Childs Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Things have gotten really sad on that WC thread, with one guy arguing that Sting should get major credit for the "buzz" generated by a theoretical match with the Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 What's next -- HOF points for what could've been if he turned in '96 instead of Hogan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 So, which 3 of Austin, Rock, Benoit, Eddy, Jarrett and Flair said Angle was the best they'd ever been in the ring with? I'm guessing Benoit and Flair with their failing mental capacities, but really I can't see any of the others holding that opinion, unless it was just something they shot off in passing without really thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Wouldn't be at all surprised if Austin praised him that highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 How much should we care what other wrestlers think of other wrestlers? I mean, if you listen to athletes in legit sports talk about their colleagues, everyone sounds like a hall-of-famer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yo-Yo's Roomie Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 In the context of a hall of fame discussion, or even just of forming our own opinions, I don't think we should care at all. I do find it interesting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 I don't think it's an outlandish thing to point to in an HoF discussion, but I can't imagine any scenario in which that should be a determining factor in who you would vote for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Not sure what % but a pretty significant amount of the voters for the WON HOF are current & former wrestlers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Not sure what % but a pretty significant amount of the voters for the WON HOF are current & former wrestlers. I don't mind that so much. I think if you allow athletes/wrestlers to give opinions on their peers off the record or via secret ballot, they'll be mostly fair. Anything said publicly is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Anyone know if Kotetsu Yamamoto was ever on the ballot? Seems like a guy who'd have a case just as a trainer considering he was in charge of the NJPW dojo from the 80's on and all the top lvl guys that came from thear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Never Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLIK Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Just read the short obit Meltzer did on him whear he writes Yamamoto was considered one of the strictest pro wrestling trainers in history, but also the most successful. During his heyday as a coach in the 70s and 80s, almost every wrestler who survived his brutal training sessions ended up being a great worker. He was nicknamed “The Demon coach” for how hard he pushed talent, particularly in the summer where he refused to allow the gym to be air conditioned in sweltering heat and high humidity. The New Japan training system was known as “Hell camp,” for how physically demanding Yamamoto made it. But he trained many of the best wrestlers of the past 30 years including Tatsumi Fujinami, Ultimo Dragon, Killer Khan, Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Jushin Liger, Akira Maeda, Nobuhiko Takada, Kazuo Yamazaki, Kuniaki Kobayashi, Kengo Kimura, Akira Nogami, Satoshi Kojima, Hiroyoshi Tenzan, El Samurai, Shinjiro Otani, Yuji Nagata, Tatsushito Takaiwa, Kazuyuki Fujita, Gran Hamada, Satoru Sayama, Kensuke Sasaki, Masakatsu Funaki, Minoru Suzuki, Keiji Muto, Shinya Hashimoto, Masahiro Chono and many others. Not that many ppl seem to get consideration if their main qualification is training (Yamamoto seemed to have never been more then a mid carder as a wrestler) but i'd figure a guy with that kind of resume could atleast sniff the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditch Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 I highly doubt Ultimo would be in without his role as a trainer, but that's only one part of the case (and he shouldn't have gone in). Yamamoto would be the only one where training would be paramount, though he also has his work as one half of the Yamaha Brothers. If there was like ten times the Yamaha Bro footage, his chances would be much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 How does Yamamoto compare to Diablo Velasco? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted December 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 I highly doubt Ultimo would be in without his role as a trainer, but that's only one part of the case (and he shouldn't have gone in). Yamamoto would be the only one where training would be paramount, though he also has his work as one half of the Yamaha Brothers. If there was like ten times the Yamaha Bro footage, his chances would be much better. I think you can make a very reasonable argument that Stu Hart got in largely because of training. He's a fiat candidate, but I think the perception of Stu was (and still is in many circles) "guy who spawned this family and famously tortured other guys into being good wrestlers." His career as a promoter wasn't really discussed in any real detail until things like Bret's book and Pain and Passion came out. I don't think anyone would really argue he got in purely as a wrestler. It was his stance as a patriarch and trainer that got him in IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted December 29, 2012 Report Share Posted December 29, 2012 Has Butch Reed ever been on the ballot? It's a guy I've never even heard in the HoF discussion, and while I'm not sure I would say he belongs in the HoF, I think he at least deserves a place in the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 This isn't terribly important to me, but does anyone else find it odd that Tommy Young isn't in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 It is odd yes considering he is one of the most high profile refs of all-time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I realize it's not WON HoF season and this is sort of an odd time to be bringing it up, but I am watching all this Puerto Rico so I've been thinking a lot about Colon as a candidate. I have no clue how complete the attendance data is from Puerto Rico, but I do know that PR did pretty massive business on the regular throughout the 80's. Even in 89 the attendance on the shows has been strong and the Colon headlined matches in the 90's have been far from bad (actually relative to what U.S. feds were drawing during same rough period you could argue they were impressive on some level). Of course you can't tell what paid attendance is from looking at a crowd, but you can tell that the crowds are still hot. But I'm not interested in arguing for Colon on the relative strength of post-89 drawing power. I think his resume during his peak as a draw (seems to be late 70's-late 80's) is enough to get him in. I am more interested in getting those not sold and/or critics of Colon as a candidate to compare him with somebody who is in and who I think most of us believe should be in. I mentioned the comparison to Backlund earlier almost flippantlly because one of the big knocks on Colon was that he was only a star/draw one place and meant little to nothing elsewhere. It's fair to say I sold Bob in St. Louis and perhaps other places (Toronto for one) short, but it was a more general criticism of the "have to be a major draw more than one place" viewpoint that I think is a generally good idea, but has clear exceptions. The person who I would like to see critics of Colon compare him to is Onita. First things first - I really like Onita. I think his act is very expressive, I think he was a great promoter, I think he was a perfect wrestler and figurehead for what he was pushing. I think what he did in managing to turn an indy with far fewer resources into a promotion that could consistently draw well and draw huge a few times a year (for matches with him in the main event more often than not) is really incredible and I don't know if it will ever be replicated. I think you can make an argument that Onita had a big influence on broader wrestling landscape going forward. I think Onita should be in WON HoF. What I am not sure about is why Onita should be in but not Colon. I understand the promotional dynamics are different - Colon had an island to himself and FMW was one of many promotions in Japan. On the other hand the peak of FMW as a major promotion seems to have coincided with the hottest point for wrestling in Japanese history. At Onita's peak FMW shows did better than just about any shows on earth and larger numbers than Colon's biggest shows. Having said that at Colon's peak his shows did better than just about any shows on earth and he appears to have had more big shows a year on average than FMW ever did. WWC also had a longer peak period as a company with Colon on top. Colon was not as influential as Onita, but in watching WWC it's impossible to ignore the fact that in many respects the FMW formula was established in WWC first. I think it would be wrong to argue that Colon and WWC weren't influential - they were. It's just that there influence wasn't nearly as broad as Onita/FMW's. As workers I enjoy both guys, but don't think either is an HoF level in ring performer. Having said that - and perhaps this is just because it's fresher in my mind - I think Colon was the better worker. I don't think Onita has anything like the Hansen feud, and I think in many ways Onita was a second generation copy of Colon. I'm interested if I am misreading this when I say that I think Colon is at least lateral to Onita as a candidate. This is not meant as a "gotcha" comparison, but a serious one that I would like to see people add to. If there are flaws in my thinking I'd be more than willing to have them pointed out to me as I haven't read Bahu's big FMW write up in some time and unfortunately I only have attendance/results listings for the biggest of the WWC cards. I just hope the arguments can stay away from "Death of Brody" and I hope they don't consist entirely of "Puerto Rico is Puerto Rico." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Ha, I assumed Colon was already in the WON HOF. When I first started buying the mags in 1984, the Napolitano WRESTLING ALL STARS mags told me that Carlos Colon was a World Champion on the same level as Hogan, Flair, and Martel. So I always have that working in my heart and head. First impressions are huge re: wrestling when you were 14. And since the only time I saw him was the Starrcade 83 match with Abby clipped on the PWI Lords of The Ring tape and I loved it, he always felt like this legend I'll never see much of. I'm geeking at watching some of the matches Dylan's found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I remember seeing Colon as a youngster in the 1993 Royal Rumble. Seemed to have a lot of potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I remember seeing Colon as a youngster in the 1993 Royal Rumble. Seemed to have a lot of potential. He was spry like a 2008 Jimmy Snuka or 1991 Tony Atlas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Question: how much can being "a TV star" replace being a proven draw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I don't understand the question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 My best guess: Ratings instead of crowds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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