A thread in which Dylan compares various wrestlers to HHH

[Strummer]

the pop he gets at Summerslam 98 is still unreal to me. You can argue that it was because of the Rock but I think he gets some credit there

 

say what you want but at the end of the match it seemed WWF had two new stars on their hand. It just took a lot more effort to get one over as a top guy

[Loss]

There are occasional strong HHH performances. I really like him in the Rikishi and Taka matches in 2000, the Ironman with Rock is really good, and he and Jericho had terrific chemistry on their initial run with some really fun matches. But something that falsely colors that time period is that HHH's ascension happened during a time the WWF was generally well-booked, and at least early on in his run, the WWF mindset was to put people in TV main events that showed even a slight hint that they might be over. Because of this, while there was still a hierarchy, fans weren't nearly as cynical as they would become, so main eventer vs popular midcarder matches usually got over. False finishes, such as those in the Taka match, got big pops because he wasn't yet pushed as so ridiculously dominant that no one thought that he could be beat. By 2002 or so, he'd try to work the same underdog match with a guy like Spike Dudley, and the reaction wouldn't be there anymore because everyone knew no upset was taking place. Your great workers can still make people think someone way lower on the totem pole may pull off an upset by heating up a dead or skeptical crowd, but when you stripped away the hot promotional run and good booking, HHH's flaws were way more exposed, and to me, that's the biggest example of that, although there are plenty more. It's not so much that he regressed after the quad injury as it is that the WWF regressed tremendously during his injury in 2001, and when he came back, he wasn't as propped up by such a strong machine around him.

 

That's not unique to HHH, as there are plenty of guys that were hot from 1998-2000 that couldn't get over after the boom was over at all. It's just that because of HHH's push, you expect better. There is a segment of the fanbase that really likes HHH, and I don't mean to imply that they don't exist. But I also don't want to make a false equivalency where there is none.

[Mad Dog]

the pop he gets at Summerslam 98 is still unreal to me. You can argue that it was because of the Rock but I think he gets some credit there

 

say what you want but at the end of the match it seemed WWF had two new stars on their hand. It just took a lot more effort to get one over as a top guy

I truly believe that you could've plugged almost anyone into that slot against the Rock at Summerslam 98 and they would've gotten that kind of pop. The fans were absolutely rabid to see him lose at the time and they would've latched onto almost anyone that they thought could get the job done.

[Dylan Waco]

This is a much more reasonable list as there are guys I at least had to think about and other guys where I can at least see an argument for HHH even if I think it's a weak one.

 

Kurt Angle

 

I'll take Angle. Angle at his most annoying is arguably worse. Really it's tough because worst v. worst it's a contest between a guy who worked long matches filled with nothing because he didn't have the tools he thought he had and a guy who worked long matches filled with too much because he thought his concept of working a match is built entirely around near falls and escapes. I mean Angle doing parity mat exchanges with Shane McMahon is fucking idiotic, but is it really worse than the cerebral assassin stalking around the ring for a half hour building to a weak slot with a gimmick sledgehammer? But best v. best, Angle wins fairly easily. Angle doing abstinence skits was better than HHH doing cock jokes. Angle as lunatic, dangerous roid head is better than HHH as "King of Kings" phony tough guy. Angle from 00-02 is better than any run of HHH's career and I would rather watch his SummerSlam matches v. Austin and Rey than just about anything HHH has ever done. Both guys now work in promotions that cater to their vanity and illusions about what makes a good match which is not good. HHH is more likely to cover up someones murder and Angle is more likely to carry out one, so that may be a minor plus for HHH. Still I take Angle.

 

Keiji Mutoh

 

I have soured a lot on Mutoh over the last decade and I see a lot of similarities between him in Trips. But Mutoh was a bigger star on his own and their are flashes. He was never a great worker, but his over all act could add to a match, something I cannot say for HHH. Mutoh's best matches are almost assuredly better. Mist is better than crotch chop. 89 Muta was hugely influential on my wrestling fandom and gave us great moments like the angle with Eddie Gilbert and "The Japanese have attacked Ric Flair!"/"Doug Dillinger's a civilian!" Yeah got to go with Mutoh.

 

Shawn Michaels

 

Shawn. For all his faults - and there are many - there is no case for HHH. Even as annoying company ace, with on air sexual tension involving a McMahon family member, Shawn was clearly better. HHH is a guy that needed a gimmick match and Shawn was always a better gimmick match worker than him. I would take Shawn just based on The Rockers alone really, but there is plenty there up until his first retirement to merit him being over Trip. Post-comeback Michaels v. HHH is tougher, but I still think I'd take Shawn as he was good for at least one good match a year and was less likely to annoy me or kill me with a lengthy idiotic promo than Hunter. Plus Shawn defenders arguing that that Shawn was still a good worker because his gimmick was that he was supposed to be a terrible wrestler, amused me in a way HHH defenders never have.

 

Shane Douglas

 

Shane Douglas would have been an infinitely better HHH, than HHH. HHH played angry guy with shit overacting and still does. Douglas was a delusional nut who's "cut my fucking music!" shooting bit was half act, half real, and entertaining more often that not. Both guys saw themselves as heirs to Race and Jack Brisco and both were dead wrong. Both worked too long with guys they shouldn't have due to their own egos/insanity. But Shane was far less likely to do this and his best performances were far better. Shane had series with guys like Scorp and Mikey that HHH could have never had. You could throw him in there with a Jerry Lynn even after he was broken down and he could give you a real miracle performance. Shane is a guy who's stock went up post ECW watch, HHH is a guy who's stock never goes up.

 

Rick Steiner

 

I would rather watch Steiner for sure. If you are going to be an unprofessional piece of shit with an inflated sense of self I want to see you display that by beating the holy hell out of people in an entertaining fashion, not cutting peoples balls off/ruining their careers in a cowardly back handed fashion. Maybe this is a character flaw on my part but so be it. Also I like Rick's work as "fun loving, mildly retarded, bruiser" better than HHH's work opposite Rick clone Eugene.

 

Dean Malenko

 

I am not a Dean fan, but he's better than HHH. Obviously the guy is no kind of promo, but he was a good Nitro style worker and he had plenty of solid little matches. The things that annoy me about him pale in comparison to things that annoy me about HHH.

 

Mistico

 

I really haven't seen enough of his CMLL career to be fair. Was certainly a bigger star/draw than HHH though.

 

Taz

 

Taz was never a good worker in my view, but he had plenty of entertaining squashes and competitive squashes. The average Taz match was really short. I would rather watch a string of competitive squashes/short matches than a long boring HHH shit fest. As a promo Taz's little man syndrome rants were awesome at the time and still hold up pretty well for me. HHH has more good matches, but I would much rather watch Taz at his peak than HHH at his.

 

Kevin Nash

 

This is a pick em. Nash is funnier, though his humor is overrated. Neither guy is a particularly good worker, though Nash was a better foil for Shawn and Bret than some may remember. I honestly have no dog in this fight.

 

Scott Hall

 

Hall. Young Scott Hall was not very good, but I still have a soft spot for Razor Ramon. I suspect if you had plugged him into the HHH role he would have had much better individual performances and far fewer shit shows. If you plug HHH into Razor's role, I doubt we even remember it at all.

 

King Kong Bundy

 

Bundy was a legit good fat man wrestler. He did not have a long run as a quality performer, but there was a point where for his style he was one of the better guys around. I actually like him as a promo too and I thought he had a unique look for a big guy that added to his over all act.

 

Sid Vicious

 

I would rather watch Sid squash people with powerbombs and fumble over promos. I LIKE Sid better than HHH. Was he better? No.

 

Raven

 

Both are crazy overrated heels that's for sure. I am really torn on this. I think HHH's best matches are easily better. Both guys are among the most annoying and least interesting promos in wrestling history. Both fancy themselves master psychologist and neither was. Raven was far less likely to have a crazy long match with someone he had no business going long with, but I really can't recall Raven matches where I thought he did anything that added to the match at all. HHH at his best was a good bumper. So I take HHH

[Jingus]

I'm digging your analysis (although I'd personally put HHH far above Nash). Making lists is so fun that I could do it all day, but for now let's go with just a few that have been kinda mentioned already:

 

Road Dogg

Billy Gunn

Sean Waltman

Chyna

[NintendoLogic]

Kevin Nash

 

This is a pick em. Nash is funnier, though his humor is overrated. Neither guy is a particularly good worker, though Nash was a better foil for Shawn and Bret than some may remember. I honestly have no dog in this fight.

All the other stuff is at least arguable, but come on. HHH may have no grasp of his limitations, but he's a fundamentally competent worker. About the nicest thing you can say about Nash from an in-ring standpoint is that he was carryable.

[goc]

Edge

[Cox]

I'll throw a few guys at you as well, with an emphasis on SMW and ECW since I know you watched a shit ton of both for the sets. Keep in mind, I think the majority of these guys are much better than HHH, but interested in your analysis.

 

Brian Lee

Chris Candido

Harris Brothers

Sandman

Rocco Rock (I'm going to assume Johnny Grunge is an easy no, but if it's not, feel free to explain why)

New Jack

Tim Horner

Balls Mahoney

Nightstalker

 

And not SMW/ECW, but since you did Meng...

Barbarian

[Bix]

I request:

 

Hiromichi/Ricky/Samson/Kodo Fuyuki

Manabu Nakanishi

Mike Awesome

Virgil

Kendall Windham

Scott Norton

Reckless Youth

The Amazing Red

Trent Acid

[Gregor]

I've been trying to keep track of the positive things said about HHH in this thread, and I think the number is at about three or four. "I like Triple H well enough myself," "HHH at his best was a good bumper," and several lines each from Strummer and Loss. All of the other praise he's received has been in the form of backhanded compliments ("He's better than Tom Zenk/Sid"; "He's compentent"). I imagine some of that has to do with the fact that he's being compared mostly to good wrestlers. Still, the thread's first line had HHH pegged at average. So how does he get there? What does he do well? Is calling him "average" too high praise?

[Rocco]

How about Sting, Lex Luger, Davey Boy Smith and Owen Hart?

[Dylan Waco]

Kevin Nash

 

This is a pick em. Nash is funnier, though his humor is overrated. Neither guy is a particularly good worker, though Nash was a better foil for Shawn and Bret than some may remember. I honestly have no dog in this fight.

All the other stuff is at least arguable, but come on. HHH may have no grasp of his limitations, but he's a fundamentally competent worker. About the nicest thing you can say about Nash from an in-ring standpoint is that he was carryable.

 

I don't see how Nash is fundamentally incompetent.

 

Neither guy is a good worker. If you want to say HHH is better I wouldn't argue to hard, though I don't think there is a massive gap between the two.

[khawk20]

No, I haven't watched any Montreal at all in fact. I struggle to believe the guy we saw could have been THAT much better though. Like Duggan, for example, is a LOT better in Mid South than in his WWF days, but the gap is not that big.

Montreal Bravo was a very different wrestler than WWF Bravo, and in my opinion a whole lot better in Montreal.

 

I can't comment on whether Montreal Bravo is better than HHH. I dislike watching HHH matches and pretty much always have, so my opinion isn't unbiased.

 

..but Montreal Bravo >>>> WWF Strongman Bravo. No question.

[Mad Dog]

Randy Orton

[Matt D]

For some ungodly reason I feel the need to redeem Zenk as a worker.

 

Also, I get that there are 40 Dustin Rhodes matches better than HHH's best, but how HAVE the 2000 stuff vs Taka and Rikishi aged? That's pretty much considered Hunter's peak, no?

 

EDIT: I just watched a Tajiri/Hunter fancam from Japan that I thought was going to be the miracle hhh match but nope, not very good at all.

[Loss]

Last I checked, the Rikishi match still looks really good. The Taka match is more booking tricks than HHH performance, but he does time his nearfalls well to get a strong crowd reaction and it's still fun.

[JHawk]

Maybe I don't get it but I read that guys defense of HHH and I don't see it. His mixture of Race,Arn and Flair.....Um what?

Because he idolizes Flair and uses Race's kneedrop and Arn's spinebuster?

 

Beyond that, I dunno.

[Matt D]

HHH vs Mark Henry - 6/23/08:

 

Well this is a great little Henry performance and an okay Hunter one. There's one groanworthy sell job of a stomach punch by hunter, but past that he eats Henry's stuff well. I think, and this is just me, the very best thing about Henry is his expressions/reactions. He knows when to yell at the ref, when to be happy, when to be upset, when and how to show frustration. The best thing Hunter does in this match is look at his fist in exasperation when it's not having much of an effect on Henry. The next best thing is a just brutal flying knee, dead-on instead of the usual side job, and super intensity in his shots to Henry's back. The best thing in the match, though, is Henry's expression first after hitting a vader splash off the second rope and next after Hunter gets his foot on the rope. It's like 6 minutes and worth watching. Hunter can't screw around with his usual plodding-without-a-point or else Henry would get up and destroy him.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7ejMeXpf_c

[Dylan Waco]

Road Dogg

 

I actually think Road Dogg is pretty underrated. He is charismatic and a good talker and has a few identifiable spots that always work. He doesn't have the matches HHH has, but he was never booked to have those matches. Overall I think he's better than HHH. As a worker I'd rather watch him, though I acknowledge that he has very few stand out performances.

 

Billy Gunn

 

Billy Gunn is one of those guys who is totally uninteresting, but also totally unoffensive to me. Hunter is better, but if you gave me the choice between a wrestling show with Gunn on the roster or one with HHH on the roster I'd take Gunn.

 

Sean Waltman

 

Well this is a no brainer. I am not really a huge Waltman fan, but at his best he was a great wrestler. Was a great under dog babyface and actually was a pretty great heel at times, though he had a tendency to push things to far. Fucking Chyna on the way down also is a lot more justifiable than fucking Chyna on the way up.

 

Chyna

 

Come on, Hunter's bad he's not that bad.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll do these two together:

 

Edge

 

I really did have to think about this, but I'd go with Edge. Edge's overracting, shit finisher, terrible offense and bad instincts were really bad at their worst to the point where I may have hated him even more than HHH. Edge/Lita was even annoying to me though it did get heat and I liked it better than HHH/Steph. One big difference to me is that I think Edge was more carriable than Hunter and Edge was willing to convincingly lose even in matches when he didn't have to (see the tremendous Cage Match with Matt Hardy at Unforgiven). Stuff like Jericho v. Edge and Del Rio v. Edge are the type of matches where Edge didn't do a lot other than follow the blueprint, but that was enough and I can't imagine Trip not trying to make the blueprint needlessly lengthy/complex.

 

Randy Orton

 

I am not an Orton fan, but he's a carriable wrestler, who at times will show flashes in the ring. He is far better as a heel than as a face and is a proven failure as the top guy on a brand. He's also a pretty bland promo more often than not. But I could probably name more quality Orton matches and performances than HHH has had with very little effort and Orton has had a substantially shorter career. Can anyone fathom HHH having the matches Orton had with Christian or Henry this year?

[Matt D]

Dylan, watch that HHH/Henry match I posted. I'd be really curious what 08 HHH would have done with 2011-pushed/protected Henry.

[goc]

Dylan, watch that HHH/Henry match I posted. I'd be really curious what 08 HHH would have done with 2011-pushed/protected Henry.

He faced a pushed/protected Kozlov in 08 and killed his career. Henry is way better than Kozlov, but it's not like the company getting behind pushing a guy as a monster was going to stop HHH from making them look bad.

[Dylan Waco]

Brian Lee

 

As a face Brian Lee was pretty terrible. As a heel he was much better, though I'd still call it a stretch to say he was a good worker. He did have moments, notably the tag team with Candido which was a good showcase for the strengths of both guys. In ECW I thought he was extremely effective in his role, though it was not a role intended to produce good matches. HHH was better than Lee, though Lee had points where you thought he might take it to the next level.

 

Chris Candido

 

I was disappointed by Candido's ECW run, but he was still good there and he was great in SMW. Hell I liked a fair amount of Boddydonna Skip. Candido was a small guy who wanted to be that NWA tourning champ style heel. He had a tremendously varied offense, literally one of the most expansive and interesting of any wrestler I can remember. He was also an excellent bumper both in terms of theatrics and in terms of standard delivery. His promos fit his character well and were generally very good for what they were. He should have amounted to far more than he did, but unlike HHH he fucked the wrong woman and she helped ruin his career instead of make it. He was a whole lot better than HHH.

 

Harris Brothers

 

I actually don't think the Harris Brothers are THAT bad. I mean they aren't good, but they aren't the worst ever. Of course they are neo-Nazi's as opposed to HHH who just enjoys Nazi aesthetics. So I'll take Trip.

 

Sandman

 

Oh I think Sandman wins this pretty damn easily. Sandman was a very fun worker despite his limitations. Yeah he could stink up the place if he was too fucked up, but on other nights he could really deliver an extremely entertaining brawl. Another guy with surprising offense, great right hand, really underrated as a guy who could sell and bump his ass off, et. Plus he was a rare guy who had "It" in spades. Crazy charismatic, with the perfect gimmick and the best entrance in wrestling. Cane was better than sledgehammer. Woman was better than Steph. Scorp was better than shawn Michaels. Sandman all the way.

 

Rocco Rock

 

Rocco was a guy who always tried hard, but that often wasn't enough. PE ages pretty badly, but it was an act that meant a lot to the growth of ECW and Rocco clearly carried the act. I always felt like Petty could have been a really good wrestler in the right situation but he was never really put in that situation. I would lean toward him anyhow, but I'm not sure I could really justify it if pressed.

 

New Jack

 

Overall I think New Jack is easily better because he was a great promo. Seriously his SMW promo work was absolutely out of this World great. Best promo on Earth in 95 and he had plenty of really good Pulp Fiction ECW promos as well. I actually think The Gangstas were a good tag team in the ring in SMW as well and Jack's diving clothesline off the apron may have been my favorite regular spot in wrestling during that period. When he went to ECW he immediately became a caricature though it was a crazy over act and I can't really blame him. I suppose almost killing Vic Grimes is worse than anything HHH has done in wrestling (maybe). HHH was the better in ring performer largely because Jack found a niche that involved doing nothing more than blasting people with weapons and made a career out of it.

 

Tim Horner

 

Horner was the better worker by a long shot. Really a good hand in the ring, who was capable of very dynamic exchanges and was also an underrated brawler. On the other hand he was horrible as SMW's lead babyface and was really only suited to work the under card. One of the worst promos I've ever seen, and he stuck out like a sore thumb in a great promo company like SMW. HHH was probably better all around because for all of his faults he was at least believable as an upper tier wrestler and while he was/is a tedious promo he's nothing like Horner in that regard. Still Horner was the better work. And "Shameless" is one of the best wrestlecrap things ever.

 

Balls Mahoney

 

I like Balls better. I think Balls was a strange wrestler who at times looked like a really good wrestler and at other times looked like the sloppiest, silliest guy on Earth. Still he had more good nights than bad nights. His tag team with Axl Rotten should have been terrible but was actually pretty good. He had good matches with RVD, Tanaka and others. Even had some entertaining stuff with the Baldies. The Spike team was quality. The SMW run was silly but it was similar in that he had some good performances and some performances that left you wondering if it was even the same guy. Balls character was basically Balls the person. I actually think I could find more Balls performances I like than HHH performances.

 

Nightstalker

 

Not a Bryan Clark fan. He had some cool spots but I thought he was a massive underachiever. Seemed like he could have and should have been a break out star but wasn't. I'd take Trip over him.

 

Barbarian

 

Barb easily. Another guy who was really convincing and violent as fuck. You bought him as an asskicker probably because he was one. Even as Headshrinker Sionne he added a lot to matches. Another example of a guy with a bigger offensive arsenal than you might suspect and was one of the better guys at working brick wall and then selling based on chinks in the armor over the course of a match. Certainly projected a much more serious aura than the game.

[Cox]

Harris Brothers

 

I actually don't think the Harris Brothers are THAT bad. I mean they aren't good, but they aren't the worst ever. Of course they are neo-Nazi's as opposed to HHH who just enjoys Nazi aesthetics. So I'll take Trip.

One of the things that surprised me about the SMW TV I've been watching is that the Bruise Brothers aren't that bad here. They were never asked to wrestle a straight tag unless it was against the Rock 'n' Roll (who could have a good straight tag with just about anybody), and are more often than not just asked to beat the snot out of people, which hid their flaws quite well. It would be a HUGE stretch for me to say I'm a fan, both because they aren't that good and the aforementioned neo-Nazism. But they had some fun squashes and were carried to good matches by the Rock 'n' Roll and the Bodies.

[Jingus]

I worked with the Harrises one time. Maybe I'm just ruined by all the shitty indy wrestling I endured, but I thought they were perfectly competent. Everything went smooth and painless. I got kicked in the head and H-bombed and hardly felt a thing. They didn't even get mildly annoyed when I blew the timing on one spot, he (I could never tell them apart) just calmly improvised something and moved along.