Little questions thread

[Matt D]

And for the love of god did Watts ever try his hardest to replace Dog.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't have time right now to go in-depth replying to all the counter-arguments, but I just wanted to mention that if what Dylan says is true about New Orleans not being a wrestling town before JYD, then I'm quite interested by how he was able to make it take root. What did that process look like? How was he able to take it from "dead" to 21,000? I'm genuinely interested by that, because the Bruno analogy doesn't quite work -- NY and MSG were always big on wrestling. Is there a definitive take on the JYD story? Seems fascinating to me.

[Dylan Waco]

Part of the problem in New Orleans and LA in general was the commission which was notoriously corrupt and you literally had to bribe them to do any kind of business at all. It wasn't worth it to run consistent major shows there by most accounts, though these accounts are from wrestlers and promoters so we can probably assume some hyperbole. In any event to my knowledge JYD was the first major wrestling star there and if you believe the lore Watts paying off the commission set the table for his run.

 

JYD being a black sports star in a black town is where the Bruno comp comes in to me. He was an "ethnic" hero in a sense, but like Bruno a transcendent one.

[Matt D]

He wasn't just an ethnic hero, he was a folk hero.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still think it points towards JYD being a fad in the area rather than anything else. I don't recall seeing figures from WWF in 1985 and 86 that suggested those fans "followed" him there and we know that at least 50% of them stopped going to Superdome shows in 85 and 86. These weren't wrestling fans, they were casual fans. So they did what casual fans always do once the fad is over: something else.

 

I'm not sure if we can say for certain that those fans would have stuck with JYD all the way till 87 and beyond. We have the example of Hogan and we know that even that phenomena had a shelf life.

 

This doesn't do anything to diminish JYD as a draw, it's just to recognise the type of fan he was pulling in.

 

What's harder to say -- I think -- is how many of those 10,000 people still turning up to watch the DiBiases and Duggans in 85 and 86 had been "converted" to become proper wrestling fans. These, ultimately, were the people Watts would have to have been counting on post-JYD.

 

Johnny Sorrow has suggested they were still an overhang of the JYD fans. I'm not sure about that. November 86 is TWO years after JYD and 13,000 fans are still turning up for whatever reason (the prospect of gimmick matches is still appealing, really, to wrestling fans rather than casual fans).

 

RE: "stacked cards" in 84. It is noticable that shows headlined by MX vs. RnR aren't pulling in numbers like those headlined by JYD. I'm sure that having such a loaded card "helped", but the 85 cards aren't necessarily "less stacked" they just don't have JYD on them and there's a difference of 10,000 people. I'm calling those 10,000 who didn't turn up the"true casuals". What were they doing in 1985? Playing Mario on their NESes and whatever else came along that wasn't wrestling. The other 10,000 who were still attending -- even if JYD pulled them in initially -- I'm calling "converts". The fact that shows with Flair defending the title are pulling in 15,000 around that time means that by 85 there was at least a core of people who were "turned on" to wrestling. To the extent, I think, that we can think of them as regular fans.

 

This is really what I'm looking at. What happened to those 10,000 fans? I'm not buying "they realised it was JYD they were into" because it wouldn't take them TWO YEARS to realise that. Product is part of it. The 87 cards aren't as strong as the 85-6 cards, we can see that. But really 7,000 people turned away because of product?

 

There is another explanation that none of us have pointed to yet:

 

- These fans turned to WWF

 

I haven't looked into the numbers, but is this a possibility? We know that WWF was hotter than hot in 1987. If oil was not a factor and if it was "product", they should have been pulling gates over 15,000+ in New Orleans that year. AND they had JYD. Let me have a quick look at Graham's site:

 

WWF @ New Orleans, LA - UNO Lakefront Arena - February 27, 1987

Ricky Steamboat vs. Paul Orndorff

George Steele vs. WWF IC Champion Randy Savage

The Junkyard Dog, Jake Roberts, & Jim Duggan vs. King Kong Bundy, King Harley Race, & Bobby Heenan

 

Unfortunately no numbers here, but that's a 10,000 seater arena. If they sold this out, then the oil explanation is bunkem, if they didn't, then you've got to ask why not with JYD in the headaline and the "product" super hot at this time.

 

This is the biggest of the WWF bookings for New Orleans that year and also the LAST. Why didn't Vince go back to New Orleans in 1987?

 

No booking in 1988 either. But then we get 3 in 1989, two of them at Lakefront Arena.

 

Let's see what Crockett was upto on the New Orleans front:

 

JCP @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - June 13, 1987

 

No numbers or card info

 

UWF @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - August 1, 1987 (5,000)

Shane Doglas pinned Gary Young

Davey Haskins pinned Mike Boyette

Terry Gordy pinned the Angel of Death

Terry Taylor pinned Steve Cox

UWF Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham pinned Shaska Whatley

Rick Steiner defeated Chris Adams in a taped fist match in the 5th round

Sting pinned the Enforcer

UWF Tag Team Champions Brad Armstrong & Tim Horner defeated NWA US Tag Team Champions Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane via reverse decision

Dusty Rhodes & UWF World Champion Steve Williams defeated Eddie Gilbert & Dick Murdoch in a double bullrope match when Williams pinned Gilbert

Michael Hayes, Terry Gordy, & Buddy Roberts defeated Big Bubba, Black Bart, & the Terminator in a steel cage first blood elimination match; Roberts was eliminated; Terminator was eliminated; Hayes and Bart were eliminated; Rogers was eliminated

 

Up from Watts's last show, but this is still bad. And why oh why are they running the Freebirds on top again?Are we saying Crockett's "product" was bad in 1987 too? Or just that fans in this area weren't watching?

 

JCP @ New Orleans, LA - Lakefront Arena - November 26, 1987 (1,610)

Starrcade 87 was shown in closed circuit following the live matches

Jimmy Valiant & Bugsy McGraw defeated Tiger Conway Jr. & Shaska Whatley at 7:32 when Valiant pinned Conway

Ron Simmons pinned Johnny Ace at 4:00 with a flying shoulderblock

Sean Royal pinned Killer Khalifa at 4:11 with a kneedrop off the top

UWF Tag Team Champions the Sheepherders (w/ Johnny Ace) defeated Brad Armstrong & Tim Horner via disqualification when Horner grabbed the flagpole from Ace and used it as a weapon; the match was advertised as Chris Champion & Sean Royal vs. the Sheepherders in a steel cage match but both Champion and the cage did not appear

 

lol

 

Clash of the Champions VI - New Orleans, LA - Superdome - April 2, 1989 (matinee) (5,300)

Shown live on TBS - featured Jim Ross & Michael Hayes on commentary; included Bob Caudle conducting a backstage interview with Ric Flair regarding the night's main event; featured Jim Ross conducting a backstage interview with NWA World Champion Ricky Steamboat after the conclusion of the Flair / Steamboat match in which Steamboat made mention of other top contenders he would be defending against and reviewed footage of Flair's foot being under the bottom rope during the finish of the third fall:

The Samoan Swat Team (w/ Paul E. Dangerously) defeated Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane (w/ Jim Cornette) at 20:33 when Samu pinned Eaton after Fatu hit Eaton over the back of the head with Dangerously's phone behind the referee's back after Eaton hit the Rocket Launcher on Fatu and made the cover

The Great Muta (w/ Gary Hart) pinned Steve Casey with the moonsault at 8:11

The Junkyard Dog pinned Butch Reed (w/ Hiro Matsuda) at 8:55 after Reed collided with Matsuda on the ring apron; prior to the bout, JYD was escorted to the ring by a jazz band

Bob Orton Jr. (w/ Gary Hart) pinned Dick Murdoch at 9:48 when Hart swept Murdoch's legs as he attempted the brainbuster and then held the foot down during the cover; during the bout, Pat O'Connor, Lou Thesz, Sam Mushnick, Buddy Rogers, Gene Kiniski, and Dory Funk Jr. were shown in the crowd

Mike Rotunda & Steve Williams (w/ Kevin Sullivan) defeated NWA Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors (w/ Paul Ellering) to win the titles at 11:37 when Williams pinned Road Warrior Hawk with a roll up and a fast count from referee Teddy Long, moments after Long refused to count Hawk's cover on Rotunda following the Doomsday Device because the champions manhandled him shortly before; after the bout, Jim Ross conducted an interview with the Road Warriors about the controversial decision

Ranger Ross defeated the Iron Sheik (w/ Rip Morgan) via disqualification at 1:55 when Morgan hit Ross with the Iranian flag after Ross hit the Combat Kick; prior to the bout, Ross was propelled down from the rafters with the American flag; after the match, the Junkyard Dog made the save and helped clear the ring

NWA US Tag Team Champions Eddie Gilbert & Rick Steiner (w/ Missy Hyatt) defeated Dan Spivey & Kevin Sullivan at 3:52 when Gilbert pinned Sullivan with an inside cradle after hitting him with Missy's purse; after the bout, Gilbert was double teamed in the ring until Steiner cleared the ring with a chair

NWA World Champion Ricky Steamboat defeated Ric Flair in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match at 55:32, 2-1; fall #1: Flair pinned Steamboat by reversing an inside cradle at 19:33; fall #2: Steamboat forced Flair to submit to a double chicken wing at 34:14; fall #3: Flair pinned Steamboat with the double chicken wing, though Flair's foot was outside the ring during the pinfall; Terry Funk did guest commentary for the bout; prior to the bout, Ross announced the bout between NWA US Champion Lex Luger and Jack Victory was scheduled for that time but in order to give ample time to the main event, and because it could run long, it was pushed back to later in the card; during his introduction, Steamboat came to the ring with his wife Bonnie and baby son (voted Match of the Year by the Wrestling Observer Newsletter) (The Ultimate Ric Flair Collection, Ricky Steamboat: The Life of the Dragon)

Dark matches after the show:

NWA TV Champion Sting defeated Rip Morgan via submission with the Scorpion Deathlock at 3:25 after a Stinger Splash in the corner

NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated Jack Victory via submission with the Torture Rack; late in the bout, Michael Hayes appeared ringside to be in Victory's corner

[Ricky Jackson]

WWF in New Orleans, 1986

 

WWF @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - March 7, 1986 (12,600)

Debut in New Orleans

Hillbilly Jim pinned Iron Mike Sharpe

King Kong Bundy pinned Lanny Pofffo

Uncle Elmer pinned Jesse Ventura

WWF Tag Team Champions Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake defeated Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid

The Junkyard Dog pinned Terry Funk

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned the Iron Sheik

 

WWF @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - May 11, 1986 (3,500)

Jake Roberts pinned Scott McGhee

WWF Women's Champion the Fabulous Moolah defeated Velvet McIntyre

Pedro Morales defeated Bob Orton Jr.

Dory Funk Jr. defeated Tony Atlas

WWF Tag Team Champions Davey Boy Smith & the Dynamite Kid defeated Greg Valentine & Brutus Beefcake

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan & the Junkyard Dog defeated Big John Studd & King Kong Bundy via disqualification when Bobby Heenan interfered

 

WWF @ New Orleans, LA - Superdome - July 5, 1986 (1,800)

David Sammartino vs. Les Thornton

B. Brian Blair vs. Iron Mike Sharpe

Mike Rotundo & Danny Spivey vs. the Moondogs

King Tonga vs. the Iron Sheik

Paul Orndorff vs. Don Muraco

Tito Santana vs. WWF IC Champion Randy Savage

The Junkyard Dog vs. Adrian Adonis

 

WWF @ New Orleans, LA - September 1986 (2,700)

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan vs. Paul Orndorff

 

Not good.

[JerryvonKramer]

To me, not only does this reinforce my idea that JYD was a fad, but also it lends some extra weight to the oil explanation.

 

The "product" explanation might explain a dip in Mid-South's numbers from 86 to 87, but can it account for WWF and Crockett not drawing there either? At a time when both companies were ripping shit up nationally? External factors have to have played a decent part.

 

We've already seen that the Nola fans weren't exactly hardcores, so you'd expect them to be turning up for WWF shows, especially with JYD and Hogan on the card. But they didn't.

 

What's more convincing to you? That 1. It's because Mr. Wrestling II missed a kneelift or 2. It's because the economy was suffering?

[KrisZ]

JYD was brought into all the major territories at least once before he left for WWF

 

GCW, Boesch, JCP, Memphis, World Class, & Florida and he was always portrayed as a huge star.

[Ricky Jackson]

The WWF didn't draw very well in the South as a whole in the 80s, so the NO numbers shouldn't be looked at necessarily as proof of the oil glut hurting business.

[BrickHithouse]

I can definitely believe the oil glut affected business in some way.

 

Where Watts loses credibility is when he says you couldn't even find a hooker in New Orleans.

[Matt D]

Does that first Superdome show sync up with first WWF shows in various areas from the era before numbers quickly dropped?

[Dylan Waco]

The WWF didn't draw very well in the South as a whole in the 80s, so the NO numbers shouldn't be looked at necessarily as proof of the oil glut hurting business.

Bingo

 

JYD was not a "fad" in any meaningful sense of the term.

[JerryvonKramer]

But Crockett didn't draw well in New Orleans either. Are we going to say they didn't draw well in the south too?

 

That's three different promotions with three very different products failing to draw in the same town and yet you're still content to lean on the explanation that says "it was the product"? Ok then.

[Dylan Waco]

It's really not hard to find cases in wrestling history where a town collapses because a hot star leaves and/or the product isn't delivering what the fans want to see. There is little reason to believe N.O. is different.

[JerryvonKramer]

But Dylan, this collapse wasn't immediate was it? It took a full 2 years after JYD left for the attendences to go through the floor in NO. If it was all down to JYD, why were 10,000+ still turning up in 85 and 86? That's quite a delayed reaction isn't it. What? They suddenly woke up one day and figured out that it was JYD and not wrestling that they were into?

 

(Also, JYD was there on those WWF cards and barely 2,000 people turned up.)

[Bix]

But Dylan, this collapse wasn't immediate was it? It took a full 2 years after JYD left for the attendences to go through the floor in NO. If it was all down to JYD, why were 10,000+ still turning up in 85 and 86? That's quite a delayed reaction isn't it. What? They suddenly woke up one day and figured out that it was JYD and not wrestling that they were into?

That's because the Superdome Spectacular shows, which started a few years before JYD came to the territory, were an established draw as loaded shows with big name outside talent, big blowoff matches, etc. The weekly shows at UNO Lakefront Arena are a different story.

[jdw]

Bottomline:

 

From the original theories on the table, we can categorise them into four groups:

 

1. Hotshotting and / or the product wasn't drawing (DiBiase, Loss, jdw)

 

4. JYD left (various)

I just want to be very clear on my own comments about the Product.

 

JYD leaving is one of the elements of the Product Not Drawing.

 

I really don't care to have my view on what killed Mid South / UWF be lumped in with hot shotting. That is a subset of the Product, as are how it was booked, who was pushed, who was brought in, who was bounced, who left, etc.

 

I'm being expansive, not narrow. 95% of the time companies drop or die, it's because of the Product. It stops pulling in the fans.

 

In turn, people in the Business are always looking for reasons to avoid blaming the product for the decline.

 

John

[jdw]

JYD being a black sports star in a black town is where the Bruno comp comes in to me. He was an "ethnic" hero in a sense, but like Bruno a transcendent one.

*ding* *ding* *ding*

 

I didn't articulate it as well when I tossed out that Bruno of New Orleans comment. Folks wanted to pigeonhole Bruno initially as an ethnic draw, but then he kept drawing... and drawing... and drawing. It clearly was more than just ethnic fans coming out for either.

 

John

[jdw]

To me, not only does this reinforce my idea that JYD was a fad, but also it lends some extra weight to the oil explanation.

This is the most embarrassing thing I've seen on PWO since Resident Evil went bye-bye.

 

John

[jdw]

But Crockett didn't draw well in New Orleans either. Are we going to say they didn't draw well in the south too?

JCP didn't draw in a lot of cities. It's meaningless.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm being expansive, not narrow. 95% of the time companies drop or die, it's because of the Product. It stops pulling in the fans.

 

In turn, people in the Business are always looking for reasons to avoid blaming the product for the decline.

I actually question this received wisdom. And I question it pretty hard.

 

Have you read Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow? In that he explains how people are very drawn to coherent explanations for certain phenomena. It helps to keep the world neat in people's minds.

 

So it figures that hardcore wrestling fans will always look to "the product" as the chief factor for declining numbers. In this formulation there's a direct correlation between "the product" and business. But is that really the case and what are your reasons for being so sure that it is?

 

If we look down the years, can we really say that the hottest years in the box office coincide with the hottest feuds and angles? We'd like to think so, but it isn't borne out. It just isn't. It seems to me that wrestling hits booms and slumps. That isn't always dictated by the product. Any of us can go and find great stuff in years when the box office was through the floor. Any of us can find evidence of awful stuff drawing just because wrestling happened to be hot at that time.

 

But you say that 95%, I'll repeat that NINETY-FIVE PERCENT of the time when a company dies it's because of the product. That's a strong conviction jdw and I'd like to know why you think that with such certainty.

 

Is that the case in all industries in your view, or just wrestling?

 

To me, not only does this reinforce my idea that JYD was a fad, but also it lends some extra weight to the oil explanation.

This is the most embarrassing thing I've seen on PWO since Resident Evil went bye-bye.

Do you think it's possible for you to discuss something with me, just once, with out this crushing condescension? You seem intent on escalating something, I'm only interested in getting to the bottom of this issue.

 

Your refusal to accept external factors in the decline of Mid-South is tantamount to a faith position. JYD's figures for 85 and 86 were hardly setting the world on fire either. It doesn't look like "drawing and drawing and drawing" to me. It looks like a 4-year stretch where he burned brightly, and then for whatever reason, when he went to WWF, it was over. At least in terms of New Orleans. We haven't been looking at JYD in terms of being a national draw or what he did in other states.

[Dylan Waco]

But Dylan, this collapse wasn't immediate was it? It took a full 2 years after JYD left for the attendences to go through the floor in NO. If it was all down to JYD, why were 10,000+ still turning up in 85 and 86? That's quite a delayed reaction isn't it. What? They suddenly woke up one day and figured out that it was JYD and not wrestling that they were into?

 

(Also, JYD was there on those WWF cards and barely 2,000 people turned up.)

The WWF shows had no strong angles for JYD. He was not a feature of week-to-week tv and build. There is a massive, massive difference.

 

"Delayed" reactions aren't uncommon. The AWA slowly died over the span of several years.

[ohtani's jacket]

Do you think it's possible for you to discuss something with me, just once, with out this crushing condescension? You seem intent on escalating something, I'm only interested in getting to the bottom of this issue.

Why do you keep engaging him in conversation? I can't be the only one who finds this shit painful reading.

[jdw]

I'm being expansive, not narrow. 95% of the time companies drop or die, it's because of the Product. It stops pulling in the fans.

 

In turn, people in the Business are always looking for reasons to avoid blaming the product for the decline.

I actually question this received wisdom. And I question it pretty hard.

 

Have you read Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow?

Yes. And I'm laughing at you applying it to pro wrestling.

 

 

 

So it figures that hardcore wrestling fans will always look to "the product" as the chief factor for declining numbers. In this formulation there's a direct correlation between "the product" and business. But is that really the case and what are your reasons for being so sure that it is?

Actually, pro wrestling fans tend to grasp at other reasons than the Product for declining business:

 

It's Jim Herd's fault!

 

Eric gave out all those big contracts!

 

Billionaire Ted stole all of Vince's talent and was predatory!

 

ROH is GREAT~! and WWE Fans are too stupid to see it and that's why our revenue sucks!

 

WWE decline when Vince had to soften the product up due to sponsors and the network!

 

The Suits did in WCW by tying up Eric's hands!

 

The Torch Plumblers tried to kill ECW by sending the Mass Transit Tape to the PPV Distributors!

 

Good god... ask around these boards and people will be able to tell you dozens of insane bullshit reasons that hardcore fans came up with to explain why their favorite promotions went in the shitter.

 

In reality, it was the Product. They just don't want to admit that the product they loved or clung to like Linus to a blankey either sucked, or wasn't good enough to get/build/maintain a fan base.

 

I think one of the good things about the posters here is that they sift through those bullshit explanations, and usually find the trail that leads back to something that falls under the massive umbrella of The Product.

 

 

If we look down the years, can we really say that the hottest years in the box office coincide with the hottest feuds and angles?

Who said anything about the hottest feuds and angles.

 

Hogan-Kamala wasn't a hot feud or hot angle. It was a bridge program for Hogan between the massive angle with Orndorff and the massive angle with Andre. Yet...

 

It broke the records just set by Hogan-Orndorff in several cities.

 

Why?

 

Because WWF Product was fucking red hot in those cities.

 

Why?

 

Because Hulk Hogan was the single biggest element of WWF Product, and he was fucking red hot.

 

Because Vince was at the top of his game promotionally, and ran a well organized shit (especially relative to the clusterfucks of other wrestling companies), and the WWF was delivering what their fans wanted to see.

 

Personally... I preferred JCP product at the time the Hogan-Kamala feud was going around the horn. But I've also over time come around to see that the WWF product at the time flat out delivered what that massive WWF fan base wanted.

 

 

We'd like to think so, but it isn't borne out. It just isn't. It seems to me that wrestling hits booms and slumps. That isn't always dictated by the product. Any of us can go and find great stuff in years when the box office was through the floor. Any of us can find evidence of awful stuff drawing just because wrestling happened to be hot at that time.

You're thinking vastly too narrow on the concept of "great product" and "awful product".

 

I personally think Twilight, in book and movie form, is FUCKING AWFUL.

 

But I'm not so delusional to think that it's Awful Product. This shit sold tons of books, has a massive fan base, and sold tons of movie tickets. It's Great Product for its massive fan base.

 

Okay... okay... okay... that's not an analogy that works great for you, since you're not a Twilight fan. Let's try another:

 

You think Demolition is GREAT PRODUCT~! I think from a personal taste standpoint, they're shit.

 

In reality, neither of us is fully right.

 

Demolition wasn't strong product for the WWF, such as Hogan or say Savage when Savage was champ. But they weren't Awful... at least until say 1990 when most non-Hogan elements of the product didn't do really good business for the WWF. They weren't kind of good.

 

 

But you say that 95%, I'll repeat that NINETY-FIVE PERCENT of the time when a company dies it's because of the product. That's a strong conviction jdw and I'd like to know why you think that with such certainty.

In pro wrestling? Sure. 95% of the times major territorial or national promotions went in the crapper, it was the Product.

 

 

Is that the case in all industries in your view, or just wrestling?

I could give a shit about other businesses. We're talking about pro wrestling.

 

To me, not only does this reinforce my idea that JYD was a fad, but also it lends some extra weight to the oil explanation.

This is the most embarrassing thing I've seen on PWO since Resident Evil went bye-bye.

Do you think it's possible for you to discuss something with me, just once, with out this crushing condescension? You seem intent on escalating something, I'm only interested in getting to the bottom of this issue.

This particular statement is gobsmacking.

 

People took the time to explain JYD to you, making it very clear he wasn't a fad in NO/Mid South, not a fluke.

 

Then you shit on it with that comment. So no... I'm not going to soft sell it. Embarrassing, stupid comment.

 

 

Your refusal to accept external factors in the decline of Mid-South is tantamount to a faith position.

Who said external factors weren't an impact.

 

Did JYD drop dead?

 

No. Vince tossed a shitload of money at him to jump. That's an external factor that deeply impacted Watts' product.

 

He did the same thing in late 1986 / early 1987 by constantly chasing after Duggan, making Duggan so annoying that Watts finally told his top babyface to head for the WWF if he really wanted to, despite having him under contract. External factor than impacted the Product.

 

 

JYD's figures for 85 and 86 were hardly setting the world on fire either.

My thought would be to look at Hogan's house show figures in WCW in 1994 & 1995, taking out the PPV and Clash numbers, and tell me how they look compared to what he did in the WWF.

 

"Holy shit! Hogan sucked! He was just a fad!"

 

Well, that would be embarrassing as well.

 

 

It doesn't look like "drawing and drawing and drawing" to me. It looks like a 4-year stretch where he burned brightly, and then for whatever reason, when he went to WWF, it was over. At least in terms of New Orleans.

It's hardly the only instance where a wrestler left one promotion and wasn't accepted by the fans when he used by another promotion to draw in the same territory.

 

Example?

 

Probably worthwhile to see what the WWF drew in JCP with the likes of Valentine, Steamboat, Piper and other former JCP stars.

 

We have this conception of Hogan going into AWA Land where he had once been a huge draw and in turn drawing huge there for the WWF. That's *Hogan*. It's why he and Jim Londos are 1-2 all-time. They did shit that others couldn't.

 

We can't judge JYD by Hogan's standards. No one here is saying he's Hogan. We're saying he was a massive regional star in Mid South. That's where is fans wanted to see him.

 

As far as 4 years...

 

1998 Mania: Austin over Shawn

2001 Mania: Austin over Rock

 

That's the peak of Austin. Three years, and that's not even factoring in that he missed a massive chunk of that period due to injury. Elements of the WWF's business started declining after after Mania 2001.

 

Austin was a fad? Or 3 years is just flukey shit?

 

Good lord...

 

We haven't been looking at JYD in terms of being a national draw or what he did in other states.

No shit. Because it's not relevant to what he drew for Watts.

 

Flair drew a shitload for JCP at his peak.

 

He drew dick for Vince.

 

That he drew dick for Vince doesn't at all mean that Ric wasn't a big draw for a number of years in JCP's core cities.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I think 92 WCW was really awesome. Catered very well to my interests. But it did not cater well to the interest of consumers. Were there external factors? Yes. But SMW was doing well in the same region and there is no way to excuse how poorly they were doing. The only explanation that works is "not enough people liked the product." Just because I think it's great and hardcore fans now really love the Dangerous Alliance doesn't mean it was good for business.

 

 

 

I don't know that I would use John's tone there and I enjoy discussing wrestling with you Jerry, but I find it bothersome that JYD's run is being casually referred to as a fad. Was Hogan's run in the AWA a fad? Austin's in the WWF? Mr. Wrestling II in Georgia? Freebirds in World Class? Four years is an awfully good run in wrestling. Not everyone is Lawler or Colon as a homesteader or Andre as an attraction all over for years. Calling JYD's run a "fad" is weak and though I'm about as un-PC a guy as you'll find, but there I can't help but read it and think "would anyone say this if a white guy had that sort of record?"