JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Over on the DVDR 80s project Too Short match reviews, I've seen guys let a bad performance from the ref adversely affect their rating of the match. I think Goodhelmet is pretty big on this. So ... What are you looking for from a ref? What are some examples of the best and worst refs? Who is your favourite ref? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think in short, when there are three guys in the ring and you forget the third guy is there, the referee is doing his job. Adding to that slightly, counting too slow or too fast can mess up the rhythm of the match if the counting isn't in sync with the action in the ring. Occasionally, you have an overachiever like Tommy Young who's not afraid to take a ridiculous bump (see the Road Warriors/Horsemen match at Starrcade '87). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Wouldn't your criteria make Tommy Young pretty much the worst ref ever? I don't think I've ever seen a match with Young involved where I haven't noticed him. He's really loud and vocal. He's got that crazy dive over the lateral press into the three count he does. He's a ref who will kick someone's hand off the ropes. He takes the bumps like you said. Could you seriously argue that Young wasn't noticeable? Same goes for Joe Higuchi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Tommy Young is the exception to the rule. Most refs aren't capable of doing the stuff he could do, so I'd rather them not try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Tommy Young, PeeWee and Earl Hebner are the best referees IMO. There's something special about Hebner counting the three in a big title match. Theodore Long comes to mind as one that I have memories of fucking up counts in big situations. There are several guys in the 80s that were beyond horrible but I can't remember their names. I recall one guy couldn't even get down to his knees and the wrestlers would just have to stare while he waddled over and struggled to his knees to make the count. I've seen several look at the heels cheating and look away real quick in business exposing moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 This is partially WWF booking, but Earl's slow counts after a ref bump were incredibly obnoxious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I edited my post because I realized I was being an asshole. My apologies. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Those were awful. His going totally limp act kind of sucked too. My thing with Earl Hebner are that, he jumped to TNA and suddenly the main event title changes seemed a little more epic in scale and it was because he was counting the three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Who's that Mid South ref that Will always rips on? Jerry something. Also, Randy "don't call me Pee Wee" Anderson also had a signature dive into the 3 count. Anderson was one of the more athletic refs. I'd probably take him over Nick Patrick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Nick Patrick was an AMAZING heel and is the right guy when there's an angle that requires the referee to be central to the storyline, but yeah, as a regular referee, he is lacking something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 David Manning of World Class was the most reviled ref from the 80s project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 This is the kind of thing Nick Patrick is great for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irkQlGfBTYc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 What all does David Manning do wrong? I've probably seen him, I'm just terrible at remembering referees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I always forget, Nick Patrick was kind of a big guy for a referee. He has a credibility doing that stuff that other referee's lack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Patrick, like Young, was one ref who'd kick the heels hand if he was getting cheap leverage on something like an abdominal stretch. He's also a ref who would shove a guy getting in his face. I'm currently watching Arn vs. Dusty from 1985 (for the TV title) - the ref is Mike Fever and he's basically fat. I don't think that's something a ref can get away with. Earl Hebner is just like average size, but Mike Fever has a massive beer gut. Did Turner / Herd fire all the fat NWA refs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 There's a Sheik Toronto match on the Wrestling Gold set where David Meltzer commented that the referee needed a bra. Actually, the Wrestling Gold set is good if you want to see some shitty referees in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Looks like Mike Fever went on to be a jobber for WCW: There he is jobbing to PN News. Two side points on that video: 1. PN News's rapping is the worst in the world 2. Does anyone else LOVE the way Gary Michael Capetta would announce jobbers? He always made the sound like the lamest people in the world. I think he might have done it deliberately. Anyway, Fever is no fatter in that video than he is as a ref in 1985. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I think in short, when there are three guys in the ring and you forget the third guy is there, the referee is doing his job. Anyone besides me hate current indy darling ref Bryce Rymsberg for being the exact opposite of this? Dude draws way too much attention to himself most of the time and it's always annoying. I do dig him as a commentator so wish he'd just stick to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 What all does David Manning do wrong? I've probably seen him, I'm just terrible at remembering referees. He tended to be a very visible part of matches and angles, overturning decisions, cutting promos, getting into it with wrestlers in a heavy-handed way. You could argue, and some did during discussion of the set, that the fault lay more with Fritz Von Erich as the booker than with Manning himself. But regardless, Manning was the epitome of a ref who acted like he was just as important as the wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Ivan Putski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 The kind of refs I can't stand are the ones that are so old that it takes them 5 minutes to make a 3 count. Like Bronco Lubrich, Frank Morrell and Paul Morton. A lot of CMLL refs are like that now. Just ruins the flow of the match. I also can't stand rudo refs. Old School Tirantes is the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Great referees : Tommy Ran Daichi Murayama Go Ito Nick Patrick Shitty referees : every ECW referee ever Also, I can't stand Earl Ebner. Can't stand his "epic two counts". Way overrated because he was the token big match referee in WWF for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 If they're part of an angle, then it's okay for them to be seen. Otherwise, their only job is to initiate counts, raise hands, hand over belts, tell people to ring the bell, make 'X' signs to signal injury, be consistent and do pre-match weapon pat-downs. If they possess intelligence, they should be a good ref. Age and mobility has a lot to do with a good ref as well. Examples of Bad Refs: * The old guy in Memphis is an example of that. His two-counts were really like an Earl Hebner eight-count. He was like the Rik Smits of referring. Some of the lucha refs are incredibly slow too. * The ref Jericho talks about in his book made me shudder. A ref doing a drop-down spot? Oh, he had his own entrance music too. * There are some examples where All Japan refs have taken their jobs too seriously. I remember one ref dragging an 'unconscious' Steve Williams on top of his opponent, and then making the pinfall count. I don't like that crap in All Japan. * Some of the WWE refs have been caught 'witnessing' things that would constitute a disqualification. Making bad pinfalls is also a curse. Being out of position is also a problem. * NWA/WCW/TNA have some of the most clumsy, weak-kneed, moronic referees to ever foul up a wrestling match. * Ring of Honor refs that oversell Big Indy Moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BermudaRef Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I would put out Charles Robinson and Brian Hildebrand for quality referees. I could see Brian getting some "blame" for the style of refereeing that is so prevalent now in the selling of big moves. Brian was extremely expressive when he was reffing. Earl Hebner is a great ref, but after years of watching him, his telegraphing of finishes through his counts is incredibly distracting. With the criticism of some of the Japanese refs like Joe Higuchi, I would point out one element of referees that I think they catch flak for that is hard for them to do anything about. The one thing I think that Joe Higuchi did have was that the wrestlers did actually listen to him. Yes, they would still get their heat spots by cheating, but many times if Joe actually stepped up to a guy to move him back, the guy would move back. Many times today the wrestlers seem to forget that they have a role in the referees credibility as well. I also liked some of the little things that Joe did. He would often not count a pinfall off of a double team move in a tag match. I do like that since competition in a tag theoretically is supposed to be still one on one. I can easily see arguements for how it can kill the flow and some of the heat, but somehow I never got that when I watched him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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