Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

[Ricky Jackson]

Don't get a swell head about it John, but damn your Chicago/Spears/Hogan/Cher/Edge/Warrior/Sting argument is a thing of beauty.

[Frankensteiner]

Another name that I don't think has been mentioned is Jeff Jarrett. He was active the entire decade. His case probably hinges on his USWA footage, of which I've seen very little. Is there enough there to make a judgment?

[rainmakerrtv]

If it is effective, then clearly other people think it is good. The "Britney" argument sucks. Especially if you're using it on something that has proven to have long term appeal.

Chicago hit the Top 10 for the first time in 1970 with "Make Me Smile", "25 or 6 to 4" and "Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?"

 

They hit the Top 10 for the final times in 1988-89 with "I Don't Wanna Live Without Your Love", "Look Away", "You're Not Alone" and "What Kind Of Man Would I Be?"

 

They hit #1 for the first time in 1976 with "If You Leave Me Now", and the final time in 1988 with "Look Away" that was amazingly enough Billboards #1 single of the year for 1988.

 

So... Long term appeal = GREAT~! Band in the case of Chicago?

 

Or were/are they simply an effective charting pop band?

 

When you think of great bands that have been around since they were formed (1967), does Chicago really come to mind?

 

Strangely, this is the second time I have posted this today (on 2 different boards), but ....

 

Chicago's first 2 albums were awesome. I can't really vouch for the other 87.

 

Back to wrestling talk ...

[Paul Jacobi]

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread.

 

I have him at #1 for the US in the 90’s, with Hart 2 and probably Steve Austin (especially thanks to some great variety between the DA, Blonds, WCW singles, initial Stone Cold---Brawling Stone Cold).

 

I have to get Will’s set to revisit ECW.

 

The Rockers were the best WWF tag team in 90 and 91 with a great match vs the Orient Express at the ’91 Rumble as well as some other very, very good stuff sprinkled in those 2 years vs. Demolition (SNME), Hart Foundation (SNME), Powers of Pain (MSG), Haku & Barbarian (Mania) and I’m sure if I dug through the Rockers comp I have, I’d find more.

 

Bret is the best WWF singles in 1992 and 1993, while I think Michaels equals him in ’94 and in my opinion passes him for good from 1995-1997.

 

I like the Razor ladder match more than the Bret/Owen mania match or the cage match. I think the Diesel/Shawn vs Razor/Kid Action Zone match is one of the best WWF tags ever. I also really love the Shawn/Razor match from 8/94 on Raw. Really, aside from the Owen matches and the 123 Kid Raw match what are the other really great Bret matches in ’94?

 

Bret’s ’95 has one awesome match, with Bulldog at the December PPV. I like it even more than the Summerslam one.

 

The Rumble match with Nash is pretty good, but the Survivor Series one, cool ending aside, I always felt dragged.

 

He also had some nice matches with Jean Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi.

 

Shawn has the Jarrett match which is probably the WWF MOTY and the ladder rematch with Razor that’s close to the quality of the first.

 

He’s got some real underappreciated stuff with Davey Boy this year with a really good RAW match from March and then another really good one from MSG that October (with their roles reversed).

 

I also recently watched a Razor/Diesel vs. Shawn/Jarrett MSG match from March of 95 that was fun as hell.

 

Shawn’s Mania match with Diesel is ok, but not near the level of the great match they had the next year.

 

Bret has little in ’96. The January Undertaker match and Feb. Nash matches aren’t all that good. (particularly compared to the ones they had or would have) The Iron Man match is still pretty good I think, but wouldn’t crack a best of for him or Shawn. The Austin Survivor Series match is awesome and I think there’s a pretty good Vader/Bret Raw match in December or maybe that’s ’97.

 

Unlike Jerome, I think Shawn’s ’96 kicks ass. I also think Loss underrated several of the, particularly the Nash one. He’s got a borderline great match with Owen in February, a really good sprint with the 123 Kid in march, the Iron man match, then the best match of Nash’s life in April.

 

Loss had it in the 90’s and I think it’s probably Shawn’s 2nd best match of the year behind the Foley one. Nash was booked like a killer and Shawn had a great babyface performance overcoming all of the odds and punishment and taking out the giant.

 

His Bulldog series had one subpar match and one very good one (KotR). The 6 Man at IYH is pretty great, the Vader match is ok, and the Foley match is my WWF MOTY (slightly over Austin/Hart). There’s also a really good tv match with Triple H that was worked well as a Champion vs mid carder match in which he gave the challenger a lot and then won cleanly.

 

In ’97 I also feel he also has an edge over Bret. Bret was in one of the best WWF matches ever against Austin, but I like the initial HiaC as much or more. Other than that, Bret’s got the 4 way with Austin, Vader and Undertaker ,a pretty good match with Austin at the April show, a really, really good Taker match from England and the screwjob match. Shawn’s got a great Raw tag w/ Austin vs Owen and DBS, a very good match with Austin at KotR, a great brawl with Taker at Ground Zero, a really, really good match with DBS in England, the aforementioned HiaC, the screwjob match, a great sprint with Owen on RAW in December, another great sprint with Foley in late August, and a really good tag with Triple H vs UT & Mankind.

 

I feel Shawn’s biggest matches (Foley, Hell in a Cell, Jarrett, the 2 Ladders, Nash IYH, Action Zone tag) are on par with (and for me a little better, but that’s more personal taste.) than Bret’s (Owen & Austin, the 2 DBS) and that he smokes him as a regular TV match performer.

 

The mark in Bret’s favor is 1 significantly better year (1992) and one year where he’s better, but Shawn is gaining (1993).

 

If that’s the factor one wants to use to rank him ahead, I disagree, but can understand it, but to suggest there’s a clear chasm between them seems off to me.

[Mad Dog]

Another name that I don't think has been mentioned is Jeff Jarrett. He was active the entire decade. His case probably hinges on his USWA footage, of which I've seen very little. Is there enough there to make a judgment?

I mentioned him page one. There's the concession stand brawl with the Moondogs. You can find that on YouTube.

[Dylan Waco]

The best 90s Rock matches I can think of off the top of my head were against Austin at Backlash 99 and the ladder match against HHH at Summerslam 98. And pace Jerry, I would argue that his in-ring performance did indeed matter a great deal. He wouldn't have talked nearly as many asses into seats if he couldn't hang in the ring. I seriously think you can literally count the huge draws who weren't at least decent in the ring on one hand.

I don't know about that.

 

Billy Graham was pretty fucking awful in the ring, among the worst I've ever seen.

 

Big Daddy is widely regarded as one of the two or three worst wrestlers of all time.

 

Notwithstanding the views of some on this board, Old Andre is not someone who evokes many fond memories.

 

Maurice Tillet was a freak show.

 

Primo Carnera was Primo Carnera.

 

That's five off the top of my head. I'm sure we could come up with others easily. I agree with your general point, but there have been some sorry sacks of shit in the ring who drew

[El-P]

Tiger Jeet Singh says hello.

[NintendoLogic]

I concede the point. When I wrote that, the only ones who came to mind were Big Daddy and The Sheik, maybe JYD.

[Paul Jacobi]

Austin had some good-great main event brawls in '98 with Michaels, Foley and Undertaker.

While I don't think he's #1, he did a great job adapting his style due to injury.

[jdw]

Billy Graham was pretty fucking awful in the ring, among the worst I've ever seen.

Thank god I'm not the only one.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I think a "who was worse in the ring: Billy Graham or Jesse Ventura?" debate would be quite hotly contested.

[Mad Dog]

I've seen good Billy Graham matches. I've seen one decent Ventura match.

[smkelly]

For 1996, what did Regal do after the Sting feud? I thought about putting him on the list somewhere as a HMbut 1996 is probably the only year he would make it.

Regal's '96:

 

Fit Finlay vs. Steven Regal - Uncensored '96 (3/24/96)

Fit Finlay vs. Steve Regal - Nitro (4/96 - Parking Lot Brawl)

Steven Regal vs. Fit Finlay Sat Night (4/13/96)

Sting vs. Steve Regal GAB 96 (6/16/96)

Chris Benoit vs. Steve Regal Nitro (11/25/96 - US Title Tournament)

Steve Regal vs. Chris Benoit Nitro (12/2/96)

[NintendoLogic]

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread.

He's not being slept on. It's just that other workers are more highly regarded.

 

Here's my breakdown of 1994-97:

 

1994-Bret. For me, the ladder match is something that doesn't hold up at all. We've had nearly two decades of people falling off of ladders in dangerous and inventive ways, so it's kind of hard to get worked up over what they did at Wrestlemania. I don't really care for the Summerslam cage match either (I hate escape rule cage match), so Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania is the tiebreaker. That and the Waltman match on Raw are enough to put Bret over the top.

 

1995-Bret. HBK/Jarrett is the WWF MOTY, but my thoughts on the Summerslam ladder match echo my thoughts on the Wrestlemania one. Bret, meanwhile, had the really good IYH match with Davey, and I think the Diesel match at Survivor Series is at least on par with GFBE. I slightly prefer the former, but I wouldn't fault someone for preferring the latter. He also had good matches with the likes of Jean-Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi while slumming in the midcard.

 

1996-Shawn. Granted, this is partially due to Bret not working most of the year. But Shawn doesn't just win by default, as he was consistently at least very good. The Diesel match at GBFE and the Mankind match at Mind Games are both classics. He even got a decent match out of Sid. It should be noted, though, that Bret brought it when he was there. I've already given my thoughts on the Hart/Austin Survivor Series match.

 

1997-Bret. The Wrestlemania submission match is the WWF MOTY by a mile, and the largely forgotten rematch at Revenge of the Taker was also good. Bret/Taker at One Night Only was great, and I also think that their Summerslam match is really underrated. And don't forget Canadian Stampede. As for Shawn, the highlight of his year was the HIAC match, and I don't think it really holds up either. For one, Shawn's overselling is completely ridiculous. It's not quite Summerslam-versus-Hogan level, but it's close. Second, the whole point of the cell was to keep Shawn from running away from Undertaker. So what does Shawn do? He escapes the cell! I'm not saying that should never happen in any HIAC ever, but doing it in the very first one killed the gimmick right out the gate.

 

In sum, I only see one year where Shawn has a clear edge over Bret, and that isn't enough to offset Bret's edge over the bulk of the decade.

[jdw]

I've seen good Billy Graham matches. I've seen one decent Ventura match.

This is probably one for KHawk as the likely expert on if there's any good Jesse stuff from the AWA in his collection.

 

I haven't focused much on Jesse's WWF stuff, just doing the two Backlund matches. The MSG match is pretty bad. The Spectrum match is actually watchable. Wouldn't say "good", but after the MSG match, it's not bad. Perhaps expectations, or perhaps taking time to work more of a Bob Match than the sprinty mess of MSG.

 

John

[Paul Jacobi]

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread.

He's not being slept on. It's just that other workers are more highly regarded.

 

Here's my breakdown of 1994-97:

 

1994-Bret. For me, the ladder match is something that doesn't hold up at all. We've had nearly two decades of people falling off of ladders in dangerous and inventive ways, so it's kind of hard to get worked up over what they did at Wrestlemania. I don't really care for the Summerslam cage match either (I hate escape rule cage match), so Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania is the tiebreaker. That and the Waltman match on Raw are enough to put Bret over the top.

 

1995-Bret. HBK/Jarrett is the WWF MOTY, but my thoughts on the Summerslam ladder match echo my thoughts on the Wrestlemania one. Bret, meanwhile, had the really good IYH match with Davey, and I think the Diesel match at Survivor Series is at least on par with GFBE. I slightly prefer the former, but I wouldn't fault someone for preferring the latter. He also had good matches with the likes of Jean-Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi while slumming in the midcard.

 

1996-Shawn. Granted, this is partially due to Bret not working most of the year. But Shawn doesn't just win by default, as he was consistently at least very good. The Diesel match at GBFE and the Mankind match at Mind Games are both classics. He even got a decent match out of Sid. It should be noted, though, that Bret brought it when he was there. I've already given my thoughts on the Hart/Austin Survivor Series match.

 

1997-Bret. The Wrestlemania submission match is the WWF MOTY by a mile, and the largely forgotten rematch at Revenge of the Taker was also good. Bret/Taker at One Night Only was great, and I also think that their Summerslam match is really underrated. And don't forget Canadian Stampede. As for Shawn, the highlight of his year was the HIAC match, and I don't think it really holds up either. For one, Shawn's overselling is completely ridiculous. It's not quite Summerslam-versus-Hogan level, but it's close. Second, the whole point of the cell was to keep Shawn from running away from Undertaker. So what does Shawn do? He escapes the cell! I'm not saying that should never happen in any HIAC ever, but doing it in the very first one killed the gimmick right out the gate.

 

In sum, I only see one year where Shawn has a clear edge over Bret, and that isn't enough to offset Bret's edge over the bulk of the decade.

 

I guess I just disagree. I feel the ladder matches hold up extremely well because they weren't worked in the fashion that a lot of the modern ones were.

There isn't a ton of setting the ladder up and waiting, it's introduction into each match feels natural and the 2nd one plays off the first a lot. They bumps are still pretty crazy, but the work is much, much smarter than we'd see later on.

I also intensely disagree on Hell in a Cell not holding up. I watched that match again last week (I've been watching lots of WWF 97 of late) and it's pretty perfect.

It's a great culmination of every interaction between UT and Michaels and I disagree on his overselling. UT utterly destroys him. Even the escape was well done and it backfires on Shawn as no matter he tries to do, UT keeps coming and coming. It's only the debut of Kane that ccan stop the monster.

I also feel Bret as a character ran out of a lot of steam post Stampede that year (which you can see in Wrestling with Shadows), and I felt his match with Taker at SmmerSlam wasn't all that good.

[Dylan Waco]

Ventura/Adonis were actually a GOOD team. How much of that was due to Jesse? Not much. But he added bits and pieces here and there and was a heat magnet which certainly helped the team. He could be useful in the same way in six-mans.

 

It's possible that Ventura was worse than Graham, but I'd rather watch the average Ventura/Adonis match than any Graham match.

[JerryvonKramer]

I heard Ventura saying before that he'd aim to get to ten minutes into the match without having even having locked up. He was a pure "working the crowd" type guy, and unashamedly so.

[Mad Dog]

There was a Jesse vs. Tito Santana match for the IC title that was pretty decent. I don't remember the Hogan match but I don't think Jesse was the kind of worker that Hogan could drag something watchable out of. I haven't seen a ton of East-West Connection but if they were in good matches it was because Adonis was doing the bulk of the work.

 

Graham on the other hand. I liked the Dusty Rhodes matches a lot and there was a really good Mil Mascaras match for the WWWF Title. Oddly, that was the best Mascaras match I've seen too.

[Frankensteiner]

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread.

In hindsight, I regretted not putting Michaels as the WOTY for 1996 in favor of Scorpio. It really was his year. I loathe 21st century Michaels but that doesn't change the fact that I thought he was a pretty excellent worker pre-injury. If/when I do a top 10 list for the 90's, Michaels is a serious contender for my top 5.

[Frankensteiner]

For 1996, what did Regal do after the Sting feud? I thought about putting him on the list somewhere as a HMbut 1996 is probably the only year he would make it.

Going from memory I think Regal's best year was 94 though I could be mixing and matching stuff. I know that was the year of the Larry matches and I liked those a lot.

 

Regal's 93 and 94 are better than his 96, but relative to the rest of the field I don't think those years warrant a mention. I do think the Finlay feud was Regal's high point in WCW even if the rest of the year is a little lacking.

[Frankensteiner]

Another name that I don't think has been mentioned is Jeff Jarrett. He was active the entire decade. His case probably hinges on his USWA footage, of which I've seen very little. Is there enough there to make a judgment?

I mentioned him page one. There's the concession stand brawl with the Moondogs. You can find that on YouTube.

 

I am aware of the Moondogs feud although a lot of that seems clipped. I was hoping there's more arena footage.

[Matt D]

Is Graham/Race title vs title any good?

[Dylan Waco]

I agree with Paul that the Ladder Matches hold up and I have no problem with someone rating Shawn on top for the decade but I think it is curious that if you look at Shawn's absolute best matches they are all heavily gimmicked to the gills, with one notable exception that comes to mind:

 

Ladder matches v. Razor

Good Friends Better Enemies

HITC

MindGames

 

MindGames technically didn't have a "gimmick" but there is no disputing it was a "gimmick match" in the sense most would identify the term.

 

The one "exception" to this rule would be Jarrett v. Michaels. I have no problem calling that a great match, but I think it is CLEAR the match was worked TN style, in front of a Nashville crowd, with a Jarrett. No way in hell I'm saying Shawn doesn't deserve any of the credit, or even a lot of the credit, but it's the one time I can really remember Shawn working a match like that, so I think Jarrett deserves a lot more credit for it than he has often been given.

 

I don't think it is unfair to say those are the "consensus" best Shawn matches of the 90's. I'm not a huge fan of HITC, but I am a really big fan of all of the other matches myself. Still it is glaring to me that Shawn has exactly ONE great match from his peak decade that I would call gimmick free. Perhaps he deserves credit for being master of the gimmick match. Hell I've made that point in the past myself. But it would be nice if there were more Shawn matches that were great that were absent a gimmick.

[Dylan Waco]

It’s amazing to me how much Michaels is being slept on in this thread.

In hindsight, I regretted not putting Michaels as the WOTY for 1996 in favor of Scorpio. It really was his year. I loathe 21st century Michaels but that doesn't change the fact that I thought he was a pretty excellent worker pre-injury. If/when I do a top 10 list for the 90's, Michaels is a serious contender for my top 5.

 

Scorpio is hardly a bad pick for 96 and can easily go match for match with Shawn from that year. He also has fewer disappointments (as in "none" off the top of my head) The question is how many people have watched Scorp's best stuff?