JerryvonKramer Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Why is Cena above Sting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 So if we just look at the WWE years, how many guys would rank ahead of Cena? I came up with the following: Christian Matt Hardy Rey Mysterio Eddie Guerrero CM Punk Daniel Bryan It's a pretty weak field and I'm not sure any of those guys would make my top 100. There's also a number of guys where I haven't really seen enough of their work (Finlay, Regal, etc.) to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 cena's execution is actually outstanding; the weird stf is very much an exception. i think in 09 he had a match against miz where in the opening they did the "young punk gets out wrestled by veteran" schtick and cena's execution on basic 'technical' wrestling stuff was shockingly good. he did some pretty cool good looking mat stuff in the 2011 summerslam match. his power moves generally look very good. "bad execution" seems like a common criticism but it really seems to be 100% linked to his weird stf, cena is not a sloppy guy. i'd rate him above austin and bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Let's face it: - Bad execution - the man still can't figure out how to apply an STF 9 years in. Cena's not an idiot by any means. He apparently has Arn Anderson as his personal agent. To me, if he's still doing the STF that way, there's a reason for it. There's a million ways to do the STF in a safer and more believeable way and Cena hasn't figured out any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I don't buy it. Hell Anderson basically had a feud where the central thrust was the fact his opponent had just mastered the STF. Cena knows what he's doing and does it for a specific dramatic reason. Maybe he wants it big and loose for some visual reason. Maybe he does it for a laugh. Maybe it's because it really doesn't matter and it's all symbolic anyway. I just don't buy that there's not some element of causality there other than "He never figured out that he had a shitty looking move." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 didn't it look really good when he started doing it, with him basically wrapping his giant arm around his opponents neck like a stf-choke sort of thing? or am i imagining things? i always thought maybe as WWE really geared up into its PG, kid-friendly marketing they wanted him to do it in a way that is "safer" as kids would inevitably try to imitate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzombie1988 Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I don't buy it. Hell Anderson basically had a feud where the central thrust was the fact his opponent had just mastered the STF. Cena knows what he's doing and does it for a specific dramatic reason. Maybe he wants it big and loose for some visual reason. Maybe he does it for a laugh. Maybe it's because it really doesn't matter and it's all symbolic anyway. I just don't buy that there's not some element of causality there other than "He never figured out that he had a shitty looking move." I blame Cena because most of his offense looks awful from the weak blue thunder bomb to the terrible punches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I don't buy it. Hell Anderson basically had a feud where the central thrust was the fact his opponent had just mastered the STF. Cena knows what he's doing and does it for a specific dramatic reason. Maybe he wants it big and loose for some visual reason. Maybe he does it for a laugh. Maybe it's because it really doesn't matter and it's all symbolic anyway. I just don't buy that there's not some element of causality there other than "He never figured out that he had a shitty looking move." Would you say the same about Rock and his terrible sharpshooter? Ultimately, I don't think it matters. If the move looks shitty, don't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Rocky isn't an idiot. He wrestled Bret Hart. He wrestled Owen. He wrestled Benoit. He knows how to put on a sharpshooter. He 100% did the leg hug sharpshooter on purpose. Why? I don't have a frigging idea, but I refuse to believe he didn't know what he was doing. I DO believe that SID had no idea how to put the Crippler Crossface on right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just about any move, no matter how ineffective or dumb it may look, can get over in wrestling if sold properly and treated as important. I don't see the significance of all moves having to "look" good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 So if we just look at the WWE years, how many guys would rank ahead of Cena? I came up with the following: Christian Matt Hardy Rey Mysterio Eddie Guerrero CM Punk Daniel Bryan It's a pretty weak field and I'm not sure any of those guys would make my top 100. There's also a number of guys where I haven't really seen enough of their work (Finlay, Regal, etc.) to comment. Not even Rey or Eddie? I thought those two would've been stone cold locks for most peoples' top 100 (but maybe you're not most people!). Those two would almost certainly be in my top 20, with Eddie likely top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just about any move, no matter how ineffective or dumb it may look, can get over in wrestling if sold properly and treated as important. I don't see the significance of all moves having to "look" good. Wrestling is symbolic. It's just a matter of training the fans. Selling is WAY more important than "execution" absolutely. Look at Blackwell selling Crusher's little pokey punches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Also, does looking good mean looking like it hurts or does it mean being executed gracefully? Because a guy with arms the size of Cena using all of his strength to push his fists into my nose doesn't sound that pleasant. Is Masa Chono's version of the hold really that much better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just about any move, no matter how ineffective or dumb it may look, can get over in wrestling if sold properly and treated as important. I don't see the significance of all moves having to "look" good. Right. Any move can be put over regardless of execution. I agree. That's not really pertinent to the discussion. When the move is executed as poorly as Cena's STF it helps to kills my sense of disbelief in watching the match. We can go through Shawn Michaels' entire post-comeback moveset. I'd imagine a lot of the moves look terrible but I'd bet they're all over with the crowd. But I doubt anyone would make that a defense for Michaels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I understand the point, to a degree. Wrestling that looks a little sloppy doesn't take me out of the moment, as much as wrestling that looks too soft does, which is oddly enough one of my issues with Shawn. (I say that really hoping I didn't just accidentally turn this into another Shawn Michaels thread.) So I'll clarify my point: How moves look is indeed important. But it's much easier for me to buy the idea of a move barely connecting or looking sloppy still doing some damage than it is that a move that looks really light did any damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Also, does looking good mean looking like it hurts or does it mean being executed gracefully? Because a guy with arms the size of Cena using all of his strength to push his fists into my nose doesn't sound that pleasant. Is Masa Chono's version of the hold really that much better? This is an interesting question too. I've noticed in a lot of the AWA matches I've been watching there's more of a sense for struggle. In some of them, guys don't just go over for arm drags, for instance, but there's a sense of real fight to them. The end result is that they're not as beautiful or quick or snappy looking in some ways, but they drew me into the match a lot more than a lot of the more cooperative looking wrestling we get now. I could see how someone could look at them and think that they aren't nearly as impressive or high impact than what we get now, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 This stuff is hard to talk about sometimes, because the tendency to want to establish absolutes is there. I just caught myself going down that path. How moves look isn't important to me. Except when it is. I don't care about execution. Except when I do. "The opposite of a profound truth may very well be another profound truth" -- Niels Bohr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 Also, does looking good mean looking like it hurts or does it mean being executed gracefully? I guess I just want things to look realistic and competitive. I don't mean realistic in a shoot-style sort of way and I don't need the guys working stiff or anything like that. But when Cena has so much daylight in putting on the hold it takes me out of the match. Like another spot I hate is Flair's Frankenstein walk sell of a sunset flip. It looks terrible and phony. Sorry. I realize my description of "looking good" sounds vague. I should think about it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I can't even imagine ranking Christian or Matt Hardy over John Cena, and I like both those guys. Neither of them could have come close to having as good a run as the top guy as Cena did from 06 until his injury in 07. Neither of them could have had as good a match with guys like Umaga, Khali or Lashley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 So if we just look at the WWE years, how many guys would rank ahead of Cena? I came up with the following: Christian Matt Hardy Rey Mysterio Eddie Guerrero CM Punk Daniel Bryan It's a pretty weak field and I'm not sure any of those guys would make my top 100. There's also a number of guys where I haven't really seen enough of their work (Finlay, Regal, etc.) to comment. Not even Rey or Eddie? I thought those two would've been stone cold locks for most peoples' top 100 (but maybe you're not most people!). Those two would almost certainly be in my top 20, with Eddie likely top 10. They might make my top 100 or even top 50. Then again they might be top 150. I just haven't thought it about it too much. I have a pretty well established top 20 or so but after that it's messy. I probably have them bunched around guys like Pillman, Owen, and Jannetty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I can't even imagine ranking Christian or Matt Hardy over John Cena, and I like both those guys. Neither of them could have come close to having as good a run as the top guy as Cena did from 06 until his injury in 07. Neither of them could have had as good a match with guys like Umaga, Khali or Lashley. I think Christian's 2009-2011 face run is one of the best babyface runs in company history. He was the best worker in the company. Cena's best doesn't really come close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 cena's execution is actually outstanding; the weird stf is very much an exception. i think in 09 he had a match against miz where in the opening they did the "young punk gets out wrestled by veteran" schtick and cena's execution on basic 'technical' wrestling stuff was shockingly good. he did some pretty cool good looking mat stuff in the 2011 summerslam match. his power moves generally look very good. "bad execution" seems like a common criticism but it really seems to be 100% linked to his weird stf, cena is not a sloppy guy. I just think a lot of his stuff looks awkward or light or both. I just watched the tag match from Raw and I don't think anyone would consider his execution outstanding. Cena going for Punk's running knee and bulldog looked terrible. Granted they're not his moves but a bulldog is pretty basic. I'm gonna try to watch some more Cena matches in the near future to see if this is something I'm wrong about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 I thought Christian's 09 run was really great and underrated, but I still don't think I'd rate him above Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 To be perfectly honest, and I thought this but didn't say it in the Shawn Michaels thread as well, I'm not sure if I could make a top 100 list period let alone if John Cena would be on it. Pick any of the numbers on the list, say the twenties or the fifties...what is going to make say #56 worse than #55? Or #55 better than #56. How do those reasons make him better/worse than #54 or #57? It would just be impossible. And on top of that, how many of the guys on my list would be on there just because I'm a mark? I'm not going to make a fuckin' top 100 list w/out King Kong Bundy or The Great Muta on it...and if it's a list where guys like Matt Hardy or Christian are on it, I don't think I want to make it anyway. Waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 To be perfectly honest, and I thought this but didn't say it in the Shawn Michaels thread as well, I'm not sure if I could make a top 100 list period let alone if John Cena would be on it. Pick any of the numbers on the list, say the twenties or the fifties...what is going to make say #56 worse than #55? Or #55 better than #56. How do those reasons make him better/worse than #54 or #57? It would just be impossible. And on top of that, how many of the guys on my list would be on there just because I'm a mark? I'm not going to make a fuckin' top 100 list w/out King Kong Bundy or The Great Muta on it...and if it's a list where guys like Matt Hardy or Christian are on it, I don't think I want to make it anyway. Waste of time. I agree with this 100%. I could start my list with Jerry Lawler being number one but after that I don't even know who I would pick as number two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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