Loss Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think it would be a great project to compile all of this into a narrative. Talk about the origins of tape trading in wrestling, star ratings, PWI, fan clubs, sheets, the Philly audience, ECW, the Internet, the impact all of this has had on promotions, etc. I think there's an interesting story to be told by weaving all of that together. Would be something cool for someone to take on. Just throwing it out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I can certainly throw in my two cents on the Philly scene of the mid-80's, the fan attitudes, the NWA/ WWF promoting war all from the perspective of a 15-17 yearold. And I also bought every Apter mag from 84-86. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 One thing that comes to mind: How prevalent were smart fans pre-1980s? Basically I ask this because of something I noticed years ago while watching the Rogers vs O'Conner NWA title match from Comiskey Park in 1961. During the match, in the second or third row facing the camera, there are two teenage/early-20s young men passionately rooting on heel Rogers. Everyone else around them seems to be solidly behind O'Conner, the babyface. The two men are kinda nerdy-looking, in many ways the stereotype of the smark/smart fan. Ever since watching the match I've wondered if those two guys were the 50s/60s equivalent of smart fans/heel fans/smarks. Anyway, I'm guessing hardcore wrestling fandom developed in a modest fashion by at least the 50s---through fan clubs, pen pals, maybe even zines or early newsletters---much like comic book fandom emerged during the same time. There has probably always been "heel fans" to some degree, but it seems cheering the heel really became a cool thing in certain circles in the late-70s during the heyday of Superstar Graham and a young Flair. I'm interested to see what emerges from this thread, as it's different from talking about the same wrestlers and territories over and over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I can certainly throw in my two cents on the Philly scene of the mid-80's, the fan attitudes, the NWA/ WWF promoting war all from the perspective of a 15-17 yearold. And I also bought every Apter mag from 84-86. Philadelphia was obviously a big city for both the NWA and the WWF. Was the difference in demographics of the people who attended each shows the obvious kind, or is there anything that may surprise us now? Were there "regulars" who attended both NWA and WWF shows, where you remember seeing some of the same faces over and over? What is the first time you remember the heels getting cheered there? What was the difference in atmosphere between the two shows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 I don't think you have to be smart to the business to cheer heels. We talked about that in another thread where people rooted for Wile E. Coyote to catch the Roadrunner when they were kids. I think some people just have the personality to cheer for the bad guys. And if you look at popular culture around the late 70s, the bad boys started to become cool. Wolverine, Dirty Harry, the Oakland Raiders, Mad Max, etc. were all emerging and drawing in people. So it seems natural that it would make people more prone to cheering for heels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 Maybe a separate topic worth discussing, but let's keep this thread more focused on the topic at hand if we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Philadelphia was obviously a big city for both the NWA and the WWF. Was the difference in demographics of the people who attended each shows the obvious kind, or is there anything that may surprise us now? Were there "regulars" who attended both NWA and WWF shows, where you remember seeing some of the same faces over and over? What is the first time you remember the heels getting cheered there? What was the difference in atmosphere between the two shows? Well, first of all it's important to describe the differences between the Spectrum, where the WWF ran shows, and the Philly Civic Center, where the NWA/ Crockett promoted. The Spectrum was a huge building, your typical Hockey/ Basketball arena that was three levels plus the floor. It was part of the Philly Sports complex of the day that also included the Vet and JFK Stadium and easily accessible from I-95. The Civic Center was located deep in the heart of town and was a lot smaller. It had only floor seats and one large level of seats above. The Civic Center NWA crowd was not full of little kids, mainly teenagers and adults. The WWF crowds had far more youngsters with their families. Also, the NWA shows attracted far more African Americans than the WWF. The NWA crowd was generally more "adult". The Civic Center was smoky, smelled like stale beer, and had a far more "rough" aura than the Spectrum and the crowds reflected that. As far as regulars go, I can't really say if the WWF shows had a lot of them. I'm sure they did but the place was so big and the crowds so big that I don't recall seeing the same people repeatedly. The Spectrum also was very strict on having you sit in your assigned seat. Now, The Civic Center TOTALLY had regulars, me and my pal Joey among them. You'd always see the same people, from the drug dealer/ scalpers in the parking garage, to the chick who sold merchandise and hosted a local radio show about wrestling, to "The Black Nature Boy", (not Scoot Andrews), a brother who'd dress up like Flair at every show and walk around the Arena going "WOOOO!". The atmosphere at the Civic Center always felt a little crazy, which is why we loved it. We were WWF Fans as well, but there was a disconnect of sorts as it was such a huge, well produced show where as the Crockett shows felt more gritty. As far as people only going to one or the other? Well, if they were running different dates we at least would try to go to both. When they ran head to head, we'd usually go to the NWA show, but if the WWF show was stacked or had some matches we wanted to see we'd go to the Spectrum. We also preferred the Civic Center because our folks would usually drop us off and go do something in the city, and then pick us up after the show. At the Civic Center we could get served beer despite being 16, and you could smoke weed in the upper level. Hey, just being honest. As far as the whole "heels getting cheers in Philly" thing goes, I'm sure that started when Backlund was champ, long before I was going to shows. But it was more prevalent at the NWA shows. And it wasn't because guys were heels that they'd get cheers. It was if they seemed "cool". For instance, Tully Blanchard would get booed out of the building, but Flair was ALWAYS super popular, especially with the African American audience. I watched Starrcade 87 Chi-Town Heat there on closed circuit and when Flair won the belt back the place was going fucking bonkers. But the Road Warriors also were really popular, as were Magnum TA, Jimmy Valiant, and Ron Bass of all people during his face turn. Luger was really popular, and so was Nikita. Man, Nikita was SUPER popular as a heel, while Ivan and Krusher were hated. Rude and Fernandez were insanely over with the crowd during their brief run, and when Jimmy Garvin officially turned face there the roof came off. Over at the Spectrum, the only heels I remember getting cheers were Savage and The Hart Foundation. Oh and Orndorff had a lot of fans during his feud with Hogan. I saw them in a cage match and the crowd was 60/40 for Hogan. However, when we saw Hogan fight Killer Khan, I'm positive that the only two people cheering Khan and booing Hogan were Joey and me. Which led to me getting loogied on by a grown man a few rows above me after Hogan won. Many years later, when WCW was just about to explode with the NWO, they ran one last show at the Civic Center. My wife at the time and I went so I could see one last show there and say goodbye. The place seemed so much smaller than it did when I was a teenager. I love Philly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Awesome post. Thanks Johnny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 great post johnny. Is this thread for anyones fan history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 No, this is more for the history of hardcore wrestling fans. Feel free to start a thread about that topic, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Does the crazy old lady who sat in the front row at Portland shows and got all bent out of shape whenever Buddy Rose would pull an opponent's hair or mouth off in the late 70s/early 80s count as a hardcore fan? I particularly enjoy whenever she gets out of her seat, starts pounding on the ring, and has to be gently reminded by a fat security guard to sit back down. The crazy old lady fans who legitimately went nuts on the heels probably don't fit the definition of a hardcore fan that Loss laid out in the original post, but it'd still be fun to turn back the clock and talk wrestling with some of these ladies. I could just picture someone like my grandmother summarizing the previous night's local card while having a few drinks and getting all wound up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFTV Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 You can't go wrong reading John Hitchcock's thoughts from the Front Row Section D at the Greensboro Coliseum in the 80s! http://www.tvparty.com/80swrestling/index.html Growing up in Detroit in the 80s we had the Coach Kurt Wrestling Hotline that was 50 cents a call where he would dish all of the inside wrestling scoops. By the early 90s creepy ML Curly had his hotline for the Detroit News that he would update once to twice a day which was by far the most popular hotline the Detroit News had. By the late 90s there were a ton of wrestling hotlines in Detroit as everyone figured out there was a voicemail system that had the telephone exchange 438 which allowed people to record up to 10 minutes of audio on 4 different mailboxes. Did any of you live in other areas that had so many different options for pay/free wrestling hotlines back in the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 The Calgary phone book/Yellow Pages back in the 90s had a free wrestling news weekly update service (there were also weeky updates for soap operas, sports, celebrity gossip, etc). I think the update was done by some guy from Toronto, but I'm not sure, and most big Canadian cities probably had an equivalent at the time. The news was taken directly from the Observer IIRC, with Meltzer receiving credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 There was a free wrestling hotline in Charleston starting right around the beginning of the Nitro Era. Mooneyham has had a column in the local paper here since around 88 or so IIRC so it was possible to get relatively timely news here every week regardless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackToBionic Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 The Calgary phone book/Yellow Pages back in the 90s had a free wrestling news weekly update service (there were also weeky updates for soap operas, sports, celebrity gossip, etc). I think the update was done by some guy from Toronto, but I'm not sure, and most big Canadian cities probably had an equivalent at the time. The news was taken directly from the Observer IIRC, with Meltzer receiving credit. We had the exact same deal in Jacksonville. You called a number, then entered an extension for horoscopes, soap operas etc. One was wrestling and I probably called that religiously (think it updated twice a week...Tues & Fri maybe?) from 1996 until I finally got a home computer in 2000. Even then it was still going though. In 97 I started using Skytel lines for wrestling info and unearthed an entire network of wrestling fans that went back and forth for a year or 2, when the highly illegal operation (the lines were stolen by use of phone hacking) was shut down. One of the people on there was the future Chris Masters. I was friendly with his group of friends and still have tapes of him backyard wrestling in a Shawn Michaels gimmick. Well actually he just wrestled AS Shawn Michaels because almost every kid just assumed an already established wrestling personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Dave started using star ratings in the 1984 yearbook (January 1985 issue I believe) with a UWF tag from his December 1984 trip to Japan being the first official match to receive 5 stars. In describing the star rating system, he credits Jim Cornette and his childhood friend, Norm Dooley with creating it. I find this interesting because Cornette is from Louisville and Norm was from New Albany, Indiana, both of which are in my backyard. I've heard Cornette talk about him watching matches with Norm and saying it deserved five stars as a take off on the movie rating system that only went to four. As far as Newsletters, The Observer began with the 1982 yearbook while the Torch's first issue was October 1987. I once heard a story of a young Wade Keller seeing a copy of the Observer at a wrestling show and being totally fascinated with it. This supposedly sparked his idea to create his own. However, newsletters were around LONG before the observer as Dave has pointed out many times. I believe Mike Tenay had his own newsletter. There was also MatchWatch with Steve Beverly IIRC, and Grant Zwarych (sp?) who is authorized by Dave to sell old issues of the WON even sells the "California Wrestling Report" which was written by a young Dave Meltzer in the late 1970's. Paul Heyman started as a photographer and putting together "fanzine's" before becoming the editor of Wrestling Power Magazine at the age of 19. Wrestling Eye Magazine (I want to say published by Norm Jacobs) was one of the first magazines I saw that broke kayfabe and gave insider information, albeit sometimes incorrect (once stating Shane Douglas was the real life younger brother of Paul Orndorff, although Terry Orndorff was a name Shane used early in his career). This was around the late 1980's. Another magazine that popped up in the early 90's was New Wave Wrestling and it was more like a magazine version of the WON. Looking back, I'd wager the majority of his material was taken directly from Dave because he would list incorrect real names as Dave sometimes did. The "Apter Mags" published by Stanley Weston that were most prevalent were Pro Wrestling Illustrated (Sept 1979 first issue), The Wrestler and Inside Wrestling (which I *think* began around October 1966) and Sports Review Wrestling, which also preceded PWI. Before that was Wresting Revue and Ring Magazine that I believe sometimes wrote about wrestling -- those go back to the 50's. I would assume tape trading began around the mid 1970's and exploded when the WON and some magazines began publishing the names and wants of fans from around the US. Looking back in those issues, its fun to see names that would go on to be known pro wrestlers, managers, etc. in those ads such as Blue Meanie, Dave Prazak, etc. Before VHS trading, I think there was also audio cassette trading that guys would record promos, etc from their local TV shows and trade them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 Wrestling Eye was an interesting magazine. It seems like I only sporadically bought (had my dad buy me) an issue here and there. I think it was only availabe at certain stores in Calgary, whereas the Apter mags were everywhere. I remember it for its colour photos and more serious articles, for example a piece on Superstar Graham's career, detailing his personal struggles, that pre-dated the WWE DVD and book by twenty years (can't remember how kayfabed it was, though). Also, they once printed an article that exposed which wrestlers were legitimately related, which blew my young mind with the revelation that Randy Savage and Lanny Poffo were brothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasch Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 My path to hardcore fandom came through buying ECW tapes from RF ads in PWI. From there I discovered the Observer, and the rest is history. I bought alot of VHS tapes from that guy a $20 a pop. *smh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFTV Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 My path to hardcore fandom came through buying ECW tapes from RF ads in PWI. From there I discovered the Observer, and the rest is history. I bought alot of VHS tapes from that guy a $20 a pop. *smh* I bought 3 tapes that featured 2 different ECW Cards for 20 bucks a pop from Ian Rotten at an Insane Championship Wrestling Card in Detroit in like 1996 which was around the time ECW got on PASS which was the regional sports network in Detroit before Fox Sports Detroit took over. I too remember those free Skytel hotlines. Wasn't there a guy who called himself Lord and Icon? Also someone named Sushi X who did one too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackToBionic Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 I too remember those free Skytel hotlines. Wasn't there a guy who called himself Lord and Icon? Also someone named Sushi X who did one too? Sushi X was the number that introduced me to the Skytel network. I think he advertised on some wrestling website that would have been popular around 1997. Possibly something simple like wrestling.com because I didn't even own a computer...just used one at a friend's house. I called his number enough and at the end he would "plug" other lines and eventually someone had a contest to win a free line, which I won and found out how to hack them and there were, no exaggeration, at least 300 other wrestling fans who had a line or two. They were from every corner of the US and then I'd say about 20% of the people were Canadian. And the other guy, I believe was actually called Lord Nikon (but a pun on Lord and Icon). He was probably the 2nd or 3rd line I ever called and maybe the most remembered as he seemed to have a quick jump on all the news, was very rarely wrong and updated his number constantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 My path to hardcore fandom came through buying ECW tapes from RF ads in PWI. From there I discovered the Observer, and the rest is history. I bought alot of VHS tapes from that guy a $20 a pop. *smh* I used to pick up whatever obscure wrestling magazines I could find as the Apter mags were in every grocery and book store at the time. I grabbed a "Wrestling All-Stars" (I think that was the title) and it had ads for the Torch and Observer. The Torch offered $5 free trial subscriptions so I chose them. I didn't understand 3/4 of what I read until I found glossaries on some old Geocities sites. Our local newspaper had one of those pre-recorded news phone lines in the 90s and there was a wrestling option updated by Blackjack Brown every Sunday and Wednesday night. It didn't go deep behind the curtain but did provide plenty of information on upcoming storylines and TV taping results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I would highly reccomend Chad Dell's "Revenge of Hatpin Mary". http://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Hatpin-Mary-...l/dp/0820472700 It's clearly a dissertation that's turned into a book. Books are written very differently from dissertations and there is stuff both lost and gained in the translation. If someone's actually interested, it might be worth tracking down the actual dissertation. I would second the reccomendation of Hitchcock's stuff at the TV party web site. I'd also reccomend Lee Benaka's interviews with Meltzer, Keller and Goodhart. http://www.deathvalleydriver.com/Benaka/benakaindex.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWOOD Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Aside from the Sun Media hotlines in Canada that have already been touched on and shows like Off the Record in Canada there was also the weekly wrestling column in the Sunday Sun paper here for as long as I can remember. I can recall an almost explosion of wrestling websites in mid-1997. When people talk about an "IWC" or whathaveyou now I laugh and think back to those times. Personally my hardcore wrestling fandom began with the discovery of the Other Arena. It deserves a shout out in this discussion. I gained so much knowledge from the people there, some of which I'm still learning from today (hi jdw). Its fantasy booking section got me into creative writing which helped me stay afloat during high school truthfully. I even used a guy from my high schools namesake in the fWo, which is apparently a character that went on to be the fWo commissioner or something after it was out of my control. I remember writing for prowrestling.com (then known as the Internet Wrestling Zone, har har) when I was a tween and insisting that the webmaster run a banner ad for tOA above my column. He didn't like it too much haha. Maybe more concerning is I wrote for prowrestling.com as a tween. Either way, tOA will always have a special place in my mind and heart. This might not be right on topic but there were a few people who I traded tapes with in Ottawa as a kid but I definitely had the biggest collection that I knew of at the time. There was an indy video rental store in Ottawa whose owners I assume were huge wrestling fans because the whole back wall of the store (minus the employee enterance) was devoted to WWF and WCW/NWA titles dating back to 1984. It was an amazing selection with pretty much every pay per view you could possibly want during that time as well as all of those classic "Best of the WWF" volumes and all the other goodies from Coloseium that I wish I had more time to bootleg before the store closed up shop in favor of a Rockin' Johnnys Diner sometime before the millenium celebration. There was never a fire sale and Ive since lost 97% of the tapes to theives et all. Very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Its fantasy booking section got me into creative writing which helped me stay afloat during high school truthfully. I even used a guy from my high schools namesake in the fWo, which is apparently a character that went on to be the fWo commissioner or something after it was out of my control. fWo was really cool and fun and challenging at it's peak. Lots of folks contributing, and Travis was Travis in making things great for people. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Is this thread for anyones fan history? No, this is more for the history of hardcore wrestling fans. Feel free to start a thread about that topic, though. Six months later. But is that still a viable invitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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