Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ok, that's great. And yes, I see the argument for Eddy not being a lifetime achievement award. He was one of the most over guys in the company at the time. But if Benoit was "something different", I'd like for him to explain what exactly that means. Should we be downplaying the Hispanic audience here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I am so confused. How am I doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ok, that's great. And yes, I see the argument for Eddy not being a lifetime achievement award. He was one of the most over guys in the company at the time. But if Benoit was "something different", I'd like for him to explain what exactly that means. I think it's worth remembering that people in WWE management thought Eddy could be the Latino Stone Cold Steve Austin before winning the belt. He was such a real ratings mover. Benoit winning had more to do with Triple H wanting to boost his number of title victories than a reward for Benoit. Someone who was good enough to hold the belt, but not be perceived as a bigger star than the son-in-law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I am so confused. How am I doing that? Just in that we keep talking about him being most over and only one person mentioned the latino base (especially for smackdown). I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, mind you, but still. I think that has to be one of the first things mentioned with Eddy. Was Benoit a draw in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Not to the casual fan degree Bret Hart was, but that was a different era. Would still say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 He was a solidly popular wrestler in Canada. Probably no different than the popularities of Owen, Jericho, Edge, Christian, Trish, etc. (Each person in that group was pretty interchangeable as far as popularity goes.) For what it's worth, I think it's fair to say the events of June 22-25, 2007 got the same mainstream press up here as the events of May 23, 1999 did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I always saw Benoit's championship reign as being kinda similar to Rob Van Dam's. Neither were much of a mainstream draw, but both were usually incredibly over with the people in the building (which differed from town to town, depending on how smarky the locals were). Both lacked good opponents, outside of rematches for the belt. Both were a little bit of an experiment, "let's throw this in the water and see if it swims" sort of thing. And both were very much not the primary focus of the company at the time, which had other Stuff To Do while the championship was defended in the semi-main. Would any of this Lifetime Achievement talk be happening if not for the moment at the end of Mania XX where the two best friends celebrated with the belts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Foley was involved in top angles for almost a year when he won the belt. I don't see that as a lifetime achievement award. No way did I see it at the time. Not Eddy either. He was getting really over and the depth of the roster was starting to thin. By October, November 03 you could see he was definitely going to get pushed to the top. But I was still sort of shocked to see him beat Lesnar simply because I just thought they would never go through with it. I could see Benoit because he was in the midcard most of 03 until the end of the year when they just turned a switch and had him challenging Lesnar and then doing the whole angle with Heyman. I remember reading they we're going to use Heyman to get him over. To be honest his title win felt like a "gold watch" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I realize the World title is different, but would Christian or Henry's reigns be considered "gold watch" moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Jericho himself has called Benoit's reign a lifetime achievement award. I'm fairly certain he said that in his book. I do agree that calling Eddy's time on top that isn't valid. Nor is Foley's, for that matter. He served an actual business purpose and became a draw in his own right. They didn't need to put the belt on him to draw or anything like that, but he was the guy who was used to keep Austin and Rock apart until the Wrestlemania build kicked in. Him being champion served a practical purpose other than to say, "Thanks, Mick." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Do you put the guy who's just getting the belt for a Lifetime Achievement Award over at Wrestlemania 20 though? I know that it wasn't the top match on the card build-wise or draw-wise, but still. I do think the title meant more back then for Wrestlemania than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I always saw Benoit's championship reign as being kinda similar to Rob Van Dam's. Neither were much of a mainstream draw, but both were usually incredibly over with the people in the building (which differed from town to town, depending on how smarky the locals were). Both lacked good opponents, outside of rematches for the belt. Both were a little bit of an experiment, "let's throw this in the water and see if it swims" sort of thing. And both were very much not the primary focus of the company at the time, which had other Stuff To Do while the championship was defended in the semi-main. Would any of this Lifetime Achievement talk be happening if not for the moment at the end of Mania XX where the two best friends celebrated with the belts? To be fair, RVD's title win and brief run (as well as the build to the Cena match) could be argued as a means to kick off the ECW brand at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I realize the World title is different, but would Christian or Henry's reigns be considered "gold watch" moments. I'd add Kane's too that as well. Hell, if you watched that Top 50 Superstars doc, Cena moreless says that about Kane's title win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Do you put the guy who's just getting the belt for a Lifetime Achievement Award over at Wrestlemania 20 though? I know that it wasn't the top match on the card build-wise or draw-wise, but still. I do think the title meant more back then for Wrestlemania than it does now. It did. Angle was really the first guy to become champ where he was second or third from the top. Jericho, Benoit and others would follow, and it still happens to this day. It happened with Bret and Shawn in 1997 (Bret actually went from being the top heel to the #2 heel immediately after winning the WWF title), but there were extenuating circumstances there, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 There may have been a degree of lifetime achievement with Benoit, but I think it was more a case of them needing someone to keep the belt warm until Orton and Batista were ready to be elevated. HHH had gone through the entire Raw roster, so they brought in a top guy from Smackdown for fresh matchups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 In Excel arena about to see the wrestling, lots of Americans around. Lots of Iranians too I'm watching online. Always interesting to see good amateur wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I think people are underestimating Benoit here. He was incredibly over with the crowd, often more than anyone else on the show. His pops were huge, he could work a good match with pretty much anyone, they needed a fresh face at the top. I think he was sort of ruined by not going one on one with Shawn at Backlash - the crowd absolutely despised Michaels that night and were ridiculously behind Benoit. HHH was just a distraction to the real story. A clean win over HBK would have really kept the momentum going. And to call his title win simply a 'gold watch' assumes that there were other, more attractive options at the time to hold the belt. The opposite is true - the only potential title holders on Raw at that time were; Triple-H (had pretty much had the strap for two years, stale) HBK (didn't work a full schedule) Booker-T (never really considered a top guy by management) RVD (backstage issues) Kane (stale to the point where he wasn't a legitimate guy who could carry the company) Chris Jericho (first title reign considered a failure) Randy Orton (too young, too early) He was crazy over, he could work, he was loyal - clearly the best candidate at the time to bring some freshness to the belt. If anything felt forced it was Mysterio's reign in 2006 - everybody knew he wouldn't have got anywhere near the title if it hadn't been for Eddie dying and the story of him 'doing it for my friend'. There are parallels, too, in that he was only allowed to beat truly top guys in a triple threat environment. I don't think either Guerrero, Benoit or Mysterio ever got a clean win against a truly top guy. Of the three it was Benoit who was pushed the most in his tenure - The Rock tapped to him more than once as did Kurt Angle, Trips, Shawn etc. I don't think HBK or HHH would have gone down to Guerrero, which is why I think Benoit's reign was far from just a 'golden watch'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Didn't Edge come back the night after Mania? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Not the night after, but a couple of weeks. He came back the night of the draft and speared Bischoff when it was announced he was drafted to Raw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 So what makes Benoit different from Ron Garvin in 1987? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 They let Benoit wrestle on TV when he had the belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 I have Garvin wrestling on TV with the belt. That's one of those things that has been repeated so many times that people believe it when it's not really true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 The crowd never turned on him during his title run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yes, that is a difference. But the point is that calling Benoit's title run a lifetime achievement award is not incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Alright, well this place exists to clear up false talking points, so thanks. It always amazed me how over Ronnie was in front of the studio audience. WAY before the 87 run too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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