ohtani's jacket Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Does anybody know why the Satanico/Dandy hair match was booked for the '92 Anniversary Show? Was it covered in the Observer or Sims' newsletter? Right up until the end of August, the build is to Dandy vs. Bestia and then suddenly there's a trios with Dandy vs. the Infernales in September and Bestia is quietly moved into a feud with Love Machine. Bestia was on fire in '92 (arguably the third best worker in the company, IMO), but perhaps they thought the program wouldn't draw? Jose or Noodles care to chip in? While I'm at it, why did Sangre Chicana fall so low in the pecking order? He was arguably the hottest guy in Mexico in the early 80s -- at the very least he was everywhere -- and then by the late 80s he's hardly working the Federal District at all. I know he was suspended a few times, though who knows what the legitimacy of that was. Did he fall out of favour with Paco? Pena never seemed that interested in, not the extent that he saw the value in Perro Aguayo and Cien Caras. Inquiring minds want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 I am sure that it was covered in Sims' newsletter but I can't recall the details. As far as I can remember, it was a panic move that made no sense to anyone at the time. Drop a note to Steve because his memory is better than mine for this type of stuff. Chicana was not the hottest guy in Mexico or even top 5 in the early 80s, though he may have been the hottest rudo at Arena Mexico. Satanico probably was perceived as a bigger star. Cien Caras was the same level or slightly higher and same about Pirata Morgan. This is not to take anything away from Chicana... his peak was back when there were more legitimate top of the card drawing stars in Mexico than at any other point in history in Mexico or any other country. The short story on Chicana is pretty much what you already know. He often got in trouble either with the commission or with law enforcement, and he became unreliable due to drug abuse. His output dropped off as well, allegedly even more so when he was not in large arenas. His exodus also had the terrible timing of a switch in power from Herrera to Pena. But what about Estrada or Fiera who showed up to work more fucked up and were also very unreliable? Then I'd have no answer for you. Maybe Paco liked them more on a personal level (and in Estrada's case he didn't have a decline, he's that rare worker that was a top class performed even when coked up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 11, 2015 Report Share Posted February 11, 2015 Just to put things in perspective, Chicana was NOT as big a star or draw as Fishman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Okay, it just seemed like Chicana was feuding with everyone in the early 80s, rudo and tecnico alike, and had feuds that spilled over between Arena Mexico and El Toreo with the likes of Fishman, Aguayo and Villano III. Cien Caras was a babyface at the time and Satanico seldom worked at El Toreo. Morgan seemed to become a bigger star post-Infernales than prior to hooking up with them. No doubt I'm overrating how hot Chicana was in comparison to Canek, Aguayo or Fishman, but he was Box y Lucha's most outstanding wrestler of 1983 so he seemed like a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Just to put things in perspective, Chicana was NOT as big a star or draw as Fishman. Is Fishman a viable WON HOF candidate? He's someone I would definitely like to learn more about after reading OJ's Lucha History thread. Obviously there are a lot of Lucha guys already on the ballot that deserve to go in but I'm curious if Fishman is someone who should be looked at in the future? That is if the ballot ever clears up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Okay, it just seemed like Chicana was feuding with everyone in the early 80s, rudo and tecnico alike, and had feuds that spilled over between Arena Mexico and El Toreo with the likes of Fishman, Aguayo and Villano III. Cien Caras was a babyface at the time and Satanico seldom worked at El Toreo. Morgan seemed to become a bigger star post-Infernales than prior to hooking up with them. No doubt I'm overrating how hot Chicana was in comparison to Canek, Aguayo or Fishman, but he was Box y Lucha's most outstanding wrestler of 1983 so he seemed like a big deal. He was a top star, don't get me wrong. He was a wild brawler with a tendency to bleed, which was one of the big styles of the era, and he was willing to work El Toreo and the Northern arenas which gave him plenty of popularity points (Satanico for instance was very vocal about not wanting to work there and hating the style). I believe that we tend to overrate his popularity because we have been lucky to get several of his classics on tape. But, you are right, I got my timeline wrong and Caras was a tecnico until late 83/early 84. Somewhat related to this: I am not sure how big of a star MS-1 was. I know he was a big star but don't know at what level. Probably not as big as Chicana but not too far away. It's hard to gauge those things 30 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Just to put things in perspective, Chicana was NOT as big a star or draw as Fishman. Is Fishman a viable WON HOF candidate? He's someone I would definitely like to learn more about after reading OJ's Lucha History thread. Obviously there are a lot of Lucha guys already on the ballot that deserve to go in but I'm curious if Fishman is someone who should be looked at in the future? That is if the ballot ever clears up. Fishman should be on the ballot and definitely deserves a look but I'm not sure who could gather all the information to put a case for him (not me... don't have the resources anymore). Seeing how other Toreo era wrestlers have done in the HOF voting I'd not give him much of a chance. He was a legitimate main event star by 1976 and a gigantic star by 1978. His tag team with Solitario first and Aguayo later was one of the top attractions in the country, and he had tremendous singles feuds with Villano III, Aguayo, Chicana, Faraon. As usual with lucha libre the lack of definite drawing records hurts him. Without the insight of how big he was at the time it's very easy to dismiss his accomplishments as he was simply lucky to be in there with the right people (the Akira Taue argument) as the majority of WON readers know about him from AAA when he was slow and washed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 yeah i was just about to say that fishman has the ken patera problem - his low point was also by far his most visible period. in his case, it's mid-90s AAA which seemed to be the peak of americans caring about lucha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Fishman would have a bigger standing if they had done the Perro Aguayo vs Fishman hair vs mask match in the mid 90s because that one would have been huge. Fishman couldn't bump anymore but he still was a charismatic rudo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Are there any good Fishman matches on tape? He has always looked bad to me, even with the oldest footage we have. Usually even with washed up guys you can get a sense of what they did well when they were younger, but I never got any of that from Fishman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I haven't watched in ages whatever early Fishman there's on the NJPW World website... and I can't recall any great Fishman matches either from Mexico, World Class, Los Angeles or whatever appearances he had in the 80s that we have on tape. People in Mexico tell me he was very good but I have never seen any evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Could someone point me to any discussion on lucha from 2000-2001 besides the Atlantis vs. Villano III big matches. I have looked over Lynch's list the past couple of days and there is a ton of interesting stuff on there with the usual suspects like Casas/Panther/Atlantis but also a lot that could go either way with Mr. Neibla, Olimpico, etc. Feels like a lot of hidden gems could be buried around this time period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Faulconer Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 Mr. Niebla/Olimpico/Safari have a pretty good trios team around that time. Niebla doesn't really fall off until later years. DVDVR has some discussion of the good stuff from that period. It isn't easy sorting out which events are where over there though. cubsfan started watching/recapping the lucha around this 2000-2001 period. The CMLL PPVs were almost always good to great. They ran in March/August/December 2000 and March/September/December 2001. There was also a really fun tournament show from August(?) 1999 that ends in a mask match between the losing team - if you want to go back that far. I'm pretty sure that Lynch has all of those events. There aren't many idividual matches that stand out in my memory. Check out the recommended matches at luchawiki for the best stuff that didn't appear on the CMLL PPVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 14, 2015 Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 I seem to recall some decent Fishman brawling in a few of those AAA trios. Judging by Arena Mexico cards, MS-1 received a push after losing his mask and was firmly lodged in the upper midcard when the Infernales were formed, but it doesn't seem like he was a huge star. Was he a bigger star than Faraon, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted February 14, 2015 Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 Not a bigger star than Faraon - another guy whose stock fell dramatically and was completely forgotten a decade later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 At what point did Hijo del Santo become the biggest drawing card in Mexico? My intro to Lucha in the late 90s early 00s was the When Worlds Collide show and Tenay did a great job getting over how big El Santo and put over Hijo del Santo as a major star also. When watching tapes I always looked at him as the Ace. Like he was the Misawa of Lucha. As I learned more I learned about guys like Perro, Cien Caras, Konnan, etc who I always see talked about as the biggest stars of the late 80s early 90s. So I guess I'm wondering if you guys can talk about El Hijo del Santo's star power and help put him into context as a draw. When did he become the biggest draw in Mexico? Who ranked above him and when as a draw? Is viewing him as a Misawa like Ace fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I don't know if Santo was the biggest drawing card in Mexico, but the height of his drawing power was I assume from 1993 to 1999. Roughly speaking, from the Los Gringos Locos feud up until the end of the Bestia/Scorpio feud. He was certainly a draw before and after that period, but that was the height of his national exposure aside from maybe his run during the Mistico years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Is there a neat list of the best / must-see lucha post-2000? I've been saving various matches to a playlist as I come across them but it always feels like a matter of luck in stumbling across some recs. Not looking for anything as deep as Ditch, but anywhere to start with the best of the best would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 3/17/00 Atlantis vs. Villano III (CMLL) 4/9/00 Santo vs. Blue Panther (Monterrey) 05/28/00 Santo vs. Blue Panther (Monterrey) 10/8/00 Dandy/Shocker/Panther/Zumbido vs. Tarzan Boy/Casas/Antifaz del Norte/La Parka (Monterrrey) 11/08/01 El Dandy vs. Negro Navarro (IWRG) 12/23/01 Santo vs. LA Park (Monterrey) 03/14/02 El Dandy/Ultimo Vampiro/El Fantasma v Negro Navarro/El Pantera/Bomber Infernal (IWRG) 04/04/02 - El Dandy/Ultimo Vampiro v Negro Navarro/El Pantera (IWRG) 04/13/02 – Shocker vs. Dr. Wagner Jr. (CMLL) · Body part selling – worked more New Japan style than CMLL but still interesting July 2003 – Rocky Romero/Bobby Quance/TJ Perkins vs. Virus/Volador Jr./Ricky Marvin · Not the Anniversary show trios. Really good spot fest 04/18/04 – Ultimo Guerrero vs. LA PARK (CMLL Guadalajara) 05/30/04 – Super Porky vs. Asenino Negro (CMLL Guadalajara) 08/13/04 – Santo vs. Perro Jr. (CMLL) · Trios matches before and after this match with these guys are well worth seeking out 12/11/04 – Rocky Romero vs. Virus (CMLL) · Interesting match. Should be watched with the 7/24/04 Romero vs. Chad Collyer match from ROH for an interesting look at what Romero could do in 2004 12/16/04 – Perro Jr. vs. Universo 2000 (CMLL) 2/25/05 – Mistico vs. Ultimo Guerrero (CMLL) 10/14/05 – Pierroth & Dinamitas. vs. Perro Jr & Co (CMLL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 There we go! 5 years down, 10 to go. Will seek these out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted September 30, 2015 Report Share Posted September 30, 2015 I don't know if Santo was the biggest drawing card in Mexico, but the height of his drawing power was I assume from 1993 to 1999. Roughly speaking, from the Los Gringos Locos feud up until the end of the Bestia/Scorpio feud. He was certainly a draw before and after that period, but that was the height of his national exposure aside from maybe his run during the Mistico years. Santo Jr was like a major draw on the independent scene in Mexico. He was similar to someone like a LA Park or a Dr. Wagner Jr today, or like his father was years ago. He didn't work the major buildings as much as a Perro Aguayo or El Canek or Cien Caras. He would come and get that exposure if it was during the TV era. But then he would go out and book himself. That allowed him to make more money than some of the guys who consistently worked the major arena, and that actually brought a lot of heat onto him through out his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest si oem Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroFan Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 I know im bumping an old thread, but im trying to make my way through ojs list in the second post and this is the only version of perro vs chicana from 2/86 i could find which cuts off during the third fall. Is there another video elsewhere that has the rest of the match or is this it? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BvfHCjk-3hY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Here's a (mostly) complete version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DltVw1c0KkA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroFan Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 thanks. i really dug that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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