TonyPulis'Cap Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 Still remember getting my first ROH tapes back in late 2002 - the Round Robin Challenge and Road to the Title I think - and that got me absolutely hooked on them as a promotion. Have got virtually every DVD between 2004 and 2007/08 when I was so invested in what they were doing, just a fantastic product during that time. Who knows where the footage from that period ends up, so glad I've still got all those DVDs squirreled away somewhere, feeling nostalgic to dig a few of them out now with the dual purpose of them being good research materials for GWE watching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 4 hours ago, TonyPulis'Cap said: Would definitely agree with this - the TV shows on HDNET, while *in theory* meant to be pushing the same storylines as the other shows never synced up, so it became really confusing in terms of the timelines and you almost had parallel products going on, which actually, is something they never ever rectified in the decade since. I stopped watching ROH just prior to the pandemic and they STILL couldn't sync up the timeline of their TV with their PPVs and other shows. That was also around the time Marty Scurll got named in Speaking Out, when there had actually seemed to be a bit of a positive buzz around the direction of the product and who they were signing since he had become booker. It probably wouldn't have been enough to steer them on a course to something more positive than where we are now mind given Sinclair were never much interested in them as anything other than cheap content, but you never know. While they deserve praise for being one of the few wrestling companies to behave responsibly during Covid and support the wrestlers in that time despite not running shows that was after years of awful HR practices by the sound of things, and creatively, they have been a zombie promotion for a little while now. It was worse than that in the Sinclair era. If there was a PPV everything would come to a complete halt for a month and you would habe to wait for the new taping cycle to kick in. And they would never bridge that gap, they would just have a set if lazy episodes with barely anything until you got angles resuming again. I remember when they did that big Bullet Club angle. It was like the start of May and it took until June for the TV to reflect any of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 I wanted to also add. I was a regular at the live shows around central Ohio for a couple of years. I stopped going when they started running a concert venue that was terrible for wrestling and jacked all the prices up. I think my $45 second row seat was $75 by the time I just gave up on looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delacroix Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 9 hours ago, joeg said: Why should any fan care what he says on twitter unless it obviously breaks character. And double why would anyone care what he said on twitter a decade ago. As was mentioned, homophobia shouldn’t be a gimmick, because it has real-life consequences. Virulent, violent homophobia is a much greater transgression than breaking wrestling character. As a wrestling fan, I suppose you could say it doesn’t matter (though I disagree with that, as well), but as a human being I care quite a bit. There’s obviously an inherent, necessary degree of cognitive dissonance required to be a wrestling fan (really to be a fan of anything, though wrestling sets that bar higher than most things), and we all have to figure out where we, as individuals, draw the line, and I’m not interested in criticizing anyone whose habits of compartmentalization happen to look different from mine, but to suggest that this is like the Bushwackers popping off 30 years ago makes very little sense. The wrestling business, wrestling fandom and the larger culture have changed greatly since that time, so to bring up how fans would have reacted thirty years ago to a hypothetical similar situation seems pretty meaningless and, honestly, like some Jim Cornette shit. A common expectation, at this point in time, is that we all think more complexly about stuff like this. It might not directly affect you and me, personally, but it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 21 minutes ago, delacroix said: There’s obviously an inherent, necessary degree of cognitive dissonance required to be a wrestling fan (really to be a fan of anything, though wrestling sets that bar higher than most things), and we all have to figure out where we, as individuals, draw the line, and I’m not interested in criticizing anyone whose habits of compartmentalization happen to look different from mine, but to suggest that this is like the Bushwackers popping off 30 years ago makes very little sense. I see people say this here pretty regularly but it's just not true. It's only true if I expected or in some way need wrestlers (or other entertainers) to be morally upright people. It's not cognitive dissonance to say "huh that guy sucks and did something bad but I'll still watch him wrestle/listen to a song/enjoy his movie/etc." Inevitably there are certain lines that have a point of no return - I'm pretty sure I haven't watched a Benoit match since his crimes and death and don't intend to - but if I decided to rewatch something it wouldn't be cognitive dissonance because I wouldn't be watching Benoit, or Jay Briscoe who I also haven't seen in years, to be morally righteous and that to be relevant to the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delacroix Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, Steenalized said: It's not cognitive dissonance to say "huh that guy sucks and did something bad but I'll still watch him wrestle/listen to a song/enjoy his movie/etc." I’d argue that it is. Unless you agree with or simply don’t care about the thing they did, you have to set it aside and choose, consciously or unconsciously, to not allow that action (which is more ‘real’ and consequential than a wrestling match or song or movie) to affect your enjoyment of their performance. 17 minutes ago, Steenalized said: Inevitably there are certain lines that have a point of no return - I'm pretty sure I haven't watched a Benoit match since his crimes and death and don't intend to Is this really any different than choosing not to watch a Jay Briscoe match because of his homophobia? Isn’t this just choosing to draw the line in a different place than someone else, because you’re not able to overlook that Benoit did something bad (i.e., the cognitive dissonance is too much for you)? If my point of no return is violent homophobia, it seems like, basically, we’re engaging in the same thing here. 25 minutes ago, Steenalized said: I wouldn't be watching Benoit, or Jay Briscoe who I also haven't seen in years, to be morally righteous and that to be relevant to the match. Similarly, I’ve never watched a Woody Allen movie because I believed it would make me a better person, and it’s not why I think I’m done with his films. For a long time, I’ve known about the gross stuff that he’s been accused of, but I chose to ignore it. And it was easy, because it was what pretty much everyone else was choosing to do, as well. Over time, though, it became more and more uncomfortably, partly because more information came out and I had more time to sit with it, but mostly because popular opinion forced me to think about it more, and, at this point, it’s not something I think I can set aside. I always have had the impression that this is what cognitive dissonance is (as it relates to this kind of situation): awareness of something that might compromise your enjoyment that you choose to ignore (at least inasmuch as it impacts to your enjoyment of the wrestler/artist/whatever). Logically, based on the values you believe you hold, it should matter, but it doesn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 33 minutes ago, delacroix said: I’d argue that it is. Unless you agree with or simply don’t care about the thing they did, you have to set it aside and choose, consciously or unconsciously, to not allow that action (which is more ‘real’ and consequential than a wrestling match or song or movie) to affect your enjoyment of their performance. Yes, but me drawing a different line then you, or you drawing a different line than a third person, don't require cognitive dissonance on anyone's part. Different moral standards across people or groups isn't cognitive dissonance, different moral standards held by the same person can be - emphasis on can, since I think it's odd to presume the mental state of literally everyone who watches wrestling. 33 minutes ago, delacroix said: Is this really any different than choosing not to watch a Jay Briscoe match because of his homophobia? Isn’t this just choosing to draw the line in a different place than someone else, because you’re not able to overlook that Benoit did something bad (i.e., the cognitive dissonance is too much for you)? If my point of no return is violent homophobia, it seems like, basically, we’re engaging in the same thing here. Benoit's a particular case given his wrestling and wrestling style draws a pretty clear line to his mental decline and ultimately what he did, which has been discussed here before. Not that I expect you to go hunting old posts on the topic, just saying that Benoit is an exceptional case for the heinousness of the action and how clearly his in-ring work connects to it. 33 minutes ago, delacroix said: I always have had the impression that this is what cognitive dissonance is (as it relates to this kind of situation): awareness of something that might compromise your enjoyment that you choose to ignore (at least inasmuch as it impacts to your enjoyment of the wrestler/artist/whatever). Logically, based on the values you believe you hold, it should matter, but it doesn’t. Right, that sounds like it could be dissonance, just making sure we're talking about the same thing. I think we're prone to saying "it's cognitive dissonance!" when someone makes an apparently contradictory stance or/action, but we're reading it from our outside perspective, presuming some sort of hypocrisy, then prescribing a mental state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 In his apology, he said that he was tweeting from the perspective of the redneck character Jay Briscoe and wasn't expressing the real-life views of the person Jamin Pugh. I don't know if I buy that, but the people who heard his apology thought he sounded sincere. Either way, he hasn't done anything of the sort since, which is what really counts. If he isn't espousing hateful rhetoric and is able to work with gay people without issue, does it really matter what his personal views are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 Yeah, that’s hiding behind your gimmick. No need to even have your gimmick go that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav'oh Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 ...and if we don't want him in our wrestling feds, does that mean we can't buy a burger from him or pay him $20 to mow the lawn or accept an Uber ride from him? Is he "allowed" to work anywhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 He's allowed to pursue any career he wishes to. I'm allowed to not support a homophobe if I don't want to. That's how freedom works. If your income takes a hit because of something fucked up you say or do, it's not the fault of the people who don't want to do business with you. It's your fault for saying or doing the shitty things. I will say there was way more of a need for cognitive dissonance in the 80s and 90s when a high percentage of people in wrestling were shitty for one reason or another. Things have improved a lot since then so I can understand how some folks don't feel the need for such things anymore. I'd actually say it requires a lot more dissonance to be a fan of real sports since it seems another horror story is coming out nearly every day from that world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delacroix Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Steenalized said: Benoit's a particular case given his wrestling and wrestling style draws a pretty clear line to his mental decline and ultimately what he did, which has been discussed here before. Not that I expect you to go hunting old posts on the topic, just saying that Benoit is an exceptional case for the heinousness of the action and how clearly his in-ring work connects to it. This makes sense, but I still want to say it’s still a matter of personal tolerance (or whatever; I’m kind of having hard time coming up with a way to refer to this that feels appropriate). The line isn’t as direct, obviously, but it’s also very possible to make the argument that the hyper-masculine culture of sports strongly contributes to the kind of homophobia displayed in Briscoe’s tweets. Besides, regardless of the specifics of these two cases, I think it’s still a personal thing, dependent on individual values. Edited October 30, 2021 by delacroix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, delacroix said: The line isn’t as direct, obviously, but it’s also very possible to make the argument that the hyper-masculine culture of sports strongly contributes to the kind of homophobia displayed in Briscoe’s tweets. Yeah I think that makes sense and there is something to it, though it happening in 2013 and immediately getting a backlash at least shows the culture is changing. In 1993 or even 2003 it probably goes without comment at best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 I just love that the point was made by someone with a Goldust avatar (a gimmick designed to get heat with that very same hyper masculine culture). (also not being sarcastic, I really did love seeing that. makes me remember why I like this place so much) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 That's not even a hypothetical. When Brock Lesnar was trying out for the Vikings, he gave an interview to ESPN where he flat-out said "I don't like gays" (among other things that were apparently unprintable) that barely raised an eyebrow. https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=1830855 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 To get away from the moral discussions (though bravo to all for handling it with much more tact than I'm used to seeing), the entire ROH library is up for sale and not just the Sinclair era. https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2021/10/updates-on-ring-of-honor-contracts-possibly-bringing-in-gcw-talent/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 31 minutes ago, Laz said: To get away from the moral discussions (though bravo to all for handling it with much more tact than I'm used to seeing), the entire ROH library is up for sale and not just the Sinclair era. https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2021/10/updates-on-ring-of-honor-contracts-possibly-bringing-in-gcw-talent/ The tape library is worth more if ROH is an existing entity which is what the Wrestlemania weekend show is really all about so I've been told. AKA "the play". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 I really, really hope TK gets the rights to the library. Not just because of All In, but more selfishly it deserves better than to be added to the piles of content never to get added to the WWE Network. I guess we'd at least see a match or two in a Best of Seth Rollins DVD, but yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted October 30, 2021 Report Share Posted October 30, 2021 I hope TK gets it because we know that AEW would put plans into motion to utilize it quickly. The Gabe years are a golden era to the modern fan, where the modern style was codified. They're working on a streaming service of some sort, last I heard, and debuting it with AEW footage as well as Ring of Honor classics would be an instant buy-in for a good chunk of fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted October 31, 2021 Report Share Posted October 31, 2021 I want to say a few years ago WWE was in talks to buy the tape library for the Network and it probably fell through because it was Sinclair era only and who the fuck wants that footage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2021 Report Share Posted October 31, 2021 Actually it probably fell through because WWE is notoriously cheap in their offers for footage because most of the time they're buying them from broke ass promoters or their families who just want to get rid of it. Sinclair probably got a lowball offer and told them to GTFO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 31, 2021 Report Share Posted October 31, 2021 The price was probably Joe Koff in the HoF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2021 Report Share Posted October 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, Mad Dog said: The price was probably Joe Koff in the HoF. LOL Also this reminded me of how long it took them to get the full Mid South library because Bill Watts'' ex owned a chunk and she was looking for a payout rather than any attachment to the rasslin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted October 31, 2021 Report Share Posted October 31, 2021 Just now, sek69 said: LOL Also this reminded me of how long it took them to get the full Mid South library because Bill Watts'' ex owned a chunk and she was looking for a payout rather than any attachment to the rasslin. They still haven't fucking cleaned up the pre-81 shit. Micah Watts was trying to do that before they bought it and it still isn't out there. That's the stuff that pisses me off. They buy all of thise shit and hide it away to never be seen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted November 1, 2021 Report Share Posted November 1, 2021 They never even finished uploading Mid South stuff at all. They did upload all of World Class they had and basically the whole decade of the 80s for whatever the 6:05 Mid Atlantic show was called at the time although they also stopped somewhere around the middle of 1989 and then went back and uploaded actual MACW shows from 81-85 and never got back to finishing the World Championship Wrestling shows even as they moved on to Saturday Night and then also stopped with that. But for Mid South they just stopped completely around 1983 I think and then have one or two UWF shows and haven't touched it in years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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