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JerryvonKramer

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Dude. People were invested in Valiant vs Jones and his Army. People paid money to see it. Orndorff/ Muraco was a match on Mania 2 that had no build up whatsoever on TV and didn't sell one ticket to that clusterfuck of a show. I remember when they announced the card for Mania 2. The only thing we thought about Muraco/ Orndorff was "Wow, that should be cool." And then it went and sucked. It didn't draw a dime. The only guys that drew on that show were Hogan and William Perry.

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Jones was a regional star no doubt about it, but in 1986 he was a manager. I don't understand the point. Jones in 86 for MACW is like what? Pedro Morales?

 

I don't see how it's a bad example at all. Jones is hardly comparable to Orndorff or Muraco. What is the point being made? Could Jones main event in 86? Could he have a run with Flair or Dusty on top if need be? Well?

Jones could manage a stable of middling talent to headline B-Shows with an angle that was very over on tv. B shows meant a shitload to Crockett business model.

 

Orndorff was a great draw opposite Hogan to the point where he got two shots. Muraco in 86 didn't mean much of anything as a drawing card, at least not to my recollection.

 

Jones was a name that still had something to him in Crockett home base. He was positioned in such a way where that could be capitalized on. A guy like Harley Race was just one of a shitload of people that got plugged in against Hogan. So was Dr. D. So was Bad News Brown. So were a lot of people. Once they were done with Hogan I don't see very many of them that could be said to continue to have a great deal of relevance particularly after 86. Could they have been called back up to work Hogan in more programs? I suppose so, but really who couldn't have? Nikoli Volkoff got shots against Hogan. I'm sure John Nord would have gotten a run. It's not because they were huge stars, it's because they fit the mold and because they were expendable.

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Dude. People were invested in Valiant vs Jones and his Army. People paid money to see it. Orndorff/ Muraco was a match on Mania 2 that had no build up whatsoever on TV and didn't sell one ticket to that clusterfuck of a show. I remember when they announced the card for Mania 2. The only thing we thought about Muraco/ Orndorff was "Wow, that should be cool." And then it went and sucked. It didn't draw a dime. The only guys that drew on that show were Hogan and William Perry.

I didn't know till just now that the Nassau show got 16,500 and the LA show 14,500.

 

Do you think those 16,000 people were there mainly for Piper vs. Mr. T? Probably.

 

Anyway, I must go now, but I'll leave you with this:

 

WWF @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - January 10, 1986 (18,000)

Scott McGhee fought Barry O to a draw

Dan Spivey defeated Terry Gibbs

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

Hillbilly Jim defeated Big John Studd via disqualification

Andre the Giant defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out

Bob Orton Jr. defeated Cousin Luke

Paul Orndorff fought Roddy Piper to a no contest

Don Muraco defeated Ricky Steamboat

 

Who sold the 18,000 tickets that night?

 

How about this night?

 

WWF @ Oakland, CA - January 16, 1986 (12,000)

Terry Gibbs defeated Guy Lambert

Hercules defeated Steve Gatorwolf

George Wells defeated Matt Borne

Ted Arcidi defeated Alexis Smirnoff

Dan Spivey defeated Tiger Chung Lee

Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee

Terry Funk pinned the Junkyard Dog

Randy Savage & Jesse Ventura defeated WWF IC Champion Tito Santana & Pedro Morales when Savage pinned Santana

WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid

Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. via count-out

 

Here?

 

WWF @ Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - February 12, 1986 (6,400)

Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Steve Gatorwolf & Jose Luis Rivera

Pedro Morales defeated Tiger Chung Lee

Uncle Elmer defeated Bob Orton Jr. via disqualification

Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee

Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification

Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper

 

WWF @ Sydney, Australia - Entertainment Center - April 11, 1986 (9,000)

Sivi Afi pinned Hercules

George Skaaland vs. Matt Borne

SD Jones vs. Steve Lombardi

Paul Roma vs. Rene Goulet

Lanny Poffo vs. Tiger Chung Lee

Cpl. Kirchner vs. the Iron Sheik

Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification

 

vs. Hogan those two drew pretty well in 86:

 

WWF @ Chicago, IL - Rosemont Horizon - July 11, 1986 (17,000)

Cousin Luke defeated Paul Christy

Brickhouse Brown defeated Tiger Chung Lee

George Wells defeated Steve Lombardi

Mike Rotundo & Dan Spivey defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart when Spivey pinned Bret

Harley Race pinned Lanny Poffo

The Iron Sheik defeated the Junkyard Dog via count-out

Ricky Steamboat defeated Jake Roberts via disqualification at 15:04

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Don Muraco

 

WWF @ Minneapolis, MN - Met Center - August 17, 1986 (11,500)

Cpl. Kirchner defeated Tiger Chung Lee

Hercules defeated Tito Santana via count-out

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell fought Mike Rotundo & Danny Spivey to a draw

The Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake; the winners of this match were to meet the winner of the Killer Bees / Rotondo & Spivey match to determine who would get a tag team title shot at the 10/5 show but because the previous match went to a draw Sheik & Volkoff automatically won the title shot

King Kong Bundy & Big John Studd defeated Big & Super Machine via disqualification

Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification

 

WWF @ Montreal, Quebec - Forum - August 18, 1986 (23,000)

Harley Race defeated Cousin Luke

King Tonga & Sivi Afi defeated Bob Orton Jr. & Rene Goulet

Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Jimmy Jack & Dory Funk Jr.

The Junkyard Dog defeated Adrian Adonis

Ricky Steamboat fought Jake Roberts to a draw

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated George Steele

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Don Muraco

 

WWF @ Landover, MD - Capital Centre - August 24, 1986 (20,000; sell out)

Cpl. Kirchner defeated Tiger Chung Lee

King Harley Race defeated SD Jones

Nikolai Volkoff & the Iron Sheik defeated Mike Rotundo & Dan Spivey

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Brutus Beefcake & Greg Valentine

Adrian Adonis defeated the Junkyard Dog

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated George Steele via count-out

Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification

 

The Big Event - Toronto, Ontario - CNE Stadium - August 28, 1986 (64,000; 61,470 paid; sell out)

Included Gorilla Monsoon, Johnny Valiant, & Ernie Ladd on commentary

B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated Jimmy Jack & Dory Funk Jr. (w/ Jimmy Hart) at 6:53 when Brunzell pinned Jimmy Jack with an inside cradle after switching places with Blair in the ring, moments after the Killer Bees put their masks on while on the floor (Dory’s last match in the WWF for nearly 10 years)

Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Don Muraco (w/ Mr. Fuji) fought King Tonga to a 20-minute time-limit draw as Tonga had Muraco covered following a crossbody off the top

Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Ted Arcidi defeated Tony Garea (sub. for Tony Atlas) via submission with a bearhug at 2:41

The Junkyard Dog defeated Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) via count-out at around the 4:15 mark after Adonis collided with Hart on the ring apron and fell over the top to the floor, although the bell rang within seconds of him being outside the ring; prior to the bout, Gene Okerlund interviewed Hart in the arena before he and Adonis made their way to the ring

Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Dick Slater pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 6:24 with a standing elbow off the top and a roll over

Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, & Bobby Heenan defeated Big & Super Machine, & Capt. Lou Albano (w/ Giant Machine) via disqualification at 7:49 when Giant Machine interfered, as Studd was in the ring illegally, and single-handedly beat down and cleared the ring of the opposition

Ricky Steamboat pinned Jake Roberts in a Snake Pit Match at 10:17 with a roll up as Roberts sat on Steamboat's chest making a nonchalant cover (Jake "The Snake" Roberts: Pick Your Poison)

Billy Jack Haynes pinned Hercules with a backslide at 6:08 as Hercules attempted a neckbreaker

Prime Time Wrestling - 9/16/86: Jacques & Raymond Rougeau defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake when Raymond, the illegal man, pinned Valentine with a sunset flip at 14:51 as Valentine attempted to put Jacques in the figure-4

King Harley Race pinned Pedro Morales with a double leg pickup and putting both feet on the middle rope for leverage

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan defeated Paul Orndorff (w/ Bobby Heenan) via disqualification at 11:05 after Heenan hit Hogan over the head with a wooden stool as the champion had Orndorff set up for the piledriver; the decision of the match was not made clear until several moments thereafter as Orndorff covered the champion and the referee, who had been knocked out, tapped his shoulder three times before calling for the bell; after the bout, Orndorff put the belt on and attacked the champion but Hogan eventually sent him to the floor with a boot to the face (Hulk Still Rules, Hulk Hogan: The Ultimate Anthology)

 

WWF @ Detroit, MI - October 25, 1986 (21,000; sell out)

Cpl. Kirchner fought Nick Kiniski to a draw

Frenchy Martin pinned Jerry Valiant

Jake Roberts defeated Sivi Afi

Tito Santana pinned Jimmy Jack Funk

The Honkytonk Man defeated Steve Lombardi

Sika pinned Lanny Poffo

George Steele defeated Mr. Fuji in a tuxedo match

Ricky Steamboat defeated WWF IC Champion Randy Savage via count-out

Paul Orndorff defeated WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan via disqualification

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Dude. People were invested in Valiant vs Jones and his Army. People paid money to see it. Orndorff/ Muraco was a match on Mania 2 that had no build up whatsoever on TV and didn't sell one ticket to that clusterfuck of a show. I remember when they announced the card for Mania 2. The only thing we thought about Muraco/ Orndorff was "Wow, that should be cool." And then it went and sucked. It didn't draw a dime. The only guys that drew on that show were Hogan and William Perry.

I didn't know till just now that the Nassau show got 16,500 and the LA show 14,500.

 

Do you think those 16,000 people were there mainly for Piper vs. Mr. T? Probably.

They were there for WrestleMania

 

Anyway, I must go now, but I'll leave you with this:

 

WWF @ Pittsburgh, PA - Civic Arena - January 10, 1986 (18,000)

Scott McGhee fought Barry O to a draw

Dan Spivey defeated Terry Gibbs

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

Hillbilly Jim defeated Big John Studd via disqualification

Andre the Giant defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out

Bob Orton Jr. defeated Cousin Luke

Paul Orndorff fought Roddy Piper to a no contest

Don Muraco defeated Ricky Steamboat

 

Who sold the 18,000 tickets that night?

The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud, the hot Andre/ Bundy feud, and the hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then.

 

How about this night?

 

WWF @ Oakland, CA - January 16, 1986 (12,000)

Terry Gibbs defeated Guy Lambert

Hercules defeated Steve Gatorwolf

George Wells defeated Matt Borne

Ted Arcidi defeated Alexis Smirnoff

Dan Spivey defeated Tiger Chung Lee

Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee

Terry Funk pinned the Junkyard Dog

Randy Savage & Jesse Ventura defeated WWF IC Champion Tito Santana & Pedro Morales when Savage pinned Santana

WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid

Paul Orndorff defeated Bob Orton Jr. via count-out

The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud, and the hot Savage/ Tito feud with Jesse actually wrestling. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then.

 

Here?

 

WWF @ Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - February 12, 1986 (6,400)

Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart defeated Steve Gatorwolf & Jose Luis Rivera

Pedro Morales defeated Tiger Chung Lee

Uncle Elmer defeated Bob Orton Jr. via disqualification

Adrian Adonis defeated Scott McGhee

Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification

Paul Orndorff defeated Roddy Piper

The hot Piper/ Orndorff feud and the hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. All feuds that had stories behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then.

 

 

WWF @ Sydney, Australia - Entertainment Center - April 11, 1986 (9,000)

Sivi Afi pinned Hercules

George Skaaland vs. Matt Borne

SD Jones vs. Steve Lombardi

Paul Roma vs. Rene Goulet

Lanny Poffo vs. Tiger Chung Lee

Cpl. Kirchner vs. the Iron Sheik

Ricky Steamboat defeated Don Muraco via disqualification

 

The hot Muraco/ Steamboat feud. A feud that had a story behind them. Oh, and the fact that WWF was the hottest ticket in town around then. And the fact that it was Australia.

 

 

vs. Hogan those two drew pretty well in 86:

Yeah? So? Everyone drew against Hogan back then, especially Orndorff. None of that has anything to do with the fact that no one cared about Orndorff/ Muraco at Mania 2 because there was no build up or reason being shown that they were fighting. No one paid to see that match because no one had a reason to pay to see that match. People paid money to see Valiant vs Jones and his Army because they were invested in seeing it, because it was made to be important to the audience.

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Let me just pause here and try to take stock of the argument taking place. I think this might be helpful to see if everyone has understood exactly what the issue is.

 

My argument in this thread has been this:

 

WWF had a much deeper roster than JCP and its midcards were "stacked" with big names. This is demonstrably the case and I have shown it by looking down specific cards and pointing it out. Another point I made some months ago, earlier in the thread, is that the gap between the main event and the rest of card was wider in JCP than it was in WWF -- wider in terms of star power. WWF has guys like Paul Orndorff in the midcard, JCP has a retired Paul Jones.

 

The argument that Dylan and Johnny Sorrow have adopted is:

 

The "big stars" in WWF were not used meaningfully and no one gave a shit about them. JCP had guys like Jones and Valiant in meaningful feuds, so they meant more. This somewhat negates the idea that WWF cards were "stacked" and JCP cards were thin.

 

Is that a fair summary?

 

EDIT: I would like to mention too that thinking about OJ's point: seems to me that WWF became better at midcard feuds from 89 onwards.

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I do think you could make a case that through most of 86 WWF was still booking certain guys in certain areas for regional drawing purposes or using feuds like Valentine/Tito as a front end feud that could draw in big towns on it's won.

Mad Dog Vachon being used regularly in the Twin Cities between June 1984 and August 1985 is a good example of booking someone as a "regional" draw.

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Let me just pause here and try to take stock of the argument taking place. I think this might be helpful to see if everyone has understood exactly what the issue is.

 

My argument in this thread has been this:

 

WWF had a much deeper roster than JCP and its midcards were "stacked" with big names. This is demonstrably the case and I have shown it by looking down specific cards and pointing it out. Another point I made some months ago, earlier in the thread, is that the gap between the main event and the rest of card was wider in JCP than it was in WWF -- wider in terms of star power. WWF has guys like Paul Orndorff in the midcard, JCP has a retired Paul Jones.

 

The argument that Dylan and Johnny Sorrow have adopted is:

 

The "big stars" in WWF were not used meaningfully and no one gave a shit about them. JCP had guys like Jones and Valiant in meaningful feuds, so they meant more. This somewhat negates the idea that WWF cards were "stacked" and JCP cards were thin.

 

Is that a fair summary?

 

EDIT: I would like to mention too that thinking about OJ's point: seems to me that WWF became better at midcard feuds from 89 onwards.

What this summary tells me (if accurate) is that JCP did more with less and knew how to book their guys to maximize their drawing power. The WWF did less with more, possibly due to there being too many hands and not enough TV time to build compelling feuds and matchups.

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Let me just pause here and try to take stock of the argument taking place. I think this might be helpful to see if everyone has understood exactly what the issue is.

 

My argument in this thread has been this:

 

WWF had a much deeper roster than JCP and its midcards were "stacked" with big names. This is demonstrably the case and I have shown it by looking down specific cards and pointing it out. Another point I made some months ago, earlier in the thread, is that the gap between the main event and the rest of card was wider in JCP than it was in WWF -- wider in terms of star power. WWF has guys like Paul Orndorff in the midcard, JCP has a retired Paul Jones.

 

The argument that Dylan and Johnny Sorrow have adopted is:

 

The "big stars" in WWF were not used meaningfully and no one gave a shit about them. JCP had guys like Jones and Valiant in meaningful feuds, so they meant more. This somewhat negates the idea that WWF cards were "stacked" and JCP cards were thin.

 

Is that a fair summary?

 

EDIT: I would like to mention too that thinking about OJ's point: seems to me that WWF became better at midcard feuds from 89 onwards.

My argument is that "big names" in wrestling cannot be divorced from context. Pointing to historical significance of guys or relative career stardom does not tell us how they were presented, promoted or used by a particular company. Buddy Landel and Dutch Mantell are two of my favorites but their inclusion on the WCW roster in the early 90's isn't an indication that the WCW roster was incredibly deep in any meaningful sense of the term.

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Buddy Landel was still really fucking good in the early 90s.

 

Having said that, I have seen some stacked WWF cards during 1986-87 but then the Crockett cards almost always looked like PPV caliber cards. My buddy, Pat Crocker always bought my comps using money orders. He would write notes telling me about random NWA shows he attended in the 80s and they were all fucking mouth salivating and loaded to the gills.

 

From a quality standpoint, this looks like the most appealing WWF card Jerry mentioned...

 

Scott McGhee fought Barry O to a draw

Dan Spivey defeated Terry Gibbs

Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart

Hillbilly Jim defeated Big John Studd via disqualification

Andre the Giant defeated King Kong Bundy via count-out

Bob Orton Jr. defeated Cousin Luke

Paul Orndorff fought Roddy Piper to a no contest

Don Muraco defeated Ricky Steamboat

 

As a WWF fan, you have Harts vs. Bulldogs which would be the 2 hottest tag teams in the company at the time. You have your Andre appearance. You have Orndorff vs. Piper which would rock and Steamboat fighting some sucky dude. The rest of the card looks like shit but you would probably walk away happy if you were a WWF fan.

 

 

San Antonio is my hometown so I picked a card for Crockett in San Antonio in 1986. San Antonio wasn't even a regular Crockett loop town.

 

JCP @ San Antonio, TX - May 22, 1986

Ron Garvin defeated the Barbarian

Manny Fernandez defeated Baron Von Raschke

Wahoo McDaniel defeated Jimmy Garvin via disqualification

Jimmy Valiant defeated Pez Whatley in a taped fist match

NWA Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Dennis Condrey defeated Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson

The Road Warriors defeated Ivan & Nikita Koloff in a double Russian chain match

NWA US Champion Magnum TA vs. NWA National Heavyweight Champion Tully Blanchard

Dusty Rhodes vs. NWA World Champion Ric Flair

 

You can take off the main event if you want since Hogan did not appear on the other card. Ron Garvin vs. Barbarian looks about 100x more interesting than any other midcard or lower card match on that WWF card. Wahoo vs. Garvin probably sucked because Garvin sucked at this point but maybe not if Wahoo was in full punisher mode. Valiant may have sucked but they put him in a taped fist match. Two duded punching each other in the face... hiding weaknesses. The Roadies vs. Russians probably was not good but has the same sort of freak show appeal that Andre coming to town had. Does anything on the WWF card come close to a Magnum vs. Tully or RNR vs. MX match... on the same card??? Maybe Piper-Orndorff because that fucking rules but how was the WWF so deep that they were featuring a lot of shit matches each show?

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Three points really quickly, Will:

 

1. I do think 1986 is a year when JCP had a strong roster and WWF didn't quite have the incredible depth they would go on to have in 87 and 88 (by 89, forget about it, they had a "dream" roster). You've still got the last remnants of the overhang from the Vince Sr era hanging around and complete dogshit like the Hillbillies taking up space.

 

2. My point in this thread if you read it back has been that JCP were always going to put on stronger cards for house shows because in a 5- or 6-match card, you're going to get a match from the Horsemen (with or without Flair), R n R, Midnights and someone like a Ron Garvin or Wahoo. But problem is that it's the SAME 10-15 guys carrying the company card after card, night after night, year after year. The way to measure DEPTH is not to look at two isolated cards on a random night in 1986, it's to look at 30 cards over a decent period of time in a given year to see what variety of matches they had going on. Everyone knows WWF ran the A-shows and the B-shows on their house circuits, sometimes they even ran C-shows. What is deeper? Running 20 towns with Arn and Tully in a tag match and some variation of Rock n Rolls vs. Midnights or running 20 towns with 10 of them headlined by Hogan vs. Orndorff with Bob Orton, Roddy Piper and Don Muraco doing something underneath and 10 with Steamboat vs. Savage with Andre and Jake Roberts doing something underneath? I mean it can be Cousin Luke vs. Nameless Jobber in all of those towns and no doubt the JCP cards all look tastier from a fan perspective, but the strength of the card belies the fact that it's the same strong card every night.

 

I know you don't like my football ("soccer"!) analogies, but it's like a team has a very strong first XI who could probably win the league, but there's no one sitting on the bench. If someone gets injured, there isn't anyone who can come in. There's another team who have a strong first XI too, but they also have a number of stars sitting on the bench -- or maybe like Manchester United they keep rotating them. Now the fan at home can think "why is player X sitting on the bench? He's be a star in any other team, he's being WASTED!" but that is what SQUAD DEPTH is. We can say WWF were wasteful, or we can say that they had the luxury of running many different cards of middling quality with a rotated squad, while JCP had to run almost the same amount of cards with mostly the same guys. WWF had shit on some of their shows no doubt but squad rotation means you can't always play your first XI.

 

3. The reason I wanted to look at supercards as opposed to house shows is because that's the only time we see a full roster in action. And just looking at Wrestlemania vs. Starrcade year-on-year you can see not only how many MORE wrestlers WWF had, but also how many more big names with drawing records.

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. And just looking at Wrestlemania vs. Starrcade year-on-year you can see not only how many MORE wrestlers WWF had, but also how many more big names with drawing records.

If a waiter serves you a plate of chewed up spat out meat, are you going to be excited if he says "This was once a filet mignon"?

 

Drawing record doesn't matter when you aren't being booked as a draw. This is what makes all of the tag title v tag title comparisons so ridiculous.

 

 

King of the Ring 2000

WWE Hardcore Championship

9 time San Francisco tag champ, AWA tag champion, multiple time Lutte International tag champion and former WWF Ic champ Pat Patterson v. multiple NWA Florida and NWA Georgia title holder Jerry Briscoe

 

 

FMW 11/12/00

WEW Hardcore Championship

Kevin Sullivan SMW jobber Kintaro Kanemura v Balls Mahoney tag partner Masato Tanaka

 

1-0 is a really stupid way to discuss wrestling cards.

 

Pat Patterson and Briscoe were working a comedy heat killer bra and panties match, the hardcore title was the secondary title in FMW. If the WWF presents a wrestler as a comedy jobber, he is a comedy jobber.

 

If in Febuary of 97 the WWF ran Kikuchi v Johnny Saint v Danny Hodge v Hijo Del Santo in a 4-way match for the Jr heavyweight title in a three minute dark match that ends when Kurggan choke slams them all...it doesn't matter what any of the participants did before the match. They are jobbers and to go "But look at all their accomplishments, so much more impresive than the Jushin Lyger v Ohtani in New Japan"..it misses the point completely.

 

Whichever way you slice it, whichever way you want to argue it, Orndorff vs. Muraco is a much more impressive midcard match than Jimmy Valiant vs. Paul Jones.

Johnny Sorrow writes in response

 

None of that has anything to do with the fact that no one cared about Orndorff/ Muraco at Mania 2 because there was no build up or reason being shown that they were fighting. No one paid to see that match because no one had a reason to pay to see that match. People paid money to see Valiant vs Jones and his Army because they were invested in seeing it, because it was made to be important to the audience.

Someone once wrote:

 

People seem to be talking about the crowd as if they are in some way autonomous from the performers in the ring, they aren't. They are PRIMED by the guys in the ring beforehand through promos, angles, vignettes and so on.

Sorrow says that audience was primed through booking angles, promos, vignettes and so on to care about Valiant v Jones. The audience was also primed to not give a shit about Orndorf/Muraco. Primed to treat it as unimpressive.

 

Sorrow is I think from traditional WWF town Philly. I'm from traditional WWF town DC and occasioanlly went to wrestling with grandfather in WWF base NYC. We both agree that Valiant v Paul Jones was a focused midcard angle that was booked as something you should care about and Orndorf v Muraco was booked as meaningless shit that might be a good time to take a piss break.

 

In the ranking tag teams match thread I wrote about a WWF Baltimore show I went to as a kid

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5528221

 

Scott Mcghee wrestled Tiger Chung Lee to a draw and it was in my mind the most entertaining match on the card. Scott Mcghee is a journeyman wrestler in the 80s who did superslick almost British "look I have nothing up my sleeves matwork" and result of seeing him live, he became a guy I always search for and will be super dissapointed if he doesn't have at least 10 matches on the WWF 80s redo set. Tiger Chung Lee is a guy who didn't impress as much when I was kid, but he is a guy who will work super crisp and one of two wrestlers Karl Gotch felt wasn't getting pushed enough in New Japan comparative to their skill level.

 

It doesn't matter that I enjoyed the match, it was booked as a undercard heat killer that was supposed to encourage you to go to the merch stand and supposed to kill the crowds heat so much that it would enhance the pop for Hogan in the next match. It doesn't matter if match was good or not, doesn't matter what they've accomplished elsewhere. They were booked as jobbers that crowd shouldn't care about---thus they are jobbers that crowd doesn't care about. And there is nothing wrong with that. The card booked around one or two matches with rest of show booked as meaningless garbage is a formula that was super succesful, made a ton of money.

 

The WWF was built around feeding their ace meat, the meat is then chewed up and spat out.

 

No one cares about a plate of raw ground up meat, you only care when it formed into a hamburger.

And if a waiter serves you a plate of chewed up spat out meat, you don't really care if it was once filet or chuck.

 

Once was a big name, now interchangable midcard jobber. Even if he was once kobe beef, regurgitated meat is regurgitated meat.

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I feel the thesis being advanced in this thread is far too simplistic to serve. It seems to be willfully overlooking the fact that WWF was killing JCP all around the country -- or if it isn't, it's saying that success was 99% down to Hogan being on top.

 

I am not saying 1-0 is a way to assess wrestling cards, I was using it as a way to assess DEPTH. No amount of you saying Valiant vs. Jones was a well booked feud that fans were into and that Orndorff and Muraco were booked to be meaningless midcarders can change the fact that IF say JCP had Orndorff or Muraco, they 1. WOULD be on the card, and 2. WOULD be booked as bigger stars than Valiant and Jones.

 

The Patterson / Brisco comparison is nonsensical. Orndorff and Muraco were not so far removed from their pushes in 1986 to warrant comparison with those two in 1999.

 

I must now summon Solie.org

 

NWA roster for September 1986 was as follows: "The Nature Boy" Ric

Flair, "The American Dream" Dusty Rhodes, Nelson Royal, "Beautiful" Bobby

Eaton, Ivan Kolkoff, Hawk, Animal, Nikita Koloff, "The Enforcer" Arn

Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Ricky Morton, Robert Gibson, "Hands of Stone"

Ronnie Garvin, The Barbarian, Sam Houston, Chris Champion, Sean Royal,

Barry Windham, "Sweet" Stan Lane, "The Total Package" Lex Luger, Ray Candy,

Commando #2, The Warlord, "Ravishing" Rick Rude, Manny Fernandez, Kendall

Windham, Kevin Sullivan, Michael "P.S." Hayes, Big Bubba Rogers, Dick

Murdock

TOTAL ROSTER: 30

 

 

The WWF roster for September 1986 was as follows: The Fabulous Moolah,

George "The Animal" Steel, Andre the Giant, Pedro Morales, "Adorable"

Adrian Adonis, Tony Garea, The Magnificent Muraco, The Iron Shiek, Hulk

Hogan, The Junkyard Dog, Tito Santana, Lelanie Kai, Judy Martin, Moondog

Rex, Moondog Spot, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Gregg "The Hammer" Valentine, Mike

Rotundo, Nikolia Volkoff, "The Giant" John Studd, "Mr. Wonderful" Paul

Orndorff, Brutus Beefcake, King Kong Bundy, Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat,

"Cowboy" Bob Orton, Davey Boy Smith, The Dynamite Kid, Steve Lombardi, Sivi

Afi, Haku, Toma, Hillbilly Jim, B. Brian Blair, "Jump'in" Jim Brunzell,

Barry O, Brett "Hitman" Hart, Jim "The Andvil" Neidhart, Terry Funk, Dory

Funk Jr., Randy "Macho Man" Savage, "Leaping" Lanny Poffo, Corporal

Kirshener, Hercules Hernandez, Jauques Rougeau, Raymond Rougeau, Jake "The

Snake" Roberts, "Golden Boy" Danny Spivey, Jimmy Jack Funk, Billy Jack

Haynes, "The King" Handsome Harley Race, "The Natural Butch Reed, The

Honkytonk Man, "Superstar" Billy Graham, Paul Roma, Jim Powers, The Super

Machine, The Big Machine, Kamala the Uygandan Giant, Sika the Savage

Samoan, "The Birdman" Koko B. Ware.

TOTAL ROSTER: 59

 

I feel almost spent making such an obvious argument that the one roster is much deeper than the other one. Why this stubborn refusal to accept it?

 

Context can only change so much. It can't make Paul Jones into a bigger star or a better wrestler than Paul Orndorff in 1986. Sorry it just can't.

 

Imagine a scenario:

 

One day in 86 Orndorff wakes up and he's been fired.

 

The same day Jones wakes up and he's been fired.

 

Who's phone is ringing harder? Who's getting more offers? Is WWF offering Jones a job in New York? Are JCP offering Orndorff a job headlining their very next show?

 

Well?

 

There's only so much context, booking and (mis)management change. Depth is depth, quality is quality and stars are stars.

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Presentation is something you constantly push in other discussions. Why are you ignoring it here? Why is it hard to understand that presentation matters?

 

Yes Paul Orndorff would have had more job offers than Paul Jones in 1986 (of course I reject focus on 86 and I think Orndorff is a guy who has a real advantage over other WWF guys in this argument but whatever). But on the flipside Cornette and the Midnights had a meeting with Vince and chose not to go. Jerry Blackwell showed up at a tv taping and said "fuck this."

 

The point isn't that the WWF didn't have a lot of talent. It's that the vast, vast, vast majority of their talent was expendable and could have been replaced with any number of other guys. You can not say the same for Crockett

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Presentation is important and I don't doubt in 86 JCP were doing a lot better than WWF in terms of pushing midcard feuds (my view is that by 89, WWF were REALLY on it up and down the card and stay that way until at least 92, where almost every match at PPVs had big storylines and "meaning"), but I don't think it can perform miracles.

 

Also, I am interested in the extent to which that talent was expendable.

 

Earlier I said this:

 

The way to measure DEPTH is not to look at two isolated cards on a random night in 1986, it's to look at 30 cards over a decent period of time in a given year to see what variety of matches they had going on. Everyone knows WWF ran the A-shows and the B-shows on their house circuits, sometimes they even ran C-shows. What is deeper? Running 20 towns with Arn and Tully in a tag match and some variation of Rock n Rolls vs. Midnights or running 20 towns with 10 of them headlined by Hogan vs. Orndorff with Bob Orton, Roddy Piper and Don Muraco doing something underneath and 10 with Steamboat vs. Savage with Andre and Jake Roberts doing something underneath? I mean it can be Cousin Luke vs. Nameless Jobber in all of those towns and no doubt the JCP cards all look tastier from a fan perspective, but the strength of the card belies the fact that it's the same strong card every night.

 

I will take a look at 20 cards in succession of the same period from both WWF and JCP. Sticking with 1986 because I think it's giving Crockett the fairest fighting chance.

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I don't disagree with that Loss, but the point that that deeper lineup was basically the same night after night has either been ignored or artfully side-stepped.

I literally don't know what this means or what the point of it is

 

The line-up is some variation of the Horsemen with or without Flair on top, a Midnights vs. R n R match, and a few other repeated matches night after night after night. That's all it is saying.

 

JCP put on better cards because they had to use the same handful of guys over and over again. See soccer analogy about first XIs vs. squad rotation for more.

 

This at least is my theory, as I said I will put it to the test.

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I don't disagree with that Loss, but the point that that deeper lineup was basically the same night after night has either been ignored or artfully side-stepped.

It hasn't been ignored.

 

It seems to be willfully overlooking the fact that WWF was killing JCP all around the country

This has not been ignored either.

 

They were booked as jobbers that crowd shouldn't care about---thus they are jobbers that crowd doesn't care about. And there is nothing wrong with that. The card booked around one or two matches with rest of show booked as meaningless garbage is a formula that was super succesful, made a ton of money.

Again super succesful formula.

No one is denying that the WWF made a ton more money.

The question is what was their formula for making that money.

 

The WWF was built around feeding their ace meat, the meat is then chewed up and spat out.

 

No one cares about a plate of raw ground up meat, you only care when it formed into a hamburger.

And if a waiter serves you a plate of chewed up spat out meat, you don't really care if it was once filet or chuck.

The WWF formula is built around having to find new meat to feed top, forming it into hamburger then when it spit out, you have to get more raw meat. JCP wasn't built around having to constantly go out and find new meat.

 

One thing that I always thought was kind of interesting/cool is the complete transition Choshu made as a booker. I think I've mentioned before that there was a note in the WON in the middle of the 80s, either in the middle of his run in AJPW or just after his jump back to NJPW, where Dave tossed out something to the effect that Choshu was the least liked / most selfish man in Japanese wrestling. Just "hated". Think about happened since:

 

* Choshu got on the Board and some shares for returning

* Inoki and Fujinami had their war over control of New Japan

* Choshu sat that out rather than picked sides

* Inoki "won"

* Fujinami did his own thing with the IWGP Title (i.e. trip to the US)

* the belt was gently lifted from Fujinami for the Dome show

 

Around this time, Choshu got an increasing amount of the book...

 

* he personally put over Hash in the IWGP tourney at the Dome

* he treated Fujinami gently in the tourney (losing to eventual winner Vader)

* humored the fuck out of Inoki with the Russian stuff

* let Vader have the long run with the title rather than take it himself

* once he finally got the belt off Vader, it was Choshu who personally put over his old, out of power, physically weakened old rival Fujinami

 

And...

 

* set up Fujinami to be the one facing Flair at the 1991 Dome show for the NWA Title

 

Selfish ego out the door, and instead putting over the top gaijin (Vader), his personal choice for the next generation (Hash), and his rival (Fujinami).

 

Quite a contrast from the olden days.

 

John

Being able to mix a set of guys up v. constant search for meat.

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But guys in JCP got stale or ran out of steam, RnR and Fantastics got booed after a while, Road Warriors went kinda flat after a while, everyone had had enough of Dusty by 1987, Nikita Koloff fizzled, even the Horsemen started to get stale.

 

Let's not pretend JCP were so great at mixing up the guys that they actually overcame the thinness of their roster.

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