Dylan Waco Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I honestly don't understand what your point is as it seems to have changed several times in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 My original point was that WWF had depth and JCP cards were thin. We argued. We analysed. We went back and forth. I agreed to the concept of "meaningless depth". I agreed that JCP did more with less in 86. I agreed that WWF had meaningless depth in 86, with some lingering reservations. As far as I'm concerned that argument ended there. My second point, from yesterday or the day before, has been that from 88 onwards WWF built "meaning" into their roster more and more and that the charge of "meaningless depth" no longer stands for the 88-92 period. And that Hogan, while obviously the ace and chief drawing card, was gradually surrounded by stars in their own right who could draw shows on their own. This has been my argument in the past couple of days. Just to be clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Was Jake v. Dibiase a feud of note? Was it something built on tv? Was it a storyline people were invested in? Jake is one of the all time greats at getting over an angle and making you remember it - I have no memory of such a thing. At all. This was built upon. Jake stole the Million Dollar Belt and Ted was trying to get it back but Jake would put it with Damian much to the frustration of Virgil who ended up on the other side of a DDT for his troubles almost every time they were in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Was Jake v. Dibiase a feud of note? Was it something built on tv? Was it a storyline people were invested in? Jake is one of the all time greats at getting over an angle and making you remember it - I have no memory of such a thing. At all. This was built upon. Jake stole the Million Dollar Belt and Ted was trying to get it back but Jake would put it with Damian much to the frustration of Virgil who ended up on the other side of a DDT for his troubles almost every time they were in the ring. I have no memory of this at all which is pretty amazing considering some of the random 80's angles I remember vividly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 It also looks like they ran that feud in 89-90, not 88. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I don't believe there is any connection between that brief 88 house show run with Jake and Ted and the later feud in 89, which I assumed everyone would know about. I believe that kicked off at Mania V when Andre was fueding with Jake and DiBiase sneaks in and tries steal Damian (this could be an isolated one off incident, but it's the first on-screen interaction I know about -- aside from the Spectrum match mentioned above). They slow burned that fued all the way until Mania VI which is the blow off. Jake's promos during it are electric, I think it's one of the hottest feuds of that time frame. The 88 run was probably a "try out" to see if those two could work together and draw ok. Vince famously used house shows to do that sort of thing. If there are any Jake on Ted or Ted on Jake promos from 88 I've never seen them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Jerry, are you contending that these shows were loaded based on the names & reps of guys in the lineups down the road in their careers? Or is it based on going back and reviewing what was pushed on tv, in magazines, at earlier shows or other large mediums as draws? Not looking to be obstinate but I don't see it otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Jerry, are you contending that these shows were loaded based on the names & reps of guys in the lineups down the road in their careers? Or is it based on going back and reviewing what was pushed on tv, in magazines, at earlier shows or other large mediums as draws? Not looking to be obstinate but I don't see it otherwise. I'm saying that in January 88 Honky vs. Savage was a built feud, Jake was hot, DiBiase was hot, Bam Bam was being pushed, Hart Foundation were being pushed (in tag division), Strike Force were featured. I can't see any argument to say Jake or DiBiase weren't pushed on TV in that timeframe because they were. Bam Bam was brought in for a face run, we know it was short lived, but in Jan 88 he was being pushed. Hart Foundation and Strike Force were both on TV. The "momentum" argument about the Bulldogs and Demolition is that they were quietly being kept strong enough to be viable contenders for the tag titles. This isn't about viewing cards in a vacuum or picking out "big names", this is viewing cards in context with an eye on who was featured, who had screentime and who was hot. I don't think you can make the argument that Ted vs. Jake on a houseshow in January 88 is the equivalent of a "meaningless" thrown together Muraco vs. Orndorff match in 86. It wasn't. Both guys were hot and super over. I don't think they would have run shows with that match on top if they didn't think people were going to turn up for it. I'm saying they are "loaded" exactly by the terms outlined for JCP's "loaded" cards from 86 that we talked about earlier. It is applying principles derived from the earlier conversation to cards put on by WWF in 1988 at a time when (I'm arguing) WWF were adding meaning to their depth. I've argued that they started doing this more in 88 and that by 90-92 they were really good at it. I've argued that the charge of "meaningless depth" no longer applies after 87. I don't think this is a very difficult argument to grasp, even if I can understand confusion with the earlier argument. I've done my best to clarify that. It's clear no one is going to budge from what they think here, so why not leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Okay. I think you're leaving out the fact that they were presenting major league quality national television, and the only brand doing so. The presentation and packaging made their product look head and shoulders above what everyone else was doing and I'd contend that these factors were as equally responsible for any house shows not drawn on the back of Hogan up to a certain point. Its all well and good to want to give credit to the booking and wrestlers, but sometimes the box sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 There's also the impact that TV had in shaping our memories of what an important feud was, and what wasn't. JCP tended to feature the entire (or virtually the entire) roster each week, either in matches or promos. Show me an episode of Superstars or Challenge that had the entire roster on it and I'll eat my hat. So seeing say Paul Jones vs. Jimmy Valiant brought up week in and week out, again and again and again for years, is bound to make it seem important. Whether or not it actually drew money I don't know. But Jerry is absolutely right that the WWF roster and how it was used was drastically changed between 86-88. House shows no longer had 2-3 matches that might have relevance to TV and a bunch of boring as heck meaningless matches between SD Jones, Steve Lombardi and the like. As far as the Jumping Bomb Angels meaning something............well they got tons of TV time, were the featured act in one of the Survivor Series matches and had a match at the Royal Rumble. I'd argue that for a VERY brief time, Vince was trying to present them as something new and exciting and worth seeing. That lasted maybe 3 months and that's pushing it. Whether or not anyone actually bought a ticket to see Japanese women's wrestling in the Northeast in 1988..........Yeah I really tend to doubt it sadly. The July 91 Superstars taping in Worcester MA I attended (not announced as such) had more than 2 hot things on it. You got to see. Hulk Hogan vs. the Undertaker - 1 on 1, first time ever, Hogan vs the hottest new heel in some time. I was a huge Undertaker mark as a kid (loved the old classic movie monsters) and was the ONLY kid in the Centrum screaming for Hogan to get his clock cleaned here. The Ultimate Warrior vs. Mr. Perfect - IC title - Warrior no showed but darn do I remember wanting to see this match as kid cause I assumed Perfect had no shot in hell and I'd be seeing a title change Jake Roberts, Big Bossman and LOD vs. Nasties, Earthquake and The Mountie - Okay well this is only one match but it's THREE hot programs all at once. Jake-Quake had me very interested, Bossman-Mountie had featured one of the more vicious beatings on WWF tv to kickstart the feud and the LOD were a HOT act in 91 in my area as many kids had their shirt or hats in the playground and loved emulating them. You could easily have broken this up into 3 matches. Of course Jake being Jake, he no showed also. Bret Hart vs. the Barbarian - When this was announced the idea was that Bobby was throwing the Barbarian at Bret to stop him getting to Mr. Perfect, just like he did with the Bossman. Between it being set up and the show Heenan retired as manager, so the point of this was sort of lost. Sid Justice vs. Typhoon - The debut of the hot new babyface of the year. I remember being psyched to see this mainly cause I knew Sid's finisher was the powerbomb and I remember my friends and I arguing in the playground over whether he could or could not do it to a 380 lb guy. The match didn't draw many in, but Sid's debut definitely hyped my interest a lot. Also we were told via the six weeks of event center promos (only local area but given they were 10 minutes of the show total I'd argue they were v important) that Bobby Heenan would have a big announcement for all of us at this show. And unlike most of these this one delivered in spades as he came out with the WCW title and announced Ric Flair was coming to the WWF. I actually lost friends over being called a liar about this in the school yard the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 1) Jerry says: Possibly it was that way in 85 and 86, but Vince is too clever to put all his eggs in one basket. He diversified his assets and made many many different stars, of which Hogan was only the brightest. I think the reading that says it's still just Hogan in 88, 89, 90, 91 is overly reductive. The point was that Vince is clever by putting all eggs in one basket. Pumping up Michael Jordan by surrounding him with a league of Vinnie Del Negros is brilliant. The 88-92 argument you are making is kind of a fascinating one. Traditionally people would say that in 1989/1990 in the process of feeding Ultimate Warrior enough meat to make him credible as a challenger for World Title, they failed to also build up any heels to be credible opponents to World Champion Ultimate Warrior. People point out that there were no credible main event heels and so Warrior was forced to go back through his IC title challengers ( Perfect, Dibiase, Haku, etc) and then team with Road Warriors opposite Demolition (none of whom were credible enough to work Warrior as main event singles opponent). Hogan v Perfect did poorly, the Hogan v Earthquake houseshows dissapointed, and the business was so bad that the WWF cut down the number of crews they used and fired a bunch of folks, with stuff not really recovering till 96. So argument being made is: "Vince stopped putting all eggs in one basket in 88, and it all fell apart"? 2) JDW v Kramer argument Jerry says you've made no real attempt to engage with the argument I actually made. huh? Jerry's argument #1 WWF had feuds up and down the card for most of that time. Some of those feuds were pretty hot too. The booking in general is sensational for most of that time, up and down the card. jdw engagement in argument The WWF, with their split crews, tended to have Hogan Match + #2 Match + Everyone Else cards, which on non-Hogan cards tended to be IC/WTT Match + #2 Drawing Feuding Match + Everyone Else. Jerry moves argument to 88-92 bring it back to the sports analogy, if in 85 it's one big star way way above everyone else, I think by 88-91 it's one big star, still clearly the biggest star, but he's in an all-star team now I think there is a very clear point when Vince and co dropped all the jobbery shite you saw at Mania II and dropped, in the main, "meaningless" Muraco vs. Orndorff type matches and had every match at most of his PPVs built by feuds. This starts to happen in 88. By 90, 91, 92 they had it down to a fine art. The dividing line is not arbitrary, it's a change of booking patterns and a slight change in emphasis. They were giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2. WWF DID have meaningful stuff going on lower down the card. And quite a lot of it. The divide Loss is that from 88 onwards, they had what we in this thread have called "meaningful depth". That means they not only had Hogan on top but well-booked feuds at every tier: main event, upper midcard, IC, tag team, lower card. Jdw engaging Well, that appears to not be the case when looking at *cards*. To the degree that I wonder if you even bother to check it before writing it. :/ and this interesting piece: don't think WWF cards in the Expansion Era of 1980s went down like you seem to be thinking they did. The change game later when they actually reduced the size of the roster, the number of cards they ran, and the number of times they hit cities. Each of these things happened gradually over time, starting in roughly 1990. 2a) At this point Jerry seems to list a whole bunch of cards from 88 which look to me to reinforce jdw argument. WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988 Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification This is not an example of "quite a lot of meaningful stuff going lower on card". Not a show where they were "giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2." This is instead very much "which on non-Hogan cards tended to be IC/WTT Match + #2 Drawing Feuding Match + Everyone Else." This is IC Honkey v Savage and half of WTT match Tito v Hart and everyone else. That reinforces jdw's argument. Second argument about huge difference between 88 and pre-88 WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - July 19, 1986 (5,000) Debut at the venue Scott McGhee defeated Moondog Rex George Steele defeated Tiger Chung Lee King Harley Race defeated Lanny Poffo WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart Billy Jack Haynes defeated Bob Orton Jr. via disqualification WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Don Muraco I get that Jerry is more interested in Dibbiase being pushed than Billy Jack Haynes being pushed but there doesn't seem to me to be a ton of difference between the 86/88 card. WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - January 2, 1988 Lanny Poffo pinned Barry Horowitz at 12:45 B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated the Conquistadors at 12:23 when Blair scored the pin with a roll up after a dropkick from Brunzell Jim Duggan fought Rick Rude to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Duggan has Rude covered Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana via disqualification when Santana hit Bret with Jimmy Hart's megaphone WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the One Man Gang at 12:16 after a slam and the legdrop The Jumping Bomb Angels defeated WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri & Rockin' Robin at 13:58 when Robin was pinned after a double clothesline Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification at 6:16 after Savage rammed Honky and Jimmy Hart's heads together Again not show "giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2." Hogan match, Ic match and tag match and everyone else. WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - May 7, 1986 King Tonga defeated Steve Lombardi Tito Santana defeated Iron Mike Sharpe WWF Tag Team Champion Davey Boy Smith defeated Greg Valentine via disqualification WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated Bobby Colt (sub. for Hillbilly Jim) WWF Tag Team Champion the Dynamite Kid defeated Brutus Beefcake Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & the Junkyard Dog defeated Jimmy Jack (sub. for Terry) & Dory Funk Jr. The difference between 88 and 86? 86 has IC match vs. jobber as opposed to the Ic feud from 88. Muraco v Steamboat feud ends in Feb 86 but don't know how IN was booked, so ignoring. So 86= "Hogan match, plus 2 half tag champ matches" v 88 "Hogan match, Ic match and tag match" I don't see the big change, don't see "giving fans 4-5 (possibly even more) matches to care about rather than just 1 or 2." Don't see "meaningful stuff going on lower down the card. And quite a lot of it." These are the exaples that Jerry rolled out to prove his point, and they seem to be disproving it. Jerry then leaves the major arenas to look at nothing shows in small markets. WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - January 2, 1988 Dino Bravo pinned SD Jones Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis via disqualification Ken Patera & Billy Jack Haynes defeated Demolition via disqualification Don Muraco pinned Butch Reed The Islanders defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Ted Dibiase pinned Jake Roberts Hercules fought Koko B. Ware to a draw Bam Bam Bigelow pinned King Kong Bundy WWF @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - January 3, 1988 Koko B. Ware vs. Steve Lombardi Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. the Islanders The Jumping Bomb Angels vs. WWF Women's Tag Team Champions Judy Martin & Leilani Kai Jake Roberts vs. Ted Dibiase WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - May 29, 1986 Pedro Morales vs. Jimmy Jack Funk Nikolai Volkoff vs. ? (sub. for Uncle Elmer) Cpl. Kirchner vs. the Iron Sheik Dory Funk Jr. vs. the Junkyard Dog (w/ the Haiti Kid) WWF IC Champion Randy Savage vs. George Steele Also included B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell WWF @ Poughkeepsie, NY - Mid-Hudson Civic Center - May 5, 1987 Tom Magee vs. Terry Gibbs Paul Roma & Jim Powers vs. the Shadows WWF Women's Champion The Fabulous Moolah vs. Velvet McIntyre Hillbilly Jim vs. Sika Billy Jack Haynes vs. Hercules (chain match) Again doesn't seem to be any major difference between shows in this type of venue in 86 and 88 4) Jerry: haven't seen a single person yet even admit there was a change in the booking from the 84-6 period, let alone that WWF had meaningful feuds up and down the card in 88-92. Sandy Scott leaves in 86. Argument that you sometimes hear is that Sandy Scott is credited with expanding the depth of WWF shows. He's credited with Steamboat v Savage and hot workrate midcard IC title stuff, credited for some of the Andre angles, most of the hot non-world title angles, and credited for stuff like the Orton-Piper relationship (traditionally you would have Piper built up to challenge on top, then after he lost would be pushed back down the card and then leave...followed by Orton being pushed up, losing then getting pushed back down before leaving---relationship between two allows both to hang out and have stuff to do longer). So yes there is a change. As to argument that WWF had meaningful feuds up and down the card in 88-92 period , it would help the argument if someone could point to some. Walk through some of them. No-one is asking for a list of all of the non Hogan feuds between 88-92. But it would be nice to look at a couple of cards and be able to point to more than one or two other feuds taking place at time. Examples are useful. 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thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think I just listed a card where five, originally six feuds were all played out (and that card had an extra Hogan match, vs. Slaughter, that wasn't announced). But since you asked here's a few with more than 2 feuds on them. WWF @ Bristol, TN - Viking Hall - January 1, 1989 Scott Casey defeated Conquistador #2 Jim Powers defeated the Brooklyn Brawler Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis The Red Rooster defeated the Blue Blazer Brutus Beefcake defeated Ron Bass Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty Jim Duggan defeated Dino Bravo in a flag match Andre the Giant defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification Definitely a C show here and yet 3 featured feuds on TV (I think Rockers-Busters had had a pull apart brawl on Superstars by this point, but I would call more that a great match than a feud) WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - January 14, 1989 (matinee) (6,018) Televised on the PRISM Network - featured Dick Graham on commentary: Tim Horner pinned Jose Estrada at 9:36 after modifying a sleeper into a sunset flip The Bushwhackers defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhuvov at 9:47 when Butch pinned Zhukov with the double gutbuster Akeem pinned the Blue Blazer with the splash at 8:03 Hercules defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) via disqualification at 8:02 when Virgil interfered and attacked Herc with his chain as he had the backbreaker applied on Dibiase; after the bout, Hercules cleared both men from the ring Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) at 5:55 in a flag match after Martin accidentally hit Bravo with the Quebec flag; after the match, the American National Anthem played as the US flag was raised above the ring The Powers of Pain (w/ Mr. Fuji) fought WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition to a double disqualification at 6:45 when Fuji attacked Smash with his cane, with Ax grabbing it away and attacking the challengers with it, breaking it in half Greg Valentine pinned Ron Garvin at 12:10 when the momentum of a crossbody off the top by Garvin put Valentine on top for the win Paul Roma pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 3:48 with a missile dropkick WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Bad News Brown at 5:36 after reversing a bodyslam attempt into an inside cradle Again 4 feuds featured on TV regularly and no Hogan to be found WWF @ Glens Falls, NY - Civic Center - January 6, 1990 Tugboat defeated Barry Horowitz Mr. Perfect defeated Jimmy Snuka WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition The Honkytonk Man defeated the Red Rooster Bret Hart defeated Bad News Brown Dusty Rhodes defeated the Big Bossman Randy Savage defeated Jim Duggan 3 feuds featured on TV all the time (And Duggan begins the WWF tradition of jobbing in his hometown. Other than Tugboat-Horowitz, no squashes to be found). I remember WWF magazine trying to hype Honky-Rooster as a feud but I'm not that generous) WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - January 13, 1990 (announced at 9,200) Earthquake defeated Paul Roma Koko B. Ware pinned Al Perez Bret Hart pinned Iron Mike Sharpe (sub. for Bad News Brown) Jimmy Snuka pinned the Honkytonk Man WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via count-out after Andre threw Smash out of the ring Randy Savage pinned Jim Duggan with his feet on the ropes; there were two referees for the bout WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Earthquake) with the splash (was Honky-Snuka done at this point? If not then here's 4 feuds all over TV) WWF @ Albuquerque, NM - January 15, 1990 (4,807) Earthquake pinned Koko B. Ware Bad News Brown pinned the Red Rooster Tito Santana defeated Bob Bradley (sub. for Barry Windham) WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Dino Bravo Brutus Beefcake defeated Rick Martel via disqualification WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku defeated Demolition via disqualification Roddy Piper defeated Rick Rude in a lumberjack match WWF @ West Palm Beach, FL - Auditorium - April 29, 1991 (5,500; sell out) The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Col. Mustafa defeated Johnny Ace via submission Rick Anderson defeated Randy Hunter Sgt. Slaughter defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification when Hogan hit Slaughter with a steel chair that Slaughter brought in the ring moments earlier Marty Jannetty pinned Kato IRS pinned Tugboat Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out Hogan's here but so are 3 other all over TV programs WWF @ Miami, FL - Arena - May 3, 1991 (5,000) Bret Hart pinned the Barbarian Col. Mustafa pinned Koko B. Ware The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil Ricky Steamboat pinned Haku WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect battled Davey Boy Smith to a draw The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out The Ultimate Warrior defeated the Undertaker via disqualification 5 major feuds on TV and no Hogan to be found WWF @ Oakland, CA - Coliseum - January 3, 1992 (8,000) Skinner defeated Chris Walker Chris Chavis defeated Kato The Warlord defeated Greg Valentine Ted Dibiase defeated Tito Santana via count-out The Undertaker defeated Jim Duggan Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated the Beverly Brothers when Owen pinned Blake WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated the Mountie Randy Savage defeated Jake Roberts Only 2 other major issues here though NF vs BB's and Tito-Dibiase did have TV issues that caused them WWF @ Fairbanks, AK - January 11, 1992 Chris Chavis defeated Kato Owen Hart (sub. for Davey Boy Smith) defeated the Berzerker Owen Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated the Beverly Brothers The Undertaker defeated Sid Justice via disqualification Kerry Von Erich defeated Skinner IRS defeated the Big Bossman by using the ropes for leverage Randy Savage pinned Jake Roberts with the flying elbow drop 4 TV feuds here in a fairly small market WWF @ Anchorage, AK - Sullivan Arena - June 13, 1992 Tito Santana defeated Barry Horowitz Nailz pinned Virgil Rick Martel defeated Tatanka via count-out Davey Boy Smith defeated Repo Man Earthquake defeated WWF Tag Team Champion IRS The Undertaker defeated the Berzerker WWF World Champion Randy Savage defeated Ric Flair via disqualification 5 programs here (No idea why I picked two Anchorage cards in a row, these selections were all random) WWF @ Oakland, CA - Coliseum - June 13, 1992 (6,500) Crush defeated Skinner Kerry Von Erich defeated Kato The Mountie defeated Sgt. Slaughter via count-out The Legion of Doom defeated the Beverly Brothers The Nasty Boys defeated Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware WWF IC Champion Bret Hart defeated Shawn Michaels The Ultimate Warrior defeated Papa Shango via disqualification 4 more issues here. So nine feuds in two shows (which was all that was run after the summer of 90 anyway IIRC) As to this diversity being what caused the WWF to fail? You are just making a joke right. I would hardly consider Piper, Savage, Andre, Steamboat, Don Muraco, Bulldogs, Harts, Valentine, Santana, Jake etc the scrubs compared to Hogan's Michael Jordan you seem to think they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Do you really want me to list all the legion non-Hogan related feuds that took place from 88 to 92? It would make an impressive visual because there are a lot of them. As could we for JCP/WCW for a massive five year period of time like "1988-92". The specific example I gave was during a one month period of the 1986 Great American Bash for JCP where there were probably close to 20 different feuds / storylines going on those cards in a single month in JCP. I also said that we could probably do the same thing for the WWF in say 1988 (and 1986 for that matter) - pick a single month, look at all the cards (and eyeball the TV leading into the cards) and find 20 or so storylines. The contrast that some of us are trying to tell you is that when you look at specific cards, you'll also find the the WWF in that period wasn't loaded with storylines "up and down the cards". Those storylines are spread across *several* crews that were working different cards on a given night. Which meant that each cards ended up only having 2-5 storylines, while the rest of the cards were "throw aways" or "throw togethers" that were just filling out the card. I gave multiple examples of this, across several years. Really though, is it worth the effort of listing all those fueds? Again, you're not grasping what we wrote. In a battle of "five years worth of fueds" or storylines, we're going to end up with hundreds for each promotion. It becomes a meaningless sample because both have a large number. They also don't tie into "cards", which was your original point and our original argument back. That Hogan was feuding with Henning in 1990 or Sid in 1992 really isn't relevant to whether the WWF in 1988 had storylines up and down cards in 1988. In fact, it's only relevant when looking at the cards where those feuds took place, and then analyzing the rest of the card to see what was on them. Will anything happen other than you quoting random or handpicked LA cards back at me and sticking to a rather dogmatic line that WWF was Hogan and nothing else and that's the way things were from 84 to 92? So how much did you fuck up on this comment? #1 - I didn't pick "random" Los Angeles cards. The initial example I gave was JCP's first true expansion card in Los Angeles. Specifically a card where they came in and tried to make a mark. The example I followed with was the post Starcade 1986 card, which was their next card of note in the city and reflected what the promotion was doing coming off of Starcade. I selected Los Angeles because (i) I live in it and went to those cards and thus can comp them with what I was seeing out of the WWF at the time, and (ii) Los Angeles wasn't one of JCP's old core Mid Atlantic cities and instead an Expansion one, so it makes for a good comp of what they were doing opposite of WWF Expansion. On the second batch of cards, I selected Los Angeles 1988 JCP vs WWF to open the year. They each ran shows in the market in January and February and March. It's a good direct comp. I selected 1988 because you moved the year forward from 1985-86 to 1988 after several of us punted you around about 1986. You tossed out 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991... so I thought, fuck it... let's take a look at the first three months of the new year that you selected to be the new turning point in the WWF having storylines up and down the cards. Perhaps you'd rather compare WWF MSG vs JCP Charlotte for a similar period. I don't think we'd find a heck of a lot different between the two companies in Jan-Mar 1988. #2 - I never said that the only storyline on a WWF card was Hogan Go back and read what I wrote. I talked about each specific match on those three cards, whether they had a storyline, whether they didn't. I even took the time to research something like Jack-Rude to make sure I had the right starting point for the "storyline" as opposed to earlier matches where they were just thrown together. I've yet to see you go to the level of detail that we on the other side have to defend your point. You're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it will stick. We keep coming in here, cleaning up the wall, pointing things out to you... only to have more shit thrown on the wall. Talk about dogmatic. I don't want to take an hour of my time typing out dozens of feuds only for them to be ignored. Jerry: *you* are the one who is ignoring what others are saying in this thread. You have this vision of the WWF in the 80s and JCP in the 80s that is detached from reality. No one here would deny that the WWF had a shitload of storylines in the 80s. All one needs to do is look at Mania III to see a load of storylines climaxing on one massive cards. Your detachment is to think that all WWF cards are like that, when in reality large chunks of a WWF card in the 80s would be curtain jerkers, throw away matches, and matches just thrown together rather than ones tied to an existing storyline. Hell... here's as good of an example as I can give you. That famous Savage vs Jake match on SNME? It was a thrown together match. There really was no storyline behind it, they simply slapped the two heels opposite each other, promo'd it up on the show (good promos, mind you), and then worked a damn fine match. But if you look at Savage's feuds in the period (Tito, Animal, Steamboat), Jake wasn't one of them heading into the match... and they didn't really work a storyline between the two after the match other than random matches. Point: the WWF would even throw together stuff on their biggest TV show. Some of it worked out pretty damn well. The point is that -- using the very terms set out by this thread -- WWF DID have meaningful stuff going on lower down the card. And quite a lot of it. Okay... so do I have to roll out MSG? WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 25, 1988 (19,750; sell out) Televised on the MSG Network - included Vince McMahon doing guest commentary, substituting for Gorilla Monsoon who had suffered a mild heart attack, alongside Bobby Heenan and Lord Alfred Hayes (McMahon's return to MSG commentary after an absense of 5 years); during the intermission, McMahon conducted several interviews at ringside with the Islanders & Bobby Heenan, Jim Duggan, Butch Reed & Slick: Prime Time Wrestling - 2/11/88: Scott Casey pinned Jose Estrada with a shoulder breaker at 10:06 Prime Time Wrestling - 3/14/88: Sam Houston pinned Danny Davis with a small package at 8:08 Butch Reed (w/ Slick) pinned the Junkyard Dog with a roll up and holding the tights for leverage at 5:26 after JYD chased Slick into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 2/11/88: Omar Atlas pinned Dusty Wolfe at 7:29 with a reverse roll up The One Man Gang (w/ Slick) pinned Don Muraco (w/ Superstar Billy Graham) after Butch Reed interfered and hit Muraco with Slick's cane as the referee was busy breaking up a confrontation between Graham and Slick; after the bout, Muraco was thrown to the floor as Graham was triple teamed in the ring, with OMG hitting one splash and preparing to hit a second until Muraco made the save and cleared the ring WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & Bam Bam Bigelow (w/ Oliver Humperdink) defeated Ted Dibiase & Virgil (w/ Andre the Giant) when Bigelow pinned Virgil with a splash at 9:26 after Hogan hit the legdrop; after the bout, Hogan and Bigelow cleared the ring before the champion taunted Andre with the world title belt; Andre had to be held back by Dibiase and Virgil during the confrontation (Hulkamania 3) Paul Roma & Jim Powers defeated Steve Lombardi & Barry Horowitz when Powers pinned Lombardi after a powerslam at 13:33; early in the bout, Heenan left the broadcast table, claiming King Harley Race wanted to speak with him in the dressing room Jim Duggan pinned King Harley Race (w/ Bobby Heenan) at 10:50 by reversing a crossbody off the top ('Hacksaw' Jim Duggan) Prime Time Wrestling - 2/19/88: Ron Bass pinned Hillbilly Jim at 5:32 with the Pedigree The Islanders defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid via disqualification at 15:35 when the Bulldogs used a leash on their opponents that was originally brought to the ring by Bobby Heenan The first two matches are prelim throw aways. Reed-Dog wasn't a feud: Reed was feuding with Muraco, as seen in the next match. It was Reed's feud after the Reed-Superstar feud ate up most of the second half of Reed's 1987. In fact, Muraco "stepped in" for Graham in the feud. So Reed-Dog was a throw together. Atlas-Wolfe is a throw away. Muraco-OMG wasn't a storyline, other than Slick managing both OMG and Reed. The match was simply there for Reed to run in. The Hogan match is the Hogan match. Roma & Powers were facing jobbers: there was no storyline. Duggan-Race was a storyline. Bass vs Hillbilly is a random match. They had several, but have fun looking at Jim's matches in 1987 and 1988 to see what a high percentage of them are utterly random. Islanders vs Bulldogs had a storyline. So 3 matches had actually storylines, while a 4th had a tangental one. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 22, 1988 (less than 10,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary; this was the first MSG card in which there were mats on the floor surrounding the ring: Prime Time Wrestling - 3/14/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated King Harley Race & Iron Mike Sharpe (sub. for Hercules) at 9:26 when Raymond pinned Sharpe after the Rougeau Bomb from Jacques Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: George Steele pinned Sika at 2:49 after Sika hit himself with a chair that bounced off the apron, moments after Steele threw three chairs into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: Demolition Ax (w/ Mr. Fuji) pinned Ken Patera at 7:27 after Demolition Smash came ringside and distracted Patera as the full nelson was applied; after the bout, Patera was double teamed until the Junkyard Dog made the save Prime Time Wrestling - 2/29/88: The Junkyard Dog (sub. for Billy Jack Haynes) (w/ Ken Patera) pinned Demolition Smash (w/ Mr. Fuji & Demolition Ax) at 3:44 by hitting him with his steel chain after Patera tripped Smash and attacked Ax, distracting the referee Prime Time Wrestling - 3/7/88: Jake Roberts fought Dino Bravo (w/ Frenchy Martin) to a 20-minute draw at 19:23 Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated Bam Bam Bigelow via count-out at 11:04 after sending Bigelow into the steel ring post as Bigelow was chasing Virgil on the floor Prime Time Wrestling - 3/7/88: Jim Duggan fought Ron Bass to a double count-out at 15:16 when Duggan chased Bass backstage Don Muraco & the Ultimate Warrior defeated Butch Reed (w/ Slick) & King Kong Bundy (sub. for the One Man Gang) when Warrior pinned Bundy with a crossbody at 14:48, with Bundy falling backwards over Muraco who was on all fours; during the match, Slick briefly joined the commentary team of Gorilla Monsoon and Lord Alfred Hayes at ringside Opener is a throw togerther. Animal was a throw away. Demolition did have a low level storyline and feud with Patera & Billy Jack. So the two Demo matches, with JYD subbing in, had storyline. Jake-Bravo is kind of strange because I see one reference around this time to a Canadian version of TV where Jake talked about Bravo's bench press record. But... the two didn't have other matches with each other prior to Jake-Rude starting up, and of course this matches wasn't in Canada. This seems much more like a thrown together match, prior to a potential feud and storyline that never took off. Instead, Jake went to Rude. Ted-Bigelow was a side plot of the Hogan vs Ted & Andre storyline, with Bigelow being Hogan's back up. Storyline. Bass-Duggan was a throw together. They had a match the night before, and several after, but there was no feud or storyline that I see. Bass was heading to a storyline with JYD. Muraco-Reed storyline in the tag. So again, there were three storylines on this card, with one of them split into two Demolition matches. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - April 25, 1988 (17,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Gorilla Monsoon & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary; the card was to have included Ricky Steamboat vs. Greg Valentine but the match was cancelled due to Steamboat leaving the WWF: Prime Time Wrestling - 5/9/88: Brady Boone pinned Steve Lombardi with a German suplex at 14:57 Dino Bravo defeated Ken Patera via forfeit after Bravo attacked Patera during an arm-wrestling contest as Bravo was about to lose; as a result of the attack, Patera was unable to compete; Patera had already won the arm-wrestling contest once, but Bravo said Patera had cheated and so it was restarted Bret Hart fought Bad News Brown to a 20-minute time-limit draw The One Man Gang defeated Bam Bam Bigelow via disqualification at 9:12 after Bigelow rammed OMG's head into the top turnbuckle for longer than the referee's 5-count Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) via count-out at the 12-minute mark after Virgil pushed the champion from the top rope to the floor; after the bout, Savage chased Dibiase and Virgil away with a chair Prime Time Wrestling - 5/2/88: Barry Horowitz pinned Jose Luis Rivera at 10:39 with a Russian leg sweep Prime Time Wrestling - 5/9/88: WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri pinned Desiree Peterson at 7:29 by reversing Peterson’s Irish whip and throwing her down by the hair (The Women of the WWF) The Ultimate Warrior pinned Hercules with the gorilla press slam at 12:48 (The Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior FYE version) WWF Tag Team Champions Demolition (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Rick Martel & Tito Santana at 7:22 when Smash pinned Santana after Fuji interfered and hit the challenger with his cane as Santana prepared to put Smash in the figure-4 Opener was a throw away. Bravo-Patera were working a storyline, essentially Patera's post-Demolition feud. Plenty of matches, some TV stufff. Bret-Bad News played off the finish of the Battle Royal at Mania. OMG and Bigelow were opposite each other a fair amount in the Muraco-Reed feud as the partners in tag matches. They also faced each other in the Mania title tourney. They faced each other into June. I don't recall the storyline too vividly, but clearly it was a feud and there was something there. Ted-Savage was a major feud. Barry-Rivera was a jobber matches. Sherri-Peterson was a throw away. Demo vs Strikeforce was coming off Mania, so there was storyline there. 5 matches had storylines. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 27, 1988 (16,000) Televised on the MSG Network - included Roger Kent & Superstar Billy Graham on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: The Conquistador pinned SD Jones at 9:13 when the momentum of a flying crossbody put the Conquistador on top Greg Valentine defeated George Steele via disqualification when Steele brought the timekeeper's hammer into the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Jim Powers & Paul Roma at 14:26 when Jacques pinned Powers with a small package after Raymond reversed Powers' small package behind the referee's back Prime Time Wrestling - 6/20/88: Brutus Beefcake fought the One Man Gang to a double count-out at 10:20 when both men fell over the top to the floor as Beefcake was on Gang's back with the sleeper applied The Islanders & Bobby Heenan defeated Koko B. Ware, Davey Boy Smith, & the Dynamite Kid when Heenan pinned Koko after hitting him with brass knuckles Prime Time Wrestling - 6/6/88: Iron Mike Sharpe pinned Jerry Allen at 6:26 with an elbow drop WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) via disqualification at 11:55 when Virgil interfered and prevented the pinfall after the challenger hit an unprotected turnbuckle head-first; after the match, Savage was double teamed and thrown to the floor but later cleared the ring with his title belt (Macho Madness) Prime Time Wrestling - 5/30/88: Jim Neidhart pinned Don Muraco (w/ Superstar Billy Graham) after reversing a roll up attempt by sitting on Muraco's chest; Lord Alfred Hayes did guest commentary for the match, subbing for Graham Dino Bravo pinned Ken Patera with the side suplex after Patera became distracted by Frenchy Martin on the ring apron (Best of the WWF Vol. 17) Prime Time Wrestling - 8/8/88: The Junkyard Dog pinned Ron Bass at 8:15 by reversing a powerslam attempt into a cover Opener was a jobber match. Second match... the two had a fair number of matches, coming off a Superstars match... kinda... sorta storyline, but not much there. Rougeaus vs Powers & Roma was thrown together, like pretty much everything Powers and Roma did that year. Beefcake vs OMG was a throw together: Brutus was feuding with HTM at the time. Islanders vs Bulldogs was a feud. Sharpe vs Allen was a jobber matches. Savage vs Ted was a feud. Muraco vs Neidhart was thrown together. Bravo-Patera was a feud. JYD vs Bass was a feud. 3 matches with storylines... 4 if your stretch it to Valentine-Steel. WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - June 25, 1988 (18,300) Televised on the MSG Network - included Roger Kent, Superstar Billy Graham, & Lord Alfred Hayes on commentary: Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: The Big Bossman pinned Scott Casey at 7:45 with the sidewalk slam; after the bout, Bossman handcuffed Casey to the ropes and beat him with the nightstick Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated the Conquistadors at 11:35 when Raymond scored the pin following a double team move from the top Prime Time Wrestling - 7/11/88: Don Muraco defeated Danny Davis via disqualification when Greg Valentine interfered as Muraco had Davis up for the tombstone; after the bout, Valentine confronted Superstar Billy Graham at the announce table, pushed him, and kicked him in the leg Prime Time Wrestling - 7/25/88: Andre the Giant pinned Bam Bam Bigelow with an elbow drop at 9:09 after kicking Bigelow in the face as he charged the corner; prior to the match, Andre was escorted to the ring by Bobby Heenan; after the bout, Jim Duggan made the save with his 2x4 after Andre began choking Bigelow with the strap from his tights Prime Time Wrestling - 7/4/88: George Steele defeated Greg Valentine via count-out in a No DQ match at 6:35 after Steele chased Valentine around the ring after Valentine stole Steele's Mine doll Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Bad News Brown defeated Jim Neidhart via count-out at 16:23 after Neidhart sustained the Ghetto Blaster, fell to the floor, and could not return to the ring before the 10-count; after the bout, Neidhart sent Bad News out of the ring Prime Time Wrestling - 6/27/88: Jim Duggan pinned the One Man Gang at 9:49 with the running clothesline after the Gang missed a splash in the corner The Ultimate Warrior defeated Bobby Heenan via submission with a sleeper in a Weasel Suit match at 5:30; after the bout, Warrior stuffed the unconscious Heenan in the suit (The Greatest Wrestling Stars of the 80s) WWF World Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) in a steel cage match at 12:20 by escaping over the cage after ramming the challenger's head into that of an interfering Virgil at the top of the cage; moments prior to the finish, a fan climbed onto the cage but was quickly pulled down (Macho Madness, Best of the WWF Vol. 18, WWF Wrestling's Greatest Steel Cage Matches Ever!, Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection) The opener had no storyline, the second was a throw away, and the third only really had storyline when Valentine ran in since they had a feud just starting. Andre-Bigelow has storyline. Steele-Valentine rematch, kinda-storta extension of a storyline. News-Neidhart ties into Bret-News, and they had about a month's worth of matches. Another kinda-sorta. Duggan-OMG is random as Duggan was feuding with Andre at the time. Warrior-Heenan Weasel Suit had storyline. Ted-Savage had storyline. Three clear storylines, one side tangent (Anvil-News playing off Bret-News), and one hard to define. For a WWF card, this has more than most... as long as we stretch a bit. Do I need to keep going, or is half a year of MSG in 1988 enough to get across that it wasn't just the WWF in Los Angeles? For JCP, that stuff matters, it's meant to show how well booked the promotion was, how they did more with less etc. For WWF, it's just Hogan pre-show. That's the argument I'm getting from you guys now and it's not adding up. One rule for JCP, another for WWF. No. We keep pointing out to you that You Are Wrong that the WWF had storylines all through their cards. They didn't. They had a lot of matches that was just shit thrown together. You've yet to take any card that we've listed, or offer up counter examples, that show that standard 8-10 match WWF cards in 1985-88 had 67% to 75% storylines. Or that they did it to a much greater degree than JCP. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 I probably should take the hint that this is for Jerry only and no one's allowed to agree with him (or is ignored if they do) (Partly, I don't think WWF cards were loaded with stories but neither do I think the average card in this era (88-92) had 2 or 3 matches that had a story on average which was what I thought others were saying. But to pick a random card I selected earlier. WWF @ Miami, FL - Arena - May 3, 1991 (5,000) Bret Hart pinned the Barbarian Col. Mustafa pinned Koko B. Ware The Big Bossman pinned the Mountie Ted Dibiase pinned Virgil Ricky Steamboat pinned Haku WWF IC Champion Mr. Perfect battled Davey Boy Smith to a draw The Legion of Doom defeated WWF Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys via count-out The Ultimate Warrior defeated the Undertaker via disqualification 75% of these matches had definite TV stories behind them So there you go. Picked completely at random since I certainly don't have all the WWF results from 88-92 memorized. I am hearing different people saying different people are saying different things though. Exactly what percentage of matches in the average WWF house show between 88-92 meant something, for a title/had tv stories and feuds behind them. I would place the number at between 50-65 percent. I don't recall Jerry claiming 75% but if am wrong I apologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 The point of my 9-day demonstration wasn't to show how there were 4-5 stories on every single card, but how the promotion as a whole had quite a lot of hot feuds, hot stars and so on -- who weren't Hogan -- and how they used them over a 9-day stretch. We talk on this board sometimes about macro and micro, more or less everything jdw and tomk said up there have zeroed in with laser-like precision on individual cards. Fuck the fact that WWF put out FIVE different cards with different headliners on the same day in one of my examples. Fuck the fact they were running Hogan vs. Rude in some towns, Ted vs. Jake in others, Savage vs. Honky in others, Strike vs. Hart Foundations in others and variations of guys like Ultimate Warrior or Demolition on top in yet more others -- let's ignore all that and zero in on the fact that SD Jones is curtain jerking. Let's ignore all that because JCP put on varations of the same strong card night after night. Tunnel vision can do that sort of thing. But I've been told in no uncertain terms that I'm just wrong, so fair enough if it helps you sleep better, I'm just wrong. I have resisted the temptation to go through PPV cards from the era I'm talking about tediously listing all of the various feuds that blew off on those cards, because I thought it just didn't need to be done. That everyone is very very well versed in what those feuds are and who took part in them. Maybe I was mistaken, or maybe people are willfully overlooking some of the most famous feuds in wrestling history for the sake of winning an argument. Either way, I give up. If the lady's not for turning, she's not for turning. EDIT: One more thing I'll say is that there seems to be some semantic confusion about what I mean by "up and down the card". What I had in mind was a Wrestlemania card with something like 8 or 9 out of 14 matches having feuds connected with them. "Up and down the card" meaning feuds at all levels of the roster at any one time. It seems to have been taken for "up and down a given card on a given night", which is obviously bonkers. Why? Because guys need time to be built. They need wins to build momentum. So you can't have big feud-y matches up and down every single card. If JCP did, I think that's a weakness for them, it means they didn't have enough guys to go around so they kept having to run feuds into the ground through endless repetition -- short term booking, which can risk burn out fast. Your original (i) "storylines up and down the cards" does not mean the same thing as (ii) drawing feuds. You have this vision of the WWF in the 80s and JCP in the 80s that is detached from reality. No one here would deny that the WWF had a shitload of storylines in the 80s. All one needs to do is look at Mania III to see a load of storylines climaxing on one massive cards. Your detachment is to think that all WWF cards are like that Both of these quotations demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding between us here. All through this thread, I've been speaking on the level of roster and promotion. You've been speaking on the level of individual cards. "Up and down the card" to me was talking about throughout the roster and the promotion; "the card" referring mainly to different tiers of workers based on their pushes (main event, upper card, and so on). You took it to mean "up and down every card they ran". Once you see that misunderstanding, I don't think some of points you've made are a million miles away from some of the points I've made. Finally, my aim was not to prove number of storylines per card, it was to prove "meaningful depth" and that by 88, WWF had it as much as JCP had it (and then some) -- "meaning" being not just feuds but guys with storylines or pushes that the fans care about in some way (a la Jake or Ted). It was, as you've said, stretched across multiple cards and there was *necessary* jobber and JTTS filler on those cards, but the meaning and the depth were both still there. That's the point I was trying to prove, which I stated. And then stated again. And again. You seem to have me pegged as trying to prove a different point, which suggests you're having a different argument from the one I'm having. This really is my last word on this though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Okay... Jerry offered up examples later in the thread. Let's take a look at them... Here's the story John's LA cards aren't telling you: WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988 Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification No Hogan. DiBiase being pushed. Honkey during long IC run drawing heat in meaningful feud with recently turned Savage. Think Strike Force / Hart Foundation was a feud. I see where we have a disconnect. Jerry: "WWF had storylines up and down their cards in 1986... I mean 1988." Others: "We don't think that's the case, relative to JCP. They had some storylines, but they also had a lot of throw away and thrown together matches. Similar to JCP." Jerry: "A-Ha! I'll prove they do! Here's a card where 3 of the 9 matches have storylines!" Others: "So... dude... don't you grasp that proves our point?" Looking closer: WWF @ Pontiac, MI - Silverdome - January 1, 1988 Dino Bravo defeated SD Jones Thrown together. Danny Davis defeated Sam Houston via count-out Jobber match. Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated the Conquistadors Thrown together meaningless match. WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri defeated Rockin Robin This had some storyline if anyone gave a shit about it. Trust me: they didn't. WWF Tag Team Champion Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart Tied into the Harts vs Strikeforce feud. Storyline. The One Man Gang defeated George Steele via disqualification Steele was a largely random wrestler at this point. Bam Bam Bigeow pinned King Kong Bundy Bigelow was tied into the Hogan vs Ted feud at the time. Bundy was sucked into it as well, while Bigelow-Bundy had a number of singles matches. Bit of a storyline here. Ted Dibiase pinned Jim Duggan There were a lot of Ted-Duggan matches in 1987-88, be we all know that Duggan was knee deep in the feud with Race at the time, while Ted was in the Hogan vs Ted & Andre feud. Randy Savage defeated WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man via disqualification This was a feud. So 4 out of 9 matches, which is being generous and adding the Bigelow-Bundy to the three you claimed. Jerry... are you serious in offering that up as a counter to what we're saying? WWF @ Indianapolis, IN - Market Square Arena - January 2, 1988 Lanny Poffo pinned Barry Horowitz at 12:45 Jobber match. B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated the Conquistadors at 12:23 when Blair scored the pin with a roll up after a dropkick from Brunzell The Conquistadors were JTTS. This is a throw away. Jim Duggan fought Rick Rude to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Duggan has Rude covered Duggan feuding with Race. Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana via disqualification when Santana hit Bret with Jimmy Hart's megaphone Storyline to this one. WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the One Man Gang at 12:16 after a slam and the legdrop It's Hogan, there's a storyline, though it's a second tier Hogan feud to the Hogan-Ted one at the time. This is similar to what I talked about with Flair having primary feuds and secondary ones. The Jumping Bomb Angels defeated WWF Women's Champion Sensational Sherri & Rockin' Robin at 13:58 when Robin was pinned after a double clothesline Thrown together. Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 Feud of former partners. WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man defeated Randy Savage via disqualification at 6:16 after Savage rammed Honky and Jimmy Hart's heads together Feud. 4 of 8. That's a lot for a WWF card. WWF @ Worcester, MA - Centrum - January 2, 1988 Dino Bravo pinned SD Jones Throw away. Sam Houston defeated Danny Davis via disqualification Jobber match. Ken Patera & Billy Jack Haynes defeated Demolition via disqualification Feud. Don Muraco pinned Butch Reed Feud. The Islanders defeated Paul Roma & Jim Powers Thrown together as Roma & Powers were the face JJTS team. Ted Dibiase pinned Jake Roberts Thrown together. Hercules fought Koko B. Ware to a draw Thrown together match. Bam Bam Bigelow pinned King Kong Bundy Storyline-ish. 3 out of 8. Jerry... again, are you being serious here? JCP cards will have at least 3 matches on the card that have storyline. Usually more. Same night, different town. Bam Bam and DiBiase both being pushed here. Ted/Jake was a match with two characters people cared about who were both over. No Hogan. Ah... I see what you're doing. You've shape shifting the argument into Push and being Over. I mean... for fuck's sake. I'm less than 2 weeks in and it's already clear to see that what you are saying isn't true. No, it's clear that: * you were wrong on your original point * you were called on it with facts * you wouldn't cop to being wrong * you restated you're wrong position * you were called on it again with more facts * you've now pulled a new point out of your ass, pretending it's the one you started with This will likely end with: * folks not letting you pretend this was your original point * you getting all mad and wander away from the thread It will not end with: * you admitting that your original point was wrong * you thanking the posters of this thread for educating you about JCP and WWF cards in this period and that you learned something new in the thead John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Okay so the argument is which company had the cards that let's say in 88-92 had more meaningful matches and feuds on them. Yeah JCP did. Clearly. I wouldn't say it's a massacre but they have the lead probably 2-3 more meaningful matches per night per show. BUT they ran a heck of a lot less shows per night. So this is a completely unfair argument. Take ALL the WWF cards in a given day and All the JCP cards in a given day and I bet the WWF has a slight lead more often than not in total number of meaningful matches. Best way to compare is PPV"s where each card showcases the entire roster (Or should but Dusty was strange enough to book house shows the same day as PPV's). Wanna do that and see what happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Looking at those results I think it's shockingly obvious that we we are saying is true, to the point where it's kind of scary that you a drawing different conclusions. I'm going to say this as nicely as I can in concurrence... It nakedly obvious from what he posted that what we were saying from the start is true, and it fucking boggles the mind how someone can't see that. No one who was watching in that era regarded Jumping Bomb Angles v. Martin/Kai as a money drawing feud. I literally have never heard anyone advance that argument until now. You are seriously arguing on the basis of "Young Stallions gaining momentum" and Dibiase v. opponents he never had memorable feuds with? Exactly. No one is arguing that Savage couldn't draw and Dibiase couldn't draw. People are arguing that Hogan was the engine Hell, I'm not even arguing the second one in this thread: we covered that ground in Vince & Hogan vs The World, getting across what Hogan helped Vince do. This is what I think most of us are jaw dropped about from Jerry: and more importantly that JCP was booked with more matches on the average show that would have feuds/storylines behind them that would give them drawing impact. There is less than nothing in the above that points to a different conclusion. Yep. That doesn't mean JCP actually drew more than the WWF, or there we're arguing it did. We're not. Just that an average JCP card didn't have less storyline/feud matches than the WWF... and often had more. It's just how Dusty booked, and also a function of how the WWF was running a billion shows and how the guys were slapped together to fill out cards. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 Feud of former partners. I watched a ton of Valentine for some project or other about five years back and for whatever this is worth, I don't think this was a feud in 88. The New Dream Team broke up after Survivor Series, which would be Thanksgiving 87. So my sense is that they already ran Dream Team break up/ Valentine v Beefcake, New Dream Team forms, that one feuds with Beefcake and then moves on to other feuds and then that one breaks up, Johnny V leaves the WWF and both Valentine and Bravo are with new managers. My sense is that by January of 88, Beefcake v Valentine is less a feud and more something like JYD v Valentine in late 86: two guys who know spots to work against each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Tomk I think you're right but I would say at this point both guys were treading water and it's the closest thing Beefcake has to a feud till Honky and Valentine has until Graham/Muraco. Heck I saw these two at an indy show about six years ago and they cut promos blaming each other for the Dream Team's breakup so maybe this feud is STILL going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Also, let me quote something back at you that I said earlier: This starts to happen in 88. By 90, 91, 92 they had it down to a fine art. I'm going to quote the first bit again in case anyone missed it. This starts to happen in 88. Looking at January 88 is, by my own argument, to look at a time when they were transitioning to a different way of booking (and there IS more meaning to the depth there than in 86). Am I going to be made to do the same thing in the cards leading up to and including Wrestlemania VI? Nothing changed in the booking in January 1988. It's the same as it was in 1987 and 1986. Things didn't change until points starting in 1990 on into 1992/93. The change came when they cut back the crews, and the talent, and over time they cut back even further while also cutting back the number of shows they ran in markets (they ran 5 MSG shows in 1992 and 6 in 1993). It was a gradual change, rather than suddenly waking up one day and seeing 6 of 8 matches at MSG having storylines. Do I need to spell out all of the drawing feuds they ran in 89 and 90 and 91? Seems like it's going that way. Your original (i) "storylines up and down the cards" does not mean the same thing as (ii) drawing feuds. Can you grasp how far you've shifted your claim between (i) and (ii) during the course? That's not even taking into considering that Drawing Feuds isn't even (ii) of your shape shifting? Was Valentine v. Beefcake a hot feud on par with something involving Luger or the Horseman or Sting or The Roadies or any other non-Flair entity of that era? I damn sure don't recall that and I'm a guy looking to give Greg all the credit for everything of note in his career right now. I don't even recall it being Paul Jones Army v. Valiant level and that's not a feud I give a fuck about (sorry Johnny). Was Jake v. Dibiase a feud of note? Was it something built on tv? Was it a storyline people were invested in? Jake is one of the all time greats at getting over an angle and making you remember it - I have no memory of such a thing. At all. Did they run shows with those matches on top? Did fans pay and turn up to see those shows? Well? If it's "yes" then they are doing something right. This is staggering because you're basically admitting that it wasn't a storyline, yet you're claiming Dylan is wrong. Maybe they didn't turn up to see Jake vs. Ted because of a feud but because they were Jake fans who had seen this bastard kicking kids out of a swimming pool last week. "Hot feud" is not the only reason that puts asses in seats. It's a very strong one, but not the only one. Ted vs. Jake in Jan 88 isn't Muraco vs. Orndorff in 86. Both were hot. Sometimes it might be as simple as putting two hot guys in a match. People will turn up. If that didn't happen then why keep running it on top? Same with the other examples. Except... They weren't running Ted vs Jake on top regularly. Ted was in the feud with Hogan, which pulled in Bigelow and Andre, and occassionally Bundy and Duggan (who was often used in Hogan's spot on nights of the week when Hogan had the night off). Once that ran it's course, Ted feuded with Savage. For a fucking long time. Ted vs Jake was just thrown together. It would be like the MX facing the Roadies in late 1987 over the US Tag Titles, because the Roadies were over as faces and the MX were over as heels. It's a thrown together matches of a top face tag team against a top heel tag team, even if they were involved in other feuds. Except... Well... There's that little Night of the Skywalkers thingy at Starcade 1986 that every JCP fan would know. So if Roadies-MX hadn't been run in your town around the time of Starcarde, you getting it in say September 1987 at the first card in Detroit (to pull a hypothetical out of my ass) would be a big deal for you: it was a major feud in the past year that you haven't seen. Okay... what the fuck... let's look at the first Detroit card: JCP @ Detroit, MI - Joe Louis Arena - September 25, 1987 (8,000) Debut at the venue The Barbarian defeated Shane Douglas Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Gary Young Sting defeated Eddie Gilbert Tim Horner defeated Shaska Whatley NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Rick Steiner Nikita Koloff defeated Ivan Koloff NWA Super Bouts - 10/87: NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane (w/ Jim Cornette) via disqualification at around the 16-minute mark when Eaton hit Gibson in the face with Cornette's tennis racquet; after the bout, Morton stole the racquet away and cleared the ring Michael Hayes defeated the Terminator UWF TV Champion Terry Taylor defeated Brad Armstrong UWF Heavyweight Champion Steve Williams defeated Big Bubba Dusty Rhodes & the Road Warriors defeated NWA US Champion Lex Luger, Arn Anderson, & Tully Blanchard in a steel cage match Worldwide - 9/26/87: Ron Garvin pinned NWA World Champion Ric Flair in a steel cage match to win the title with a sunset flip off the top Let's go through it in detail... JCP @ Detroit, MI - Joe Louis Arena - September 25, 1987 (8,000) Debut at the venue 1. The Barbarian defeated Shane Douglas 2. Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Gary Young These are throw aways prelim matches. 3. Sting defeated Eddie Gilbert Sting had been managed by Gilbert while partnering with Rick Steiner. He had a falling out with Gilbert and Steiner, and went face. He'd been feuding with Gilbert and Steiner for months. 4. Tim Horner defeated Shaska Whatley Horner & Brad Armstrong (the Lightening Express) were UWF Tag champs. I seem to recall them having a storyline with the Jive Tones (Shaska & Tiger Conway). 5. NWA Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Rick Steiner Rick got a number of challenges against Barry. We got one out here in Los Angeles. I don't recall if they had a clear storyline... might have been a little more clear in UWF rather than JCP as they were still taping TV for both at this time. Another example of them facing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXd2sy0B7c Anyway, I don't recall being surprised when they were too face each other in LA. 6. Nikita Koloff defeated Ivan Koloff Nikita against his uncle. Storyline. 7. NWA Super Bouts - 10/87: NWA Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane (w/ Jim Cornette) via disqualification at around the 16-minute mark when Eaton hit Gibson in the face with Cornette's tennis racquet; after the bout, Morton stole the racquet away and cleared the ring One of the most famous feuds of the era. 8. Michael Hayes defeated the Terminator Terminator was part of Skandor Akbar's Army, which was feuding heavily with the Freebirds at the time. Storyline. 9. UWF TV Champion Terry Taylor defeated Brad Armstrong Armstrong & Horner were the UWF Tag champs at the time. Taylor's major feud, Chris Adams, had skipped town earlier in September. I don't recall if Terry got a focused feud prior to the lead into Starcade (Taylor vs Nikita for the TV titles). He did continue to play a role in the Gilbert vs Sting feud. 10. UWF Heavyweight Champion Steve Williams defeated Big Bubba Doc won the title from Bubba. Storyline. 11. Dusty Rhodes & the Road Warriors defeated NWA US Champion Lex Luger, Arn Anderson, & Tully Blanchard in a steel cage match Dusty vs the Four Horsemen was one of the biggest, longest running feuds in JCP. The Warriors had been pairing with Dusty opposite the Horsemen for well over a year. Storyline. 12. Worldwide - 9/26/87: Ron Garvin pinned NWA World Champion Ric Flair in a steel cage match to win the title with a sunset flip off the top This was Ric's major feud at the time... and it's the title change. 12 matches. 7 matches had storylines, with it very likely that there was more to several of those UWF matches (Taylor-Armstrong, Barry-Steiner and Horner-Shaska) than I remember. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Okay huge card. But I would expect the combination of entering a major media market for the first time that was a necessity to survival and a freaking world title change on top to be a huge card. Not exactly the average night for the NWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine at 4:43 with a small package as Valentine attempted the figure-4 Feud of former partners. I watched a ton of Valentine for some project or other about five years back and for whatever this is worth, I don't think this was a feud in 88. The New Dream Team broke up after Survivor Series, which would be Thanksgiving 87. So my sense is that they already ran Dream Team break up/ Valentine v Beefcake, New Dream Team forms, that one feuds with Beefcake and then moves on to other feuds and then that one breaks up, Johnny V leaves the WWF and both Valentine and Bravo are with new managers. My sense is that by January of 88, Beefcake v Valentine is less a feud and more something like JYD v Valentine in late 86: two guys who know spots to work against each other. Feud started here: WWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - December 7, 1987 (11,000) Saturday Night's Main Event #14 - shown 1/2/88 on NBC - featured Ventura conducting a backstage interview with Valentine & Hart regarding the upcoming match with Koko B. Ware; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Koko, with Frankie, with Koko saying he had received tips on Valentine from Brutus Beefcake Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Koko B. Ware via submission with the figure-4 at around the 7:30 mark; Brutus Beefcake appeared ringside mid-way through the match but was sent backstage by referee Joey Marella; after the match, Valentine put Koko back in the hold until Beefcake came out to make the save, scaring Valentine backstage with his scissors and cutting some hair from Hart's head Blow off kind of here: WWF @ Nashville, TN - Municipal Auditorium - March 7, 1988 (10,000; heavily papered; sell out) Saturday Night's Main Event #15 - 3/12/88 on NBC (10.0); featured Gene Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Greg Valentine with Jimmy Hart regarding Valentine's upcoming match with Brutus Beefcake; included Okerlund conducting a backstage interview with Beefcake regarding his upcoming match; Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine (w/ Jimmy Hart) by lifting his shoulder out of a back suplex into a bridge at 9:00; WWF IC Champion the Honkytonk Man appeared ringside at the 4-minute mark and taunted Beefcake over the mic until he was sent backstage by referees; after the bout, Beefcake snuck up behind Valentine and cut off a bit of his hair before scaring Valentine and Hart from the ring with his cutting shears Though they stayed going around the horn through Mania, with one match after (in Milan, taped). They were saving HTM-Brutus for Mania and post-Mania to go around the horn. But it was a feud, they started going around the horn in December, did the TV angle to air with the turn of the new year, and ran it through Mania. The comp to a Hogan Feud would be Kamala in late 1986 / early 1987: it was between the Orndorff feud and Andre match, with other stuff lined up for Hogan after Mania. It wasn't as big as Orndorff from a feud / storyline standpoint, but it did have a storyline that folks would know. Valentine-Beefcake was like that. Not a massive one, they had plans for Beefcake to go towards something bigger (IC Title), but this had a storyline created to fill space, and gave it a SNME setting to start and then play out on. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Okay huge card. But I would expect the combination of entering a major media market for the first time that was a necessity to survival and a freaking world title change on top to be a huge card. Not exactly the average night for the NWA. It's not the average night. Which is why I used Los Angeles examples earlier. The reason I went to that card was because I was making the hypothetical of RW vs MX happening on that card: it would have been a match that the fans knew what was all about (i.e. Skywalkers the year before) rather than just being thrown out there. Instead, the card: (i) put the MX into a match with their biggest rivals ever (who they were having some feuding going on in 1987 as well... and the MX would shortly cost the R'n'R those WTT (ii) put the RW into a match with the Horsemen who they had been feuding with for more than a year... teaming with Dusty, who had been feuding with the Horsemen from the time the 4H were created Storyline. More so than the hypothetical I tossed out. Since I mentioned the card, I needed to go take a look at it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 God. Final thoughts here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5533535 I'm not saying more about the debate. Just to say it's easy to play that game if you know where to look. Bolded matches had feuds / storylines. WrestleMania VI - Toronto, Ontario - Skydome - April 1, 1990 (64,287; announced at 67,678; sell out; new attendance record) Rick Martel defeated Koko B. Ware via submission with the Boston Crab at 5:30 Demolition defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Andre the Giant & Haku (w/ Bobby Heenan) to win the titles at 9:15 when Ax pinned Haku following the Decapitation after Andre's arms became entangled in the ring ropes; during the contest, it was mentioned Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart had already challenged the winners to a title match; after the match, Heenan berated Andre for the loss and slapped him before Andre grabbed Heenan by the jacket, slapped, and punched Heenan out of the ring; moments later, Haku attempted to attack Andre but Andre assaulted him and cleared Haku from the ring, with Andre then stealing the team's motorized cart to leave ringside alone (Andre's last TV match) Earthquake (w/ Jimmy Hart) pinned Hercules with an elbow drop and the sit-down splash at 4:54; after the match, Earthquake hit a second sit-down splash; moments later, Hercules struggled back to his feet under his own power Brutus Beefcake pinned Mr. Perfect (w/ the Genius) at 7:47 after a catapult into the ringpost; during the bout, Mary Tyler Moore was shown in attendance; after the match, the Genius attempted to steal Beefcake's hedge clippers and sneak backstage but Beefcake caught him on the floor, rolled him back in the ring, put him in the sleeper, and then cut the Genius' hair (Perfect's first national TV pinfall loss) (WrestleMania's Greatest Matches Vol. 2) Roddy Piper fought Bad News Brown to a double count-out at 6:47 when both men began brawling on the floor and Piper attempted to hit News with a steel chair; Piper had half his body painted black for the match; after the contest, both men continued brawling in the aisle all the way backstage, with Pat Patterson, Chief Jay Strongbow, Rene Goulet, and referees trying to break up the fight (Born to Controversy: The Roddy Piper Story) Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov when Bret pinned Zhukov following the Hart Attack at the 18-second mark The Barbarian (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Tito Santana with a clothesline off the top at 4:33 Dusty Rhodes & Sapphire (w/ Miss Elizabeth) defeated Randy Savage & Sensational Sherri at 7:31 when Sapphire pinned Sherri with a roll up after Elizabeth shoved Sherri as Sherri grabbed at her on the floor; prior to the bout, Rhodes introduced Elizabeth to be in his and Sapphire's corner; after the bout, Rhodes stole Savage's sceptor before dancing in the ring with Sapphire and Elizabeth (Miss Elizabeth's surprise return after a 3-month absence) (the first man-woman tag team match) (American Dream: The Dusty Rhodes Story, Macho Madness: The Ultimate Randy Savage Collection) The Orient Express (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty via count-out at 7:36 after Jannetty had salt thrown into his eyes while on the floor Jim Duggan pinned Dino Bravo (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 4:15 after hitting him with the 2x4; after the bout, Earthquake attacked Duggan and hit two sit-down splashes Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil) defeated Jake Roberts via count-out at 11:53 as Roberts was distracted by Virgil on the floor; after the match, Virgil returned backstage with the Million $ belt while Roberts hit the DDT on Dibiase and passed his money to fans around ringside; prior to the bout, Gene Okerlund conducted a backstage interview with Roberts regarding the match; stipulations stated the winner would earn the Million $ Belt (WrestleMania 26 Collector's Edition) The Big Bossman pinned Akeem (w/ Slick) at around 1:50 with the sidewalk slam despite interference from Ted Dibiase before the match; Dibiase hid underneath the ring after the previous match Rick Rude (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Jimmy Snuka at 3:51 with the Rude Awakening; Steve Allen did guest commentary for the match WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan to win the title at 22:50 with a splash after Hogan missed the legdrop; after the match, Hogan presented Warrior with the world title belt; both championships were on the line in the contest; voted Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Match of the Year (Hulkamania Forever, The Ultimate Warrior 92, Best of the WWF: Ultimate Warrior, WrestleMania X8, The Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior, The History of the WWE Heavyweight Championship, Hulk Hogan: The Ultimate Anthology) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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