Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

[JerryvonKramer]

I've always wondered what the story about that was. Hogan literally never jobbed, never. Especially during this WCW run. It's so random.

[FLIK]

This happened?

Yup

 

Clean?

Nope.

 

He did pin him the first week though, 2nd week was DQ win. Either way didn't stop Arn from rubbing in for quite a while afterwards if i'm remembering correctly.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm wondering now if that's the first time Hogan had been pinned since his match with Yokozuna at KotR 93.

 

I reckon it was the 4th time he'd been pinned in the 90s:

 

1. Vs. Warrior (WM6) [clean]

 

2. Vs. Undertaker (Survivor Series '91) [after a tombstone on a chair]

 

3. Vs. Yokozuna (KoTR '93) [after a fireball from a dodgy camera man]

 

4. Vs. Arn (Nitro, Feb '96) [after being hit with a shoe]

 

Were there any other times he was pinned during those 6 years?

[Ricky Jackson]

Maybe this was a bone Hogan tossed as a way to soothe some feelings before he tore through the whole heel roster at that Uncensored PPV.

[Ricky Jackson]

I'm wondering now if that's the first time Hogan had been pinned since his match with Yokozuna at KotR 93.

 

I reckon it was the 4th time he'd been pinned in the 90s:

 

1. Vs. Warrior (WM6) [clean]

 

2. Vs. Undertaker (Survivor Series '91) [after a tombstone on a chair]

 

3. Vs. Yokozuna (KoTR '93) [after a fireball from a dodgy camera man]

 

4. Vs. Arn (Nitro, Feb '96) [after being hit with a shoe]

 

Were there any other times he was pinned during those 6 years?

I'm not sure, but I can't think of any others off the top of my head. But speaking of random Hogan jobs, he was "defeated" by Mike Awesome on the 5/1 2000 Nitro and by Vampiro on the 5/22 2000 Nitro (according to Cawthon's site). I don't remember these at all. I'm assuming they weren't clean jobs.

[Gregor]

I've always wondered what the story about that was. Hogan literally never jobbed, never. Especially during this WCW run. It's so random.

I think this was right after the Billionaire Ted skit in which the Huckster said, "I never lose - it's in my contract, brother!" Then Flair got a pinfall win over Hogan (it wasn't clean), and Arn got one two weeks later.

[Victator]

Here's what I said about that match on my site:

 

Regal vs. Arn, I think, is really disappointing. People say "it's an acquired taste" but they have almost 30 minutes in which there is NOT A SINGLE wrestling maneuver until Arn's spinebuster. So that's no suplexes, no piledrivers, not even any slams. It's just hold, counter-hold, punch, hold. I think there's a place for submissions and mat-wrestling, but I really want to see a few high spots too. I'd give this match less than **, which is criminal considering the talent involved.

Maybe it could of gotten two stars if Arn had busted out his Space Flying Tiger Drop.

[smkelly]

I like a lot of the guys listed so far, but I can't see many of them really being serious contenders for US worker of the decade.

 

Ricky Steamboat did not work the entire decade. Neither did Arn Anderson.

 

They were excellent workers, but, they do not have a resume that could compete with Bret's in-terms of overall decade. Maybe in one particular year, maybe, but I look at Bret like this:

 

4-5-92 vs. Piper

8-29-92 vs. Davey Boy

6-13-93 vs. Hennig

3-20-94 vs. Owen

8-29-94 vs. Owen

12-17-95 vs. Davey Boy

11-17-96 vs. Austin

2-16-97 vs. Austin, Taker & Vader

3-23-97 vs. Austin

9-20-97 vs. Undertaker

10-4-99 vs. Benoit

 

Arn and Ricky might have better matches in some of those years, but they don't have a resume of matches like that in what time they wrestled in the decade. Though, many probably like the WCW early decade TV and PPV matches more than some of the more esteemed Hart matches, but I am not among that camp, especially in regards to some of Hart's finer performances, the MOTDC's. And then it becomes a subjective journey through aesthetics.

 

Hart had the advantage of volume and push, and I'm likely able to admit that if Arn and Ricky had had the chance to work the same calendar decade as Bret, that they'd likely be easy shoe-ins for this discussion.

[Matt D]

Since Big Bubba was brought up... I'd probably throw both him and Tenta out there.

 

Tenta was SO good at "playing his role."

[Dylan Waco]

I think most people agree that Bret Hart is one. The question now is who fills out the top ten and that's where Arn, Ricky, et. come in.

[FLIK]

So how about the Steiners as a team?

I know there's some ppl that aren't a big fan of their style around here but if you dig what they did they had a good 6 or so years of quality stuff

[MikeCampbell]

I'm wondering now if that's the first time Hogan had been pinned since his match with Yokozuna at KotR 93.

 

I reckon it was the 4th time he'd been pinned in the 90s:

 

1. Vs. Warrior (WM6) [clean]

 

2. Vs. Undertaker (Survivor Series '91) [after a tombstone on a chair]

 

3. Vs. Yokozuna (KoTR '93) [after a fireball from a dodgy camera man]

 

4. Vs. Arn (Nitro, Feb '96) [after being hit with a shoe]

 

Were there any other times he was pinned during those 6 years?

He wasn't pinned, but he submitted to Luger three times in '97.

 

1. Three hour Nitro toward the end of June in a non title single match

2. Bash at the Beach '97 in a tag match. I wanna say Hogan and Rodman vs. Lex and Giant, but I don't remember Luger's partner for sure.

3. Nitro in August of '97 - Luger won the WCW Title.

[shoe]

To me it's Bret as #1 the rest is a tough call. You see people like Benoit, Guerrero, Jericho, and Misterio's name being brought up. All great wrestlers. Does their work count from Japan, Mexico,Europe etc? You have seen people mention the J-cup etc. I think you need to evaluate their work that just takes place in the states. For this reason I see Scorpio as a better candidate compared to based on his WCW,ECW and even WWF stuff in comparison to Jericho, and Misterio. Those guys really just started popping up in 95 for ECW.

 

I'm a huge Steamboat fan. I can watch him work anytime. I still wouldn't rank him in my top 10 because he only worked for a little over 4 year in the decade. Though his best 4 years or so are probaly better than most of the top 10.

 

Count me in the pro Smother's group. I see him in the top 5 or 6. He had a lot of good matches in WCW. Most of them were tags, but had some quality singles. His run in SMW was great. he was the ace in SMW. He had good to great matches with everyone he was programmed with. He was the Ultimate face for the promotion. He was really good in ECW, and had a run of really strong Indy matches. If you haven't the Smother's comp from Will you are missing out on some great wrestling.

[Dylan Waco]

Another thing worth mentioning with Smothers is that he was very good as both a face and a heel, in tags and singles, in comedy and serious matches, in workrate matches and in brawls, et. Really he has an extremely diverse body of work.

[smkelly]

I think most people agree that Bret Hart is one. The question now is who fills out the top ten and that's where Arn, Ricky, et. come in.

I was actually going to fast reply that same train of thought after my last post.

 

Bret Hart is obviously my #1. Unlike Japan in the nineties though, it's harder to fill out the #2-10 spots, let alone, think of #'s 11 through say 100.

 

Thinking about '90s Japan produces (immediately): Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Hansen, Liger & probably Ohtani.

Dr. Death, Vader, Jumbo, Fuchi, Hashimoto, Hase, and several others come to mind almost immediately as well, rounding out the top ten and moving into #'s 11 and upwards. I could probably list them out in some sort of manner that I'd be confident about.

 

In the US:

Bret

 

It gets foggy after Bret, actually.

 

Though guys like Austin stand out more for his role in the matches against Hart, his longevity of having matches like that is comparatively low to someone like HBK, who had a series of excellent matches with a host of opponents from early in the decade up until his back injury. I really like the SummerSlam '92 match between Hart/Smith, as well their In Your House Dec '95 match, but, Davey's resume is relatively small in comparison to someone like HBK, or even Austin. Owen could be a viable #2, though. He had stellar matches against Bret in '94-95, had that one blowaway Raw match with Davey, and was in the sprint tag title match later in the same year. But even Owen suffers from longevity problems.

 

There are guys in the wings though. I guess the problem with American workers in the nineties is first of all longevity, but another major problem is the way American companies were/are booked. In-ring talent doesn't always = huge millionaire superstar. Same goes for Japan, but the disparity was much smaller. Guys WCW had employed for many years could have been having epics in Japan or Mexico or Europe had they not been held under restrictive contract obligations and booked in four to five minute Saturday Night matches. I mean, if WCW had been booked (in-terms of actual working) in similar regards to All Japan, where the super-workers get to do their job like they can instead of what fits into a storyline, then I think WCW would be remembered more for their in-ring work than their failed storylines, as well, the notion of having easier and identifiable picks for worker of the decade would be a realistic one.

 

The obvious steps for determining this type of thing is to talk about matches. Listmania, man.

 

I think this project, if it turns out to be more than just discussion, would be better off if done post-yearbook releases. But it would be something to stand on once all the yearbooks in the nineties are completed though. It'd be interesting to see how much variation in opinions occur from now to whenever all the yearbooks have been released and talked about - of which, Loss will have like 100,000 posts.

[Mad Dog]

So how about the Steiners as a team?

I know there's some ppl that aren't a big fan of their style around here but if you dig what they did they had a good 6 or so years of quality stuff

I think as a team they deserve mention out there. They were unique and innovative for their time. They were really the first suplex machine team that would become popular later in the decade. And if you go back and watch them, they just hit moves from angles and situations you wouldn't expect or see. I think as a unit they would have merit in a top 100 situation. In a top team situation, I think the Rock N Roll Express would be the top team of the decade for SMW and the Steiners would probably be in the 2-4 range.

[El-P]

I think this project, if it turns out to be more than just discussion, would be better off if done post-yearbook releases. But it would be something to stand on once all the yearbooks in the nineties are completed though. It'd be interesting to see how much variation in opinions occur from now to whenever all the yearbooks have been released and talked about - of which, Loss will have like 100,000 posts.

Agreed.

Athough the yearbooks give such a wide spectrum that one could think about a GW of the 90's discussion/poll when it's all done. From there you can get the top 10 for each style : US, Lucha, Puro, Joshi...

Anyway, great thread.

[Mad Dog]

I think most people agree that Bret Hart is one. The question now is who fills out the top ten and that's where Arn, Ricky, et. come in.

My biggest problem with Steamboat is it feels like he had that nice run in WCW and then he was done by mid 1994. I feel like someone who worked the entire decade or further into the decade deserves more consideration than someone who didn't even make the halfway point.

 

I would tend to think Bret Hart, Vader and maybe Chris Candido would be the closest to a consensus top 3 that you would get on here. Maybe Tracy Smothers and Arn Anderson as well.

[ohtani's jacket]

Judging this sort of thing by the number of great matches a worker had doesn't get us anywhere.

 

Look at Eddie Guerrero's 1997: great heel turn, fantastic acting, but all he has to show for it match wise is one all-time great match against Rey Mysterio, Jr. and one or two other TV matches against him. Even if you look at his US work from '94-99 it's hard to find too many truly great matches yet many people liked Eddie as a worker and would consider him for the top 10 on that basis. Bret's best year was arguably 1994 and even then he only has the two matches against Owen, the TV match against 123-Kid and the Steiners tag if you're being generous, but again people liked the run. And that's what it boils down to for 90s US work -- great runs, not great matches. Flair's last great run (in my opinion) was 1990 and that was solely on the basis of big theatrical matches with Luger. Owen had a great run in 1994. Doink the Clown had a run in 1993, and on it goes. But I can't think of any two workers who was as consistently good week in, week out as Arn Anderson and Ricky Steamboat in 1992. It helped that WCW had a strong angle that year and great TV (for the first six months, anyway), but Arn Anderson and Ricky Steamboat were the MVPs of the heel and face sides, IMO. The argument that Arn was only solid is probably true, but solid (and by solid I would consider it truly entertaining) beats out 90% of the other wrestling in the 90s. No, he wasn't as shit hot as Tully Blanchard in the mid-to-late 80s, but US wrestling in the 90s wasn't anywhere near as good as US wrestling in the 80s so I don't see how that detracts from what was the best stuff of the 90s: the Dangerous Alliance feud. There are workers who I think had longer stretches of being solid than Arn and Steamboat, namely Windham from 1990-93 and Dustin Rhodes from '92-94, but I don't think either of those guys were ever as good in the ring as Arn and Steamboat at their best.

 

Anyway, this is a tricky subject for the precise reason that there weren't endless great matches from US workers in the 90s. Personally, I would place consistency and "solid, but truly entertaining" above any other criteria. Hell, going off the deep end for a second, Arn's contribution to the Studd Stable feud is better in my eyes than anything Shawn Michaels did in the entire decade. But if matches are the criteria, I'd like to see the winner.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm wondering now if that's the first time Hogan had been pinned since his match with Yokozuna at KotR 93.

 

I reckon it was the 4th time he'd been pinned in the 90s:

 

1. Vs. Warrior (WM6) [clean]

 

2. Vs. Undertaker (Survivor Series '91) [after a tombstone on a chair]

 

3. Vs. Yokozuna (KoTR '93) [after a fireball from a dodgy camera man]

 

4. Vs. Arn (Nitro, Feb '96) [after being hit with a shoe]

 

Were there any other times he was pinned during those 6 years?

He wasn't pinned, but he submitted to Luger three times in '97.

 

1. Three hour Nitro toward the end of June in a non title single match

2. Bash at the Beach '97 in a tag match. I wanna say Hogan and Rodman vs. Lex and Giant, but I don't remember Luger's partner for sure.

3. Nitro in August of '97 - Luger won the WCW Title.

 

I was assuming he'd done quite afew jobs as Hollywood Hogan since he played such a cowardly Memphis-style heel.

 

But jobs as the red and yellow were few and far between. Someone mentioned he was pinned by Flair shortly a week or two before the Arn match??? Anyone got any further detail on that?

[Matt D]

I've always felt great matches is one of the worst ways to judge great workers, especially if we're talking in the US. for WWF it's a little bit easier in the 80s when you had so many taped house shows, but even then.

[ohtani's jacket]

Oh, and Jerry, you really need to stop judging everything based on PPV matches. There is no way that Arn vs. Flair is a top 5 match on any list bar "matches I never want to see again in my life." Thank you.

[Mad Dog]

It wasn't a great match but I think the Guerrero/Syxx ladder match from Souled Out 97 is a bit of an overlooked gem.

[El-P]

To me Bret has both the great matches and the consistency, with a TV format that didn't allow him to be entertaining on a wek to week basis. Bret was solid as hell during the whole decade and had the great matches scattered from 1990 to 1999. He's a no-brainer N°1.

[Dylan Waco]

I think most people agree that Bret Hart is one. The question now is who fills out the top ten and that's where Arn, Ricky, et. come in.

My biggest problem with Steamboat is it feels like he had that nice run in WCW and then he was done by mid 1994. I feel like someone who worked the entire decade or further into the decade deserves more consideration than someone who didn't even make the halfway point.

 

I would tend to think Bret Hart, Vader and maybe Chris Candido would be the closest to a consensus top 3 that you would get on here. Maybe Tracy Smothers and Arn Anderson as well.

 

 

After watching all the SMW and ECW no way in hell I would have Candido in my top ten. I like the guy, but there just isn't anything there to justify it. And this is coming from someone who had assumed he would be "the find" of both projects.