Wendi Richter and Joyce Grable beat Sandy Partlow and Early Dawn

Bulldog Bob Brown no contest Jerry Brown

 

All of the above shows were booked by Mushnick. O'Conner takes over either on the Jan. 1st show or after. Blackwell is being built but not used high up the cards.

 

 

2/19/82 St Louis

 

Dick the Bruiser won an 18 man battle royal

Crusher Blackwell and Harley Race no contest Andre the Giant and Dusty Rhodes

Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Greg Valentine

Ken Patera beat Crusher Blackwell

Gene Kiniski beat Baron Von Raschke

Dewey Robertson beat Dick Murdoch dq

Kerry Von Erich beat Gene Lewis

Roger Kirby drew Spike Huber

Jerry Brown and Jerry Valiant beat Ricky Romero and Bulldog Bob Brown

 

Blackwell no showed the previous card where he was scheduled in the semi-main v. Dewey Robertson. But here he is again in a big semi-main and doing double duty against his future opponent.

 

3/26/82 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dick the Bruiser

Gene Kiniski and Dewey Robertson beat Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera dq

Terry Funk beat Mark Romero (sub Jack Brisco)

Rufus R Jones beat Jerry Brown

Roger Kirby beat Kerry Von Erich COR

Superfly beat Ricky Romero

Bulldog Bob Brown and Steve Regal beat Jerry Valiant and Gene Lewis

 

4/16/82 St Louis

 

Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Crusher Blackwell

Ken Patera beat Dewey Robertson

Gene Kiniski and Rufus R Jones beat Superfly and Sgt Slaughter

Kerry Von Erich beat Jerry Brown

Steve Regal drew Roger Kirby

Mark Romero beat Ray Hernandez

Art Crews and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Gene Lewis and Ron McFarlane

 

4/30/82 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Gene Kiniski

Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Harley Race COR

Ken Patera and Crusher Blackwell beat Dusty Rhodes and Rufus R Jones

Kelly Kiniski beat Jerry Brown

Sabrina and Princess Victoria beat Wendi Richter and Joyce Grable

Michael Hayes beat Ron McFarlane

Roger Kirby drew Steve Regal (sub Bulldog Bob Brown)

 

Interesting stuff here as Blackwell works underneath in a huge tag that was beneath only the World Title match, then gets a big main event and then gets a match that is third from the top under two title matches. Pretty clear he's being presented as a big part of the show at this point.

 

5/14/82 St Louis

 

Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser beat Dick Murdoch and Crusher Blackwell

Dewey Robertson beat Jack Brisco

David and Kerry Von Erich beat Ken Patera and Roger Kirby

Bulldog Bob Brown beat Superfly dq

Ray Hernandez beat Art Crews (sub Steve Regal)

Rufus R Jones beat Ron McFarlane

Mark Romero beat Jerry Brown

 

6/12/82 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Dick the Bruiser

Harley Race and Dick Murdoch no contest Dusty Rhodes and Ted DiBiase

Dory Funk Jr beat Dewey Robertson

King Kong Brody beat Bob Sweetan

David and Kerry Von Erich beat Ken Patera and Crusher Blackwell

Rufus R Jones beat Superfly

Mark Romero (sub Ted Oates) beat Kabuki dq

Roger Kirby drew Mike George

 

7/16/82 St Louis

 

Dory Funk Jr beat Gene Kiniski

Crusher Blackwell beat Ken Patera

Missouri State champion Dick the Bruiser beat Sgt Slaughter

Dewey Robertson & Rufus R Jones & Spike Huber (sub Kerry Von Erich) beat Baron Von Raschke & Roger Kirby and Ray Hernandez

Mike George drew Manny Fernandez (sub Bob Russell)

Mark Romero and Art Crews beat Buzz Tyler and Abdullah the Great

 

Would kill to see that Von Erichs v. future Sheiks tag and it is an interesting use of Blackwell who is still essentially a main eventer in St. Louis. Interesting that Blackwell teamed with Patera and worked against him in the semi-main on the next show. I wonder what the angle was.

 

Next three shows Blackwell semi-mains in a tag, misses the second August show and then semi-main events against Dewey again.

 

 

10/8/82 St Louis

 

Harley Race beat NWA champion Ric Flair (one fall only, no title change)

Crusher Blackwell no contest Andre the Giant

Kim Duk & Ken Patera & Ray Hernandez beat Dusty Rhodes & Bruce Reed & Dewey Robertson dq

Hulk Hogan beat Greg Valentine and Tio in a handicap match

Mark Romero beat Roger Kirby

Manny Fernandez beat Baron Von Raschke

Bulldog Bob Brown and Buzz Tyler drew Rufus R Jones and Mike George

 

10/22/82 St Louis

 

Ken Patera beat Crusher Blackwell

Hulk Hogan and Dick the Bruiser beat Greg Valentine and Dewey Robertson

Bruce Reed beat Kim Duk

Buzz Tyler no contest Ray Hernandez

Ivan Koloff beat Mike George

Manny Fernandez beat Terry Gordy

Mark Romero and Terry Orndorff beat Crusher Ayala and Roger Kirby

 

God damn that first show is stacked. I wonder what the figure was for that? The second show is really weak though Blackwell v. Patera is the headliner so that feud was still doing something in the eyes of the office.

 

Jerry works third from the top in a kind of nothing match next and then is gone for the next show. He comes back for:

 

12/3/82 St Louis

 

Dick the Bruiser and Bruce Reed beat Ric Flair and Crusher Blackwell

Kerry Von Erich beat Ray Fernandez

Ken Patera drew Ivan Koloff

Bulldog Bob Brown beat Dewey Robertson

Bob Orton Jr beat Art Crews

Roger Kirby and Crusher Ayala beat Mike George and Manny Fernandez

Buzz Tyler beat Jerry Brown dq

 

Main event. Show looks weak aside from that match. Was this at the height of the post-Sam St. Louis war? Show does 5,200 which for that card seems decent.

 

1/21/83 St Louis

 

King Kong Brody beat Bobby Duncum

Kerry Von Erich beat Missouri State champion Harley Race dq

Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Crusher Blackwell and Crusher Ayala

Greg Valentine beat Bobo Brazil

Rick Martel beat Ox Baker dq

Bob Orton Jr beat Brad Armstrong (sub Tommy Rich)

Spike Huber and Brad Armstrong beat Kim Duk and the Beast

 

Gone for a bit and comes back with this. Then he misses a couple of shows and...

 

3/11/83 St Louis

 

King Kong Brody no contest Crusher Blackwell

Harley Race beat Rick Martel

Missouri State champion Kerry Von Erich beat Super Destroyer

Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Dewey Robertson and Greg Valentine

Ray Hernandez beat Spike Huber

Kim Duk and Yasu Fuji beat Mark Romero and Manny Fernandez

Roger Kirby beat Buzz Tyler

 

 

4/15/83 St Louis

 

Crusher Blackwell beat Kerry Von Erich to win the Missouri State title

Greg Valentine beat Dick the Bruiser

Rick Martel beat Bob Orton Jr

George Wells beat Bobby Duncum

Yasu Fuji and Kim Duk beat Spike Huber and Bulldog Bob Brown

Roddy Piper beat Omar Atlas

Dewey Robertson and Eddie Mansfield drew Manny Fernandez and Buzz Tyler

 

No clue what these are drawing but at this point it's clear Blackwell is seen as a main guy. They didn't give the Missouri Title to just anyone. Interesting that the Brody match happened here before it happened in the AWA.

 

 

4/29/83 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Crusher Blackwell COR

Harley Race beat David Von Erich

Rick Martel and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Kim Duk and Grizzly Adams (sub Yasu Fuji)

Greg Valentine beat Buzz Tyler

George Wells drew Roddy Piper

Bob Orton Jr beat Dewey Robertson

Manny Fernandez & Mark Romero & Liz Chase beat Ray Hernandez & Bill Cody (sub Eddie Mansfield) & Leilani Kai

 

5/13/83 St Louis

 

Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell to win the Missouri State title

Kerry Von Erich and George Wells beat Kim Duk and Roger Kirby (sub Yasu Fuji)

Greg Valentine no contest Bruce Reed

Bobby Duncum beat Bulldog Bob Brown

Bob Orton Jr beat Manny Fernandez

Dewey Robertson drew Rick Martel

Mark Romero and Jerry Ho beat Ray Hernandez and Jerry Brown

 

6/10/83 St Louis

 

Harley Race beat Ric Flair to win the NWA World heavyweight title

Crusher Blackwell won an 18 man battle royal

Andre the Giant & Bruce Reed & Dick the Bruiser beat Crusher Blackwell & John Studd & Bobby Duncum

Bob Orton Jr drew David Von Erich

Gene Kiniski no contest Dick Murdoch

Rick Martel beat Greg Valentine

Roddy Piper drew Bulldog Bob Brown

George Wells and Mark Romero beat Dewey Robertson and Ray Hernandez

 

Jerry gets a Flair main even in St. Louis as the Missouri champ which would seem to be a pretty big deal. Dropping the title to Harley after a month isn't surprising. Probably was the plan all along as Harley owned a piece of Central States which was wedded to St. Louis in a lot of ways by this point. Race v. Flair was probably what they were building to though I find it notable that Blackwell was STILL put over huge working in the big six-man and winning the Battle Royal.

 

 

7/15/83 St Louis

 

Tournament for the Missouri State Title

 

Round 1

Bob Orton Jr beat Manny Fernandez

Jesse Ventura beat Emile Vachon

Blackjack Lanza beat Jerry Ho

Bruce Reed beat Baron Von Raschke

Crusher Blackwell beat Buzz Tyler

Dick the Bruiser beat Bobby Duncum

Ric Flair beat Bulldog Bob Brown

Dewey Robertson beat George Wells

Hulk Hogan beat Kortsia Korchenko

 

Round 2

David Von Erich beat Bob Orton Jr

Bruce Reed beat Jesse Ventura

Blackjack Lanza beat Dick the Bruiser dq

Ric Flair beat George Wells?

Hulk Hogan nc Crusher Blackwell

 

Round 3

David Von Erich beat Blackjack Lanza

Ric Flair beat Bruce Reed

Ric Flair beat David Von Erich to win the Missouri State title

 

Another interesting result as Flair goes from NWA Champ to Missouri Champ replacing Harley who replaced him as World Champ. Notable that Blackwell didn't job and went to a no-contest with Hogan. He's still being protected like a top guy would be.

 

 

8/5/83 St Louis

 

NWA champion Harley Race beat Ric Flair

Hulk Hogan & Dick the Bruiser & Ron Ritchie (sub David Von Erich) beat Crusher Blackwell & Blackjack Mulligan & Baron Von Raschke

Bob Orton Jr beat Rick Martel

Super Destroyer beat George Wells

Barry Windham beat Tonga John

Bulldog Bob Brown and Princess Victoria beat Roger Kirby and Leilani Kai

Ron Ritchie beat Steve Hall

 

8/26/83 St Louis

 

Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell COR

Dick the Bruiser no contest Super Destroyer

David Von Erich and Jerry Lawler beat Blackjack Mulligan and Blackjack Lanza

Barry Windham beat Baron Von Raschke

Roger Kirby beat Jerry Ho (sub Dusty Rhodes)

Bob Orton Jr beat George Wells

Ron Ritchie and Mark Romero beat Sheik Abdullah and Buck Robley

 

Blackwell v. Hogan is now a big feud coming out of the Missouri tournament.

 

 

9/16/83 St Louis

 

David Von Erich beat Ric Flair to win the Missouri State title

Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell

Barry Windham and Austin Idol (Sub Dick the Bruiser) beat Super Destroyer and Bob Orton Jr

Iceman Parsons beat Roger Kirby

Blackjack Mulligan beat Jerry Ho

Buck Robley beat Ron Ritchie

George Wells and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Jerry Brown and Sheik Abdullah

 

10/8/83 St Louis

 

NWA champion Harley Race beat Hulk Hogan dq

Barry Windham and David Von Erich beat Crusher Blackwell and Super Destroyer

Blackjack Mulligan beat Buzz Tyler

Iceman Parsons beat Tonga John

Buck Robley beat Jerry Ho

Ron Ritchie & Bulldog Bob Brown & Angelo Mosca Jr beat Roger Kirby & Jerry Brown & Sheik Abdullah

 

10/21/83 St Louis

 

Hulk Hogan beat Crusher Blackwell Cage Match

Missouri State champion David Von Erich beat Super Destroyer

Dick the Bruiser and Jimmy Snuka beat Blackjack Mulligan and Killer Karl Krupp

Jimmy Snuka (sub Barry Windham) beat Roger Kirby

Iceman Parsons beat Doug Sommers

Buck Robley beat Booker T

Bulldog Bob Brown and Angelo Mosca Jr beat Jerry Brown and Tonga John

 

Blackwell v. Hogan gets strung out for several shows which tells me it probably did fairly well. Cage Match blowoff suggests a hot feud, though I know the first show here did under 5,000 which was bad for St. Louis. I wonder if Blackwell interfered in the Race match costing Hogan the title? I would almost bet on it.

 

11/25/83 St Louis

 

NWA champ Ric Flair beat David Von Erich

AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera beat Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown

Austin Idol beat Denny Brown

Iceman Parsons beat Blackjack Lanza

Paul Orndorff beat Steve Olsonoski (sub Rick Martel)

Tiger Mask (sub Buck Robley) beat Angelo Mosca Jr

666 beat Ron Ritchie

Paul Kelly and Velvet McIntyre beat Scott Farris and Peggy Lee

 

12/9/83 St Louis

 

David Von Erich vs Harley Race

Dick the Bruiser and Rick Martel beat AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera dq

Bob Orton Jr vs Rufus R Jones

Austin Idol vs Buddy Landell

Ron Ritchie vs Paul Orndorff

Buzz Tyler and Mark Stuart vs MEB and 666

Paul Kelly vs Bobby Fulton

 

The Sheiks in now and working semi-mains billed as the AWA tag champs. Wonder how this looked to the fans who had seen them feud a year or so before. I would guess there success in the AWA at the gate led to Verne - who still had a piece of the St. Louis office as I recall - sending them down South to help pop business. The first fo these shows did almost 9,000 which was a very strong number for St. Louis at that point.

 

 

1/6/84 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat King Kong Brody dq

Harley Race beat David Von Erich to win the Missouri State Title

AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera beat Dick the Bruiser and Gene Kiniski (sub Ted DiBiase)

Dory Funk Jr drew Bob Orton Jr

Ron Ritchie beat 666 (sub Buddy Landell)

Tully Blanchard (sub Buck Robley) beat Buzz Tyler

King Cobra and Tiger Mask beat Roger Kirby and Scott Farris

 

2/17/84 St Louis

 

NWA champ Ric Flair beat Barry Windham

Missouri State champion Harley Race vs Wahoo McDaniel

Dusty Rhodes vs Luke Graham

AWA tag team champions Crusher Blackwell and Ken Patera vs Buck Robley and Ron Ritchie

Dick Slater vs Cobra

Blackjack Mulligan vs Bulldog Bob Brown

Mark and Jay Youngblood vs the Grapplers

 

Sheiks still around but slipping down the card on that Feb. show and man did they have some oddball challengers for those belts in St. Louis. First listing here is actually pretty cool as they appear to have been part of a triple title match billing up top on a show that was deliberately stacked.

 

 

3/30/84 St Louis

 

Missouri State champion Harley Race beat Wahoo McDaniel

Bruce Reed and the Blackjacks beat Crusher Blackwell & Ken Patera & Luke Graham

Jimmy Garvin beat Chris Adams

Dick the Bruiser beat Scott Farris

One Man Gang beat Hacksaw Duggan dq

Dick Slater beat Buzz Tyler

The Fabulous Ones beat TG Stone and Pat Kelly

Ted Oates and Les Thornton vs The Grapplers

 

Six-man semi-main on a very strange show. This would be the last appearance of the Sheiks in St. Louis.

 

Blackwell misses the May show but was scheduled in the semi-main.

 

6/1/84 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair drew Kerry Von Erich

Blackjack Lanza and Blackjack Mulligan beat Crusher Blackwell and Sheik Adnan El Kaissey

Wahoo McDaniel beat Kimala dq

Jim Duggan beat Luke Graham

The Grapplers beat Ted Oates and Tom Ivory (sub Jerry Oates)

Tommy Rogers beat TG Stone

Marty Jannetty beat Roger Kirby

 

6/22/84 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Wahoo McDaniel

Crusher Blackwell & Buddy Roberts & Michael Hayes beat Blackjack Lanza & Billy robinson & Iceman Parsons

Missouri State champion Harley Race beat Curt Hennig

Nick Bockwinkel beat Steve Olsonoski

Ted Oates (sub Jim Duggan) beat Luke Graham

Marty Jannetty and Tommy Rogers beat The Grapplers

TG Stone beat Art Crews

Ted Oates beat Akio Sato

 

Blackwell likely with his last appearance as a Sheik like heel in the first match with Adnan in St. Louis. Show does almost 7,700 a good gate for St. Louis though you would think most of that would be attributed to the main event. Interesting to see him teaming with the Birds against a hilarious opposition on the second show. Still in semi-mains.

 

7/13/84 St Louis

 

Kerry Von Erich and Barry Windham beat Ric Flair and Crusher Blackwell

Missouri State champion Harley Race no contest Wahoo McDaniel

Missing Link beat Rufus R Jones

Fabulous Moolah and Peggy Lee beat Wenona Little Heart and Desiree Peterson

Marty Jannetty drew Grappler #1

Grappler #2 beat Tommy Rogers

Ted Oates beat TG Stone

 

8/3/84 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair vs Kerry Von Erich

Iceman Parsons beat Missouri State champion Harley Race dq

Blackjack Lanza vs Sheik Adnan El Kaissey

Tommy Rogers vs Grappler #1 Beard vs Mask

Crusher Blackwell and Luke Graham vs Jim Brunzell and Buzz Tyler

Dick the Bruiser vs Chris Markoff

Marty Jannetty vs Ted Oates

Art Crews vs Gypsy Joe

 

Blackwell in what looks like it would have been an incredibly great tag team main event on the first show, though it did shit business of barely 4k. Second show he is in the mid-card which was almost unheard of for him in St. Louis, but this was right around the time he would be setting up for his face turn IIRC.

 

9/14/84 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Harley Race

AWA tag team champions The Road Warriors beat Dick the Bruiser and Blackjack Lanza

Chris Adams beat Jimmy Garvin

Stella Mae French beat Precious

Crusher Blackwell beat Jim Brunzell COR

Tony Atlas & Ted DiBiase & Buzz Tyler beat Ox Baker & Hacksaw Higgins & Mr Saito

Gypsy Joe beat Tommy Rogers

Marty Jannetty beat TG Stone

 

His last heel appearance in St. Louis?

 

 

10/5/84 St Louis

 

King Kong Brody no contest Crusher Blackwell

AWA tag team champions The Road Warriors beat Ted DiBiase and Buzz Tyler

Tony Atlas beat Paul Ellering

Hacksaw Higgins beat Buzz Tyler (sub Dick the Bruiser)

Jim Brunzell and Bulldog Bob Brown beat the Grapplers

Mr Pogo beat Tony Russo (sub Steve Olsonoski)

Gypsy Joe and The Animal beat Marty Jannetty and Tommy Rogers

 

Weak show, but notable that Brody v. Blackwell was a good enough spike in the AWA where they took it to headline St. Louis. Still you have to wonder what the fuck the logic was in booking this card the way it was booked. Talent is insanely thin.

 

12/7/84 St Louis

 

Crusher Blackwell won a 20 man battle royal

Kerry Von Erich beat Crusher Blackwell

Wahoo McDaniel beat Hacksaw Higgins (sub King Kong Brody)

Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Gypsy Joe and Mr Pogo

Rufus R Jones beat Sheik Abdullah

Roger Kirby and Ken Timbs beat Mark and Jay Youngblood

TG Stone beat Dusty Wolfe (sub Blackjack Lanza)

Steve Olsonoski and Marty Jannetty beat Buzz Tyler and Mike Bond

 

Blackwell in a double duty main event. Card did a little less than 5,500 which was a solid number but nothing great.

 

Misses the first show in 85, which did 8k with Flair v. Brody on top.

 

1/25/85 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair beat Kerry Von Erich

King Kong Brody beat Kimala dq

Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell

Terry Funk beat Wahoo McDaniel Texas Death Match

Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Ken Timbs and Mr Pogo

Candi Divine beat Diane Von Hoffman

Rufus R Jones beat the Outlaw

Marty Jannetty and Art Crews beat Sheik Abdullah and Gary Royal

 

2/15/85 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair drew King Kong Brody

Missouri State champion Crusher Blackwell no contest Harley Race

Wahoo McDaniel beat Gene Kiniski

Sgt Slaughter beat Missing Link

Dick the Bruiser and Bulldog Bob Brown beat Sheik Abdullah and Mr Pogo

Rufus R Jones beat Roger Kirby (sub Baron Von Raschke)

Marty Jannetty beat Ken Timbs dq

Art Crews and Dusty Wolfe (sub Dave Peterson) beat Gary Royal and TG Stone

 

3/8/85 St Louis

 

AWA champion Rick Martel vs Nick Bockwinkel

Missouri State champion Crusher Blackwell vs Bulldog Bob Brown

Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell vs Masked Superstar and Mr Saito

Sgt Slaughter vs Wahoo McDaniel

Jimmy Garvin vs Mike Von Erich

American Starship beat Marty Jannetty and Steve Olsonoski

Dick the Bruiser beat Mr Pogo dq

Rufus R Jones vs Ken Timbs

 

Blackwell v. Race is rolled out a couple of times once on a stacked show that does nearly 11,000 which was probably the last huge number in St. Louis territory history. The company is really all over the place at this point. Blackwell gets his second Missouri Title run. They put him against the unimpressive Central States forever Bob Brown.

 

Blackwell misses all but one of the next five shows where he is in a mid-card tag match.

 

8/2/85 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair vs Harley Race

Harley Race beat Crusher Blackwell to become the Missouri State champion

Dick the Bruiser vs Mr Pogo Texas Death Match

Michael Hayes and Terry Gordy vs Curt Hennig and Steve Olsonoski

Rufus R Jones vs Starship Coyote

Bulldog Bob Brown vs Sheik Abdullah

Marty Jannetty & Dave Peterson & Art Crews vs Super Destroyer & Gary Royal & Boo Thomas

 

Harley does double duty. By this point Blackwell's health was on the decline and promotion was clearly winding down though Flair and Race are still around as often as they can be to try and keep things alive.

 

9/20/85 St Louis

 

NWA champion Ric Flair vs Harley Race

King Kong Brody vs One Man Gang

AWA champion Rick Martel vs Jimmy Garvin

Crusher Blackwell vs Kamala

NWA Jr champion Denny Brown vs Gary Royal

Larry and Curt Hennig vs Mr Pogo and Boo Thomas

Bulldog Bob Brown vs Dave Peterson

Art Crews vs Sheik Abdullah

plus a midget tag bout

 

The last result with Blackwell in it. On a stacked show he's in a prominent match albeit one in the mid-card.

 

Really hard to get a feel for if Blackwell was a draw of any magnitude or not in St. Louis. What is indisputable is that he was a star and a star from the jump right through until the end. He was consistently in semi-mains or main events, was given the Missouri title twice and was booked against everyone from Harley to Flair to Andre to Hogan. The "he was only a star in the AWA" talking point that I sort of conceded on the podcast appears to be wrong.

[puropotsy]

I heard today that Carlos Colon is nominated as a performer and not as a promoter, so I guess he can only be considered in terms of being a draw, as his in-ring work is generally not well-regarded. Still, with the creation of the new geographical category and people probably wanting to vote for him as a promoter even if he is not listed that way, he might still get in.

[Loss]

I'm not sure I get that. It makes me wonder how Giant Baba is in. How Stu Hart is in. How Bill Watts is in. I think for any candidate, we should be allowed to look at all of their contributions.