MJH Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Atlas is crazy. Racism in wrestling is so deep and wide that I'm amazed anyone ever tries to claim it doesn't exist. The sheer lack of non-white world champions is the easiest example to point at, of course. We only had this thread a few months ago, but the question that you have to ask is, how many strong candidates were there? Now, of course, there's also the idea that black athletes weren't attracted to pro wrestling because of that, but, unless there are multiple clear instances were a black guy who was obviously a star waiting to happen was held back, you can't really tie it down to 'racism'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Watts in his interview talked about running Mid-South. The old promoter Leroy McGuirk came to one of the shows and complained that there were too many "n-words on the card and in the crowd" which pissed Watts off quite a bit. But look at the WWE. The Rock is the only black man to have held the WWE Championship. If you throw the world title in there, you can add in Booker T. And if you really want to break it down. Of the WCW/WWE/TNA/NWA World Titles. Vince Russo has put World Titles on the Rock, Booker T and Ron Killings. That's pretty much the entire list of guys minus Bobo Brazil and Ron Simmons. That's really just pathetic that one guy can claim 3/5 for their first world championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Watts in his interview talked about running Mid-South. The old promoter Leroy McGuirk came to one of the shows and complained that there were too many "n-words on the card and in the crowd" which pissed Watts off quite a bit. But look at the WWE. The Rock is the only black man to have held the WWE Championship. If you throw the world title in there, you can add in Booker T. And if you really want to break it down. Of the WCW/WWE/TNA/NWA World Titles. Vince Russo has put World Titles on the Rock, Booker T and Ron Killings. That's pretty much the entire list of guys minus Bobo Brazil and Ron Simmons. That's really just pathetic that one guy can claim 3/5 for their first world championship. Also, Lashley held world titles as well as Henry, who just had a reign. WWE/WWECW/WWE World, doesn't matter. I think there's been a reasonable amount of black people who have held the title personally. Don't know who else you want really. Ahmed Johnson? Shelton Benjamin? Mabel? Look at how many asian people have held the world title. Big fat 0 there. Let's not even go into White minorities or other minorities who haven't held titles in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Number of World champs is the wrong metric to look at. The better metric is number of participants in the business and that is where the figures are really astounding as their are far fewer black wrestlers than you would expect both based on their percentage of the population and their respective numbers in other athletic and entertainment fields. The reason seems pretty obvious - wrestling was a good old boys network and "those people" weren't going to get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't know of guys you could've put belts on over the years. I do think it's ridiculous that there are world titles with 40-50 year lineages and they have one or two guys on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Number of World champs is the wrong metric to look at. The better metric is number of participants in the business and that is where the figures are really astounding as their are far fewer black wrestlers than you would expect both based on their percentage of the population and their respective numbers in other athletic and entertainment fields. The reason seems pretty obvious - wrestling was a good old boys network and "those people" weren't going to get in. I actually think that number has gotten worse since the 80s and 90s. Back to Watts, he talked about this in the same interview. He thought it was business exposing to have so many successful black athletes in other sports and almost zero in wrestling. It's why he made such an effort to bring in as many black talents as he could and push them. I was thinking of the promotions that I actively watch and NWA Anarchy has probably been the most racially diverse promotion I've watched the last several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't know of guys you could've put belts on over the years. I do think it's ridiculous that there are world titles with 40-50 year lineages and they have one or two guys on the list.What about asian wrestlers though? 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 NWA World Title has Baba, Fujinami, Chono, Muto, Hashimoto and Ogawa. AWA had Jumbo. WWE had Inoki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 AWA had Jumbo. And Saito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I thought I was forgetting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Number of World champs is the wrong metric to look at. The better metric is number of participants in the business and that is where the figures are really astounding as their are far fewer black wrestlers than you would expect both based on their percentage of the population and their respective numbers in other athletic and entertainment fields. The reason seems pretty obvious - wrestling was a good old boys network and "those people" weren't going to get in. That. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think Atlas is thinking backward. The most glaring instance to me is Ranger Ross talking about how he was denied a spot, I think with Crockett, when he was told they already had a black guy in the roster. And that's in the late 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think Atlas is thinking backward. The most glaring instance to me is Ranger Ross talking about how he was denied a spot, I think with Crockett, when he was told they already had a black guy in the roster. And that's in the late 80's. That sort of thinking still exists in a lot of media. Hence the "token" black character. I know that in television news, there's an idea that you need to diversify with your reporter and anchor staff. You don't want to have "too many" of a given race, though. We had two Asian girls on our staff (one Chinese, one Korean) and viewers always got them mixed up. Now, I do work in Kentucky, but it's still a little ridiculous. It's something that no news director would come right out and say, but it plays into their hiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 NWA World Title has Baba, Fujinami, Chono, Muto, Hashimoto and Ogawa. AWA had Jumbo. WWE had Inoki Inoki's wasn't recognized, so he doesn't count. Jumbo and Saito are good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Inoki has been recognized on and off. It really depends on their mood on a given day really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Inoki has been recognized on and off. It really depends on their mood on a given day really.But he wasn't when it was important. It's equivalent to the new AWA recognizing Hogan as a former champion. Yes, that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I can't imagine Vince going with Slaughter. Yes, Slaughter was a hardcore fan favorite back then. But vince was totally willing to ignore the hardcores. Slaughter is the exact opposite of Vince's propaganda of moving away from blue collar smoke filled auidences. Its not that Slaughter is limited due to jingoistic appeal. He can be effective in more than "U.S.A." chanting stuff. Faces who embody a tough rugged blue collar value of enduring hardship are a staple in wrestling. But I don't think Vince has ever shown either an interest or ability to book them. I can't imagine Mcmahon ever being able to book Flair goes to Blackjack Mulligan's farm or Arn and Windham beat up tires. That's not the image of prowrestling that Vince either knows how or is interested in presenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The problem is timing. Slaughter was still working as a Heel at the time when Vince set his mind on Hogan. In fact, Slaughter was still working as a heel all through the end of 1983... into 1984 before the face turn on Sheik. So on one side you have someone who has been a monster babyface in the AWA, the primary promotion you must defeat to "win" going national. This monster babyface is larger than life, has some mainstream aspects, and is a proven draw. On the other side, you have a guy who has been a heel for years. With Slaughter you would have to hope you could turn him face, and it get over so strongly that he could anchor your massive national expansion plans for several years. This at a time when No WWWF/WWF anchor babyface champion had *ever* done a heel-to-face turn in the WWWF/WWF territory. It's not just that Hogan was the obvious choice for Vince, so obvious that we find it impossible to find another person at the time who could have done with Vince what Hogan was able to do with Vince. It's that folks are trying to project onto Slaughter things that *may* possibly have become known later in 1984 that simply could not have been foreseen in 1983. It's beyond a reach. We could toss out Snuka, but by the time Vince put his mind to Hogan, he knew that Snuka was a murderer with a monsterous drug problem that was actually a Problem (as opposed to the problems Vince and Hogan had in the 80s where they were perfectly functional). You have to think that Vince was concerned that if Snuka was the National Anchor to Expansion that the name Nancy Argentino would be extremely hard to avoid. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 But what if he got Dusty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 For what Vince wanted to promote nationally, Dusty wouldn't have worked. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 The problem is timing. Slaughter was still working as a Heel at the time when Vince set his mind on Hogan. In fact, Slaughter was still working as a heel all through the end of 1983... into 1984 before the face turn on Sheik. So on one side you have someone who has been a monster babyface in the AWA, the primary promotion you must defeat to "win" going national. This monster babyface is larger than life, has some mainstream aspects, and is a proven draw. On the other side, you have a guy who has been a heel for years. With Slaughter you would have to hope you could turn him face, and it get over so strongly that he could anchor your massive national expansion plans for several years. This at a time when No WWWF/WWF anchor babyface champion had *ever* done a heel-to-face turn in the WWWF/WWF territory. It's not just that Hogan was the obvious choice for Vince, so obvious that we find it impossible to find another person at the time who could have done with Vince what Hogan was able to do with Vince. It's that folks are trying to project onto Slaughter things that *may* possibly have become known later in 1984 that simply could not have been foreseen in 1983. It's beyond a reach. We could toss out Snuka, but by the time Vince put his mind to Hogan, he knew that Snuka was a murderer with a monsterous drug problem that was actually a Problem (as opposed to the problems Vince and Hogan had in the 80s where they were perfectly functional). You have to think that Vince was concerned that if Snuka was the National Anchor to Expansion that the name Nancy Argentino would be extremely hard to avoid. John Getting Slaughter to win the title from Backlund in December 1983, and then get him into the Iron Sheik feud around the same time it actually happened, to turn him while he was holding the belt *might* have done it. I would argue that the Sheik-Slaughter feud might have even been hotter if the title was included in the mix. All Vince would have had to do was delay his expansion plans by 6 months or so. Slaughter-Sheik would have been a helluva main event to debut with in Minneapolis, or Chicago, or wherever else they wanted to begin their expansion drive. Could it be sustained after Sheik? That is another question entirely, although the Patriot vs. the foreign heel dynamic was something that they could have mined for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 1970s Dusty would've worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 1970s Dusty would've worked. Nationally and long term? Vince wanted to push juiced up / athletic looking faces, especially as the anchor. I don't think Dusty would have fit into that. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Vince's #2 face in 1985 was the Junkyard Dog. If Dusty worked, I think Vince would've ran with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Vince had lots of #2 guys to Hogan from 1984-87. None of them were consider to be anchors like Hogan. I'm not even sold he thought of Savage as an anchor face until faced with Hogan being out... and look at how quickly the belt went back to Hogan. Savage also didn't look like Dusty or JYD. He wouldn't have picked Dusty as the #1 in 1983/84 if there was no Hogan. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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