WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[jdw]

As for why only Sato is in the Hall, I pressume it's because she lasted longer, was a bigger draw in Dave's eyes, was the better worker of the two (in so far as Dave thought they were good workers) and passed the torch to Yokota. Most probably it's because someone told Dave that Sato was the true star of that era. Ueda retired due to injury, IIRC. It wasn't because of the mandatory retirement rule. I think Beauty Pair should have gone in together, but I don't see the case for the Black Pair though I like both of them as workers. Sato went in in the original class, so Dave must have considered her a decent enough draw. The whole point of drawing is to make money. The Beauty Pair made money. I don't really understand your criteria for drawing.

I don't he fully got the impact of the Beauty Pair at the time. I certainly didn't, other than as the pre-Crush Girls... just not how BIG they were in that context. So take the under credited Beauty Pair then add in Sato being seen as the anchor champ on top for three years.

 

On that trip, Dave did ask a couple of Japanese, people involved with AJW and/or going back in the business to the 70s, about the joshi candidates. That's what he came up with.

 

There hasn't been a lot of pro-Ueda stuff over the years. I'm pretty open to not only asking Dave to get her on the ballot, but also voting for her. Would like to know more. Good short piece on the Pair here:

 

http://www.amyaction.com/ajw_beautypair.html

 

Would love to know more... and have more to point Dave to.

 

The Brothers of course deserve to be in. I'll take some blame for not sending him an e-mail in June to make sure he got on the list.

[Dylan Waco]

If you're a wrestling fan in 1980 and they bring in Patera, do you know who he is? Is he instantly credible to you? Andre is. Dory Funk Jr. is. Billy Graham was, right? Was Patera?

There was never a point during his pre-jail run when Patera wasn't immediately credible when he was brought in.

 

He debuted with the WWF in MSG v. Bruno.

 

He debuted in Oklahoma v. Watts.

 

He was brought into Memphis to work Lawler.

 

He was brought into GA to work Tommy Rich at the height of Rich's popularity in 81.

 

He had matches/feuds farmed out to various territories with Atlas, Andre, Dusty and Backlund.

 

Hell, He was working semi-mains and even some mains v. guys like Billy Graham and Ivan Koloff almost immediately upon his debut.

[Dylan Waco]

John since you are up and in the thread are you up or down on Patera at this point? I know you think he is a viable candidate, but are convinced and if not what would it take?

[Johnny Sorrow]

If you're a wrestling fan in 1980 and they bring in Patera, do you know who he is? Is he instantly credible to you? Andre is. Dory Funk Jr. is. Billy Graham was, right? Was Patera?

That's where the magazines came in to play. Most fans probably read them and were familiar with guys that way.

[Dylan Waco]

Really the magazines are by far the biggest/best promoter not already in. I know John and others want to know more about the role of Apter before they support him, but it really seems silly that PWI isn't represented on some level already. Probably the single most obvious case of a "group" that should be inducted.

[khawk20]

If you're a wrestling fan in 1980 and they bring in Patera, do you know who he is? Is he instantly credible to you? Andre is. Dory Funk Jr. is. Billy Graham was, right? Was Patera?

Most territory guys were somewhat credible when they came in, actually, since a lot of them had been through the area before.

 

Don't underestimate the impact of the magazines back in the days before 1984, either. I got familiar with tons of guys that way before I ever saw them, and when they came into the AWA, I knew who they were if they hadn't been in previously. The mags often added a "must-see" element to the debut of a new guy to the area since their exploits were always protrayed as over-the-top in terms of skill, virtuosity, violence, or villainy.

[JerryvonKramer]

Isn't Apter in already? Assumed he would be. I still don't entirely get his whole deal. Writing a basically kayfabe magazine without official endorsement? How did it work? Did he just make stuff up?

[Matt D]

If you're a wrestling fan in 1980 and they bring in Patera, do you know who he is? Is he instantly credible to you? Andre is. Dory Funk Jr. is. Billy Graham was, right? Was Patera?

Most territory guys were somewhat credible when they came in, actually, since a lot of them had been through the area before.

 

Don't underestimate the impact of the magazines back in the days before 1984, either. I got familiar with tons of guys that way before I ever saw them, and when they came into the AWA, I knew who they were if they hadn't been in previously. The mags often added a "must-see" element to the debut of a new guy to the area since their exploits were always protrayed as over-the-top in terms of skill, virtuosity, violence, or villainy.

 

I've never actually seen a mag from before 84 or so, so I have no idea just what the contents were like.

 

I'm curious about how Patera was presented. Being an Olympian could lead to instant credibility, I suppose. It did with Angle with a lot of crowds: fans, sheets, wrestlers. Character is probably the wrong word but if someone was to sum up 70s Patera in a few words along those lines, how would they? With Bockwinkel, you'd say something like "Experienced Intellectual Wrestler from Beverly Hills."

[khawk20]

Patera got the Olympic bump when he started, but as time went on it seemed to become a component of his "World's Strongest Wrestler" persona.

 

One thing Patera did that helped him was photograph well. Almost every shot where you see him in the Apter mags looks great. He looked the part of super-strong monster heel in the mags before you actually saw him wrestle, and to top it off, the presentation of Patera as a Strongman was offset by the bonus that he could actually wrestle.

 

The Apter mags got a lot of leeway from the promoters with their stories since it was all free publicity, and most guys went along with the sheer ridiculousness of a lot of it simply because it was presented to them as another thing they could point to when finding work in the various territories. The personas that the mags built up added to the mystique of the guys, and you wanted to see them.

 

In a given magazine you would have a ratings page, Apter's column which was the news (running about 6-8 weeks behind actual events, given publishing schedules and such, but still, you didn't ever see most of those areas, so it was news to you), several editor columns which were probably 80% fiction, a rising star or where are they now feature which was at least partially true with respect to content, and then several articles (often uncredited) that were pure fiction, with bold headlines ("Nick Bockwinkel's Dire Warning to Jim Brunzell: 'The Gagnes are going to kill you, boy!'"). Add a readers letters column (probably partly made up, partly real letters), and the infamous Pen pals section that ran for years, plus the odd specialty column/article depending on which magazine it was, and you have the structure for most of the basic Apter/Weston series of magazines.

 

EDIT: Almost forgot Arena Reports, where they would have actual results of shows in various territories, often incomplete, often wrong or vague ("Ken Patera smashed Dino Bravo" is one I remember from some Mid Atlantic results as a kid...even then I asked myself "so what the fuck is the actual result?). These gave you an idea of what matches were going on in the arenas, which you wouldn't know specifically if you didn't get the TV from that area and see the adverts for yourself.

 

Fun reads, and unless you were legit slow you could enjoy them for what they were. The pictures were always great.

 

I'd recommend grabbing an Apter mag off of e-bay sometime from the period of, say, 75-82, to give you a visual idea of the presentation. A seller there by the name of jackstump is worth checking out, I've dealt with him for years and he's very reliable and honest.

[Dylan Waco]

Isn't Apter in already? Assumed he would be. I still don't entirely get his whole deal. Writing a basically kayfabe magazine without official endorsement? How did it work? Did he just make stuff up?

I don't even think Apter was on the ballot until two or three years ago. Weston has never been on the ballot

[JerryvonKramer]

To be honest, what khawk has just described sounds like one of the most fun jobs ever conceived.

[FLIK]

Apter's done a lot of great interviews over the years that go over his history, his ones with Meltzer are always worth checking out. More recently and for those without a WON sub, his interview with Cabana on the AoW podcast last week is awesome as he gives a lot of insight on what he did & didn't do during his career for the magazines that you can credit him for.

 

Writing a basically kayfabe magazine without official endorsement? How did it work? Did he just make stuff up?

Except for the WWF, pretty much all the other territories were really welcoming towards him & the other magazine staff as they were greatful for the publicity, even putting him on tv after a while. As for making up stuff went it varied from case to case, some wrestlers wanted to be actually interviewd, a lot of others didn't care so long as you stuck to the general storyline that was going on.

 

In the AoW interview he tells a great story about Bruno being pissed because someone else at PWI had previously printed a "this is your life" story on him with a lot of inacturate info they just made up like his sister having killed a Nazi so Apter went to him years later and tape recorded an interview that they printed correcting things which made Bruno love him after that.

[khawk20]

To be honest, what khawk has just described sounds like one of the most fun jobs ever conceived.

There was a standard sentence that used to be invoked in nearly every generic article that the Apter mags ever used: "It was a *blank* display of wrestling *blank*.

 

They filled in words in the blanks depending on the wrestler they were describing. Examples:

 

Abdullah the Butcher match: "It was a violent display of wrestling savagery."

 

Rick Martel match: "It was a wonderous display of wrestling virtuosity."

 

Nick Bockwinkel and Bobby Heenan match: "It was an underhanded display of wrestling chicanery."

 

I always had a vision of that line being on a job interview for a writing position on the staff, with candidates being asked to fill in words for a set number of wrestlers listed.

 

It seemed like a good place for writers to go and cut their teeth. The stories with no byline must have been really fun to write for those trained in writing and most jobs writing for real sports being minimal in how much you could embellish a story or idea.

[khawk20]

Except for the WWF, pretty much all the other territories were really welcoming towards him & the other magazine staff as they were greatful for the publicity, even putting him on tv after a while. As for making up stuff went it varied from case to case, some wrestlers wanted to be actually interviewd, a lot of others didn't care so long as you stuck to the general storyline that was going on.

The WWF seemed to be with the program before 1984 dawned. At that point, they started "Victory" magazine and suddenly outside photographers and writers were no longer welcomed at their events. It's why you see WWF guys in non-posed pictures after 1984 in those mags (all action shots), and in those cases you did see posed pics they were from the Archives and would have been taken in another area.

 

Where you noticed it most, though, was when they did full-colour centerfolds in PWI. After 1984, any WWF guys they used photos for were either pics taken from the crowd or really bad cut and pastes onto a colored background.

 

This is also why the Apter mags became very high on the NWA to the point of tangible bias after 1984. They thought that if the WWF did win the promotional war and put everyone else right out of business, they would suffer badly themselves and perhaps also be put out of business. It was in their best interest to proclaim Flair and Martel were better and more relevant champions than Hulk Hogan, that the WWF title was only a regional belt, that Hulk Hogan would be beaten soundly by both guys, etc.

 

It didn't stop them from featuring Hogan on the cover of seemingly every second magazine from 84 onward, however. They weren't anti-WWF to the point that they would sacrifice sales by keeping him off the cover.

[Matt D]

Do you have any copies of Verne Gagne's Pro Wrestling Newsletter or whatever the heck they were calling that in 84. I bet the ASK MR. BRAIN columns were awesome.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've suddenly got an interest in acquiring PWIs from that period. Have they ever been scanned or would I have to go looking for physical copies?

[khawk20]

Do you have any copies of Verne Gagne's Pro Wrestling Newsletter or whatever the heck they were calling that in 84. I bet the ASK MR. BRAIN columns were awesome.

I wish.

[khawk20]

I've suddenly got an interest in acquiring PWIs from that period. Have they ever been scanned or would I have to go looking for physical copies?

There might be scans around but I don't know where they would be.

 

I'd suggest getting one of the big three mags apiece: The Wrestler, Inside Wrestling, and Pro Wrestling Illustrated. For the first two, I'd recommend something from between 1980 and 82. For PWI, get one from mid-1983. 1983 had the best wrestler posters of all time, IMO.

 

After you finish with those, try to get some from after 1984, to see the differences that the WWF freezing them out made to their presentation and their in-mag pictures.

[Matt D]

Do you have any copies of Verne Gagne's Pro Wrestling Newsletter or whatever the heck they were calling that in 84. I bet the ASK MR. BRAIN columns were awesome.

I wish.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Verne-Gagnes-PRO-W...4-/310401938415

 

you missed out!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AWA-Pro-Wrestling-...=item35bf2a3eb5

 

Looks like one is still up there though.

[khawk20]

That one looks to be from the end of 1987/beginning of 1988. No "ask Mr. Brain" in those, unfortunately.

[Ricky Jackson]

It's why you see WWF guys in non-posed pictures after 1984 in those mags (all action shots), and in those cases you did see posed pics they were from the Archives and would have been taken in another area.

I always found it quite comical when PWI would run Hogan circa 1985 photos, with the short-lived NWA TV title/AWA tag titles-looking belt, and sometimes with the white or blue trunks he no longer wore, on covers 4-5 years later.

 

[rzombie1988]

Everyone should give it a few years before going out and buying mass amounts of old magazines. Look at how much has made it online so far and it's not been very long. If I had a commercial scanner, I'd probably get more into it as I have full years of PWI's and over 500 magazines from the 50's on easily.

[Dylan Waco]

Some people prefer having the tangible product in hand.

 

If I'm just doing general research a scan works, but for anything more than that I want the real thing

[JerryvonKramer]

Scans would be preferable for me since it would be research and also my wife would kill me if I started collecting old wrestling mags.

[Matt D]

Scans would be preferable for me since it would be research and also my wife would kill me if I started collecting old wrestling mags.

This is pretty much the boat I'm in too, yes. I just think it's less likely the AWA Newsletter would get scanned than PWIs which have wider appeal and recognition.