Lucha history

[El-P]

This is probably a stupid question, but since it's a beginner's guide to lucha. I understand both Konnan & Vampiro were big draws in Mexico at some point. Now, with the amount of great wrestlers they have, what was the fascination for two north-american wrestlers who couldn't work a lick ?

[Bix]

Wrestling on national TV being new combined with them being completely different from everyone else: Konnan was the only charismatic bodybuilder, Vampiro was the only charismatic rock star type. You can sort of get a better idea of Vamp's appeal watching the entrance from his hair match with Pirata Morgan:

 

 

Plus, it's worth noting that Konnan had a habit of working much harder in terms of mechanical pro wrestling when he wasn't over yet. If you check out his run in Calgary, or his early WCW stuff, he's doing a lot more unique to the audience lucha spots. Vampiro, well, he was incredibly green and got by on charisma for years.

[El-P]

So, basically, Vampiro was the Ultimate Warrior, and Konnan was Lex Luger (well, Luger was a hundred times better than Konnan but you get the idea).

 

I though Konnan was still pretty atrocious early on in WCW no matter how many cute lucha spots and submission he would throw out. Vampiro, well, I haven't watched his WCW work for years (and don't think I ever want to look back at it), but what I've just seen in MLW is just eye gouging bad on every aspect. That's about 12 years after he debuted so I guess he never learned much of anything.

[FLIK]

so I guess he never learned much of anything.

I forget the details but he's done interviews more or less admiting he was never properly trained and he's fully aware how much he sucks and got over purely on look/gimmick/charisma.

[Jingus]

I forget the details but he's done interviews more or less admiting he was never properly trained and he's fully aware how much he sucks and got over purely on look/gimmick/charisma.

Which still doesn't explain why he kept sucking and never learned how to do this shit correctly. It's not like he didn't have the opportunity, he was still working with a shitload of great talent in WCW.

[ohtani's jacket]

but even today we don't get some of the match-ups we want like Black Terry vs. Negro Navarro

They've had a few singles matches, there's a JIP fancam of one on youtube

 

Yeah, I know, but trust me we've been waiting four years for a Black Terry/Navarro match.

 

As for Konnan and Vampiro, Mexico's no different to anywhere else in terms of the guys on top not always being the best workers. Konnan had the look (well, mostly the physique) and worked big programs with Cien Caras and Perro Aguayo. He sucked, but it wasn't difficult for him to do crowd pleasing spots. I guess the equivalent would have been Sid if he'd been successful in '91 and '92. Also, he was a Pena creation as far as I'm aware and Pena had his finger on the pulse at the time. Most of what he touched turned to gold. The Vampiro stuff is so bad I don't bother watching it, but I assume it was his look and possibly his size.

[sek69]

Pretty sure Vampiro in his prime was a big draw for female fans, perhaps Mexico was ahead of the curve on the whole "women love vampires" trend?

[Phil Schneider]

Can we keep this on topic? Who gives a fuck about Vampiro?

[sek69]

Can we keep this on topic? Who gives a fuck about Vampiro?

Perhaps the beginners to lucha the topic was geared toward would be interested, you uppity cunt.

[El-P]

Can we keep this on topic? Who gives a fuck about Vampiro?

Yeah, because you contributed so much in this beginners guide to... wait, oh no, actually you contributed shit there and just come by to be an asshole. So who gives a fuck about your opinion there ?

[Dylan Waco]

Maybe we should have a beginner's guide to All Japan where we talk about Gary Albright and how much he sucked, or discuss why Wajima was pushed.

[El-P]

Well, anyone interested in All Japan and not knowing much about it has the right to ask why Wajima was pushed, yes.

 

Vampiro and Konnan were important figures of 90's lucha, I don't see what the issue is asking questions about them.

[Dylan Waco]

When I first got into All Japan by reading match reviews by jdw and others, my initial thought wasn't "why the fuck is one of the Dynamic Dudes mixing it up with the top stars on the show?" It was "I really want to see these matches."

 

One of the problems with discussing Lucha relative to other styles is that a lot of people are so dismissive of it that discussions constantly get derailed into debates about why Lucha "isn't like" other wrestling or some variation thereof. When I see a thread filled with match recommendations and OJ making interesting observations about Lucha as a whole and the first discussion point is "so what the fuck was the deal with Konan and Vampiro?" I think it pretty obviously defeats the purpose of the thread.

 

I'll say this, I've been wanting to add some comments on matches and wrestlers to this thread, but as soon as I saw the talk shift in that direction I immediately thought "why bother."

[Matt D]

I'd totally get into Lucha right now (I'm sure there's an internal logic that matches follow and things work or don't work relative to that), but I'm trying to learn French for work, not Spanish, so it's just L'Ange Blanc matches for me for now (not that I can find any of those).

[NintendoLogic]

Yeah, if somebody new to All Japan asks "How the hell did this Albright dude get a shot at the Triple Crown?," the correct answer is not "Who gives a fuck about Albright? Talk about Kawada more!"

[El-P]

One of the problems with discussing Lucha relative to other styles is that a lot of people are so dismissive of it that discussions constantly get derailed into debates about why Lucha "isn't like" other wrestling or some variation thereof. When I see a thread filled with match recommendations and OJ making interesting observations about Lucha as a whole and the first discussion point is "so what the fuck was the deal with Konan and Vampiro?" I think it pretty obviously defeats the purpose of the thread.

I really enjoyed Dan's posts, recommanding matches and giving some explanation about the style. Yet, as I happened to stumble onto Vampiro's matches recently, it came to my thoughts that he and Konnan share some of the same "qualities", being foreigner, sucking in the ring and having been big draws in Mexico in the last decade. So, seeing this is a "Beginner's Guide to Lucha", I though well, why not ask *there* since it's a question about lucha. Silly me. And hell, I even said it was probably a stupid question.

 

I'm pretty sure if anyone asked John in a "Beginner's Guide to All Japan" why Wajima was pushed, or why Gary Allbright didn't worked the same style as the main event guys, he would have gladly answered. But hey, people have to bitch about everything I guess. Don't worry, I won't interfere anymore, I'll just read. I probably had a Canek question somewhere, but I'll think twice before asking.

[El-P]

I'd totally get into Lucha right now (I'm sure there's an internal logic that matches follow and things work or don't work relative to that), but I'm trying to learn French for work, not Spanish, so it's just L'Ange Blanc matches for me for now (not that I can find any of those).

Good luck with that. I'm sure there are some matches on tapes somewhere, as wrestling was pretty big on TV in the 50's I think, but nothing has showed up anywhere so far. I would love to see if there are some Lino Ventura matches on tape.

Bon courage pour le français !

[Phil Schneider]

How about we break the post up into two posts, one talking more about match recommendations and stylistic questions, one about history stuff. Then the thread wouldn't get derailed? Hell I wrote a Vampiro history piece for Fighting Spirit Magazine, I'll go ahead and try to answer some Vampiro questions, I just think the interesting stuff that OJ was doing got dragged off the rails.

[Phil Schneider]

I forget the details but he's done interviews more or less admiting he was never properly trained and he's fully aware how much he sucks and got over purely on look/gimmick/charisma.

Which still doesn't explain why he kept sucking and never learned how to do this shit correctly. It's not like he didn't have the opportunity, he was still working with a shitload of great talent in WCW.

 

Here is a quote from my Vampiro piece which might explain why he wasn't diligently working on his craft.

 

"The promoters wouldn’t let me stop working,.. I couldn’t go out at night without being high, I could go to bed without being high.. I had to get shot with synthetic morphine just to go into the ring.. and when I get out I have to take 20 Halcions just to fall asleep and I have to get up in the morning to do a radio interview and catch a plane and I had to be speeded up for that. I had at least 8 drug overdoses...my heart stopped in the ring.”

[tomk]

This is probably a stupid question, but since it's a beginner's guide to lucha. I understand both Konnan & Vampiro were big draws in Mexico at some point. Now, with the amount of great wrestlers they have, what was the fascination for two north-american wrestlers who couldn't work a lick ?

Think of them as Yamazaki and Takada, charismatic young guys who seemed different with a ton of raw potential. Fans will overlook that they can't put a match togeter and gleam onto the potential rather than the reality. A guy can have a pretty decent career in wrestling based on audience nostalgia for that moment of potential.

[El-P]

Very wrong exemple.

But I know that was at attempt at being a smart alec, so whatever... I'm done.

[Dylan Waco]

So if you make a comparison to two wrestlers you are familiar with it's a smartass move? Okay...

 

I actually have a general question - who are the upper tier of draws in Lucha history. Obviously El Santo is god king, but beneath that level who is in the discussion. Cien Caras would seem like one based on what I know. I'm curious about Canek

[Loss]

I'm assuming Perro is up there too?

[tomk]

Very wrong exemple.

But I know that was at attempt at being a smart alec, so whatever... I'm done.

 

This wasn't meant as a shot or smart alec remark.

I legit thought if anyone could understand the long term appeal of Konnan and Vampiro it would be you.

 

Also worth mentioning that Konnan and Vampiro were both guys who clearly were following UWFi and Pancrase closely....and kind of had the same misunderstandings/problems working that style that guys you like are accused of having.

[tomk]

So if you make a comparison to two wrestlers you are familiar with it's a smartass move? Okay...

 

I actually have a general question - who are the upper tier of draws in Lucha history. Obviously El Santo is god king, but beneath that level who is in the discussion. Cien Caras would seem like one based on what I know. I'm curious about Canek

 

For the last couple of decades we have Farmer's data, which of course is imperfect:

 

 

For the current HOF candidates

FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Perro Aguayo Jr. {92}

Atlantis {127}

Cien Caras {120}

Karloff Lagarde {21}

Blue Panther {76}

L.A. Park {67}

Huracan Ramirez {12}

Vampiro {73}

Villano III {76}

Dr. Wagner Jr. {112}

In sep 12th observer Meltzer wrote:

 

 

Wrestler/historian Matt Farmer in doing the Hall of Fame balloting listed the top 15 performers on this year’s ballot when it comes to headlining shows that have drawn more than 10,000 fans. Keep in mind that this list favors modern performers because there are so many fewer shows than ever before, and it’s a lot easier drawing when there are two shows a year in your market as opposed to in many cases 52 in your city and another 100 within short driving distance each year. Plus, modern wrestlers in many ways draw more based on just being in the promotion as opposed to based on individual drawing power, as in the past, and those in Mexico usually headlined trios matches so there was more opportunities for people to draw on top.

 

The top 15 are: 1. Batista 133; 2. Edge 129; 3. Atlantis 127; 4. Cien Caras 120; 5. Dr. Wagner Jr. 112; 6. Carlos Colon 89; 7. Sgt. Slaughter 86; 8. Pedro Morales 82; 9. Sting 81; 10. Villano III 76 and Blue Panther 76; 12. Vampiro and Kensuke Sasaki 73; 14. Ivan Koloff 72; 15. L.A. Park 67

 

To me, I still find it more accurate, instead of total number of shows, to base it on where you placed based on the standards of your time. By that standard, the top names on this year’s ballot are:

 

1. Pedro Morales; 2. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 3. Ivan Koloff and Batista; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Henri DeGlane; 7. Cien Caras and Wilbur Snyder; 9. Hans Schmidt; 10. Atlantis and Dr. Wagner Jr.; 12. Gorilla Monsoon; 13. John Tolos.

There is no explanation of how he came to the conclusions he does inorder to create second list. And I really don't buy his results

 

 

Since I'm interested in the luchadors he also said:

 

 

And the Luchadores are still in a position to look stronger because when a promotion is hot, and they are drawing, you have six people on top in most shows as opposed to two or four in the U.S. or Japanese markets. Atlantis has been a major star in Mexico forever, and part of two major boom periods. But having seen him through virtually his entire career and during both of those periods, he was a guy along for the ride and not the guy causing the ride, as opposed to a Mistico, El Hijo del Santo, Perro Aguayo Sr., Vampiro, Konnan or Canek, who were genuinely big drawing cards and not just guys who worked six mans on top when business was strong. That’s not to say Atlantis shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame, but if he goes in, in my mind it should be because he’s a great wrestler in the ring and his longevity at the top is great, a headliner consistently for a quarter-century. Some guys go in for drawing power, and even if some people’s numbers look good, that doesn’t necessarily tell the story that they are great draws.

Since he's specifically addressing Atlantis here, I'd say he misses the degree to which the Wagner feud elevated both of them.

This is something that's been forgotten in Us booking. Rivalry extends the life and increases the draw for both participants. But I also don't buy his general theory that Cien wasn't an actual draw. It would be worth trying to look at the actual matches that make Farmer's numbers.