JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 jdw, how can I be wrong when all I've said is that there are multiple factors on the table? Read the thread from Kayfabe Memories. There are lots of people from that area, who also lived through the period you are talking about, who don't seem to agree with you. All I'm saying is that your take is not the only take and that you are wrong to write as if your word is gospel, or indeed that there is a gospel in a case like this. Also, Bill Watts doesn't point to the oil glut as the ONLY factor, but as one of a few. All that aside though, I don't entirely understand how you are telling me I'm "wrong" when I haven't even advanced a position on this yet. I'm wrong for saying that the version of events you are giving me isn't the only one I should be considering? Is that it? Come on dude, you're the history major here -- is that really a "wrong" position for me to take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 This Zbyszko's history of the AWA that jdw keeps mentioning sounds....frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Well, maybe Larry's shoot interview only focused on the WWF. The highlight clips on youtube were enough to make my head spin that I never checked out the hole thing. Still... would you take anything Larry said of his time in the AWA as the gospel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I think Shoots are great at raising interesting questions. Then you have to come here and have them ripped apart by people who know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Here's your original post: I'm just watching the second volume of the Jim Cornette-Bill Watts ROH interview. This is where he's going on and on about the "mega-trend" aka the oil crisis that put him on the verge of bankruptcy. He is saying that his gates in Oklahoma City and Tulsa went from 100k a week to less than 20k a week, and to boot in New Orleans they couldn't find any hookers in the French Quarter. He was losing 50k a week! I don't really see that particular oil crisis mentioned much on tv, in documentaries, historical accounts of the 80s etc. From the way Watts is talking, that had to have been a massive deal for that section of the country. Was it underreported because it was removed from the East and West coasts? I know in this country, there are often complaints about London bias -- i.e. a problem isn't treated as a major deal until it hits London / the South East. I was wondering if there was a bit of that with this mid-80s oil crisis. Point me to any factor other than the "oil crisis" that you cite as causing his promotion to be put on the verge of BK. In the very first post that follow, Loss pointed to "product". Which you wouldn't buy, and won't let go of the oil factor. Come on Jerry... don't pull a Watts and rewrite the history of this thread. We actually can go back and read what happened a day ago, as opposed to Watts being able to pull the wool over your eyes on something that happened nearly 30 years ago. Christ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I think Shoots are great at raising interesting questions. Then you have to come here and have them ripped apart by people who know more. The analogy would be this: I love watching MLP, and she raises interesting questions about how hot she still is in her mid 40s. But then again, I know that chances of me ever banging MLP are 0.00%. That's pro wrestling shoots. And frankly I'd rather watch MLP because at least she can act here ass off, while pro wrestling shoots just leave me rolling my eyes. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 You're good at pointing back to original posts. But that's not how this conversation went down jdw. I'm not going to re-summarise it because it's right there for everyone to read. However, this particular exchange isn't getting me any closer to answering the sorts of questions I want to answer so I'm not interested in taking it any further. I am interested in building a fuller picture of the decline of UWF. So far the Kayfabe Memories thread has provided the greatest insight into that. If I find anything else, I'll post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I love watching MLP John I would have never pegged you as a Brony, John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 I love watching MLP John I would have never pegged you as a Brony, John. Nor would have I thought John was a follower of the French right-wing extremist party the Front National. MLP, still hot in her 40's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 I wonder which of the two he'd be more offended by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 I'm no wrestling historian by any means nor am I fully educated on the 80s wrestling scene but I can't help think that promotions that decided too stand alone and go national ultimately fell over because... A) the creative peak had passed? And only the people in those towns saw it. So when it is rehashed for a national audience the fans you rely on to fill your houses have already seen it before. WCCW and Mid South definitely fall into this, maybe more territories. B ) lack of real star power post 1984 available to draw outside of JCP and WWF and obviously Memphis had Lawler and Dundee? C) like someone mentioned before, travel is a huge issue. Memphis stayed within the area they knew and came though the expansion of JCP and WWF harmed but still intact. I'm sure the oil played a huge part but can't help think the 3 thing listed above are as big if not bigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Here's your original post: I'm just watching the second volume of the Jim Cornette-Bill Watts ROH interview. This is where he's going on and on about the "mega-trend" aka the oil crisis that put him on the verge of bankruptcy. He is saying that his gates in Oklahoma City and Tulsa went from 100k a week to less than 20k a week, and to boot in New Orleans they couldn't find any hookers in the French Quarter. He was losing 50k a week! I don't really see that particular oil crisis mentioned much on tv, in documentaries, historical accounts of the 80s etc. From the way Watts is talking, that had to have been a massive deal for that section of the country. Was it underreported because it was removed from the East and West coasts? I know in this country, there are often complaints about London bias -- i.e. a problem isn't treated as a major deal until it hits London / the South East. I was wondering if there was a bit of that with this mid-80s oil crisis. Point me to any factor other than the "oil crisis" that you cite as causing his promotion to be put on the verge of BK. In the very first post that follow, Loss pointed to "product". Which you wouldn't buy, and won't let go of the oil factor. Come on Jerry... don't pull a Watts and rewrite the history of this thread. We actually can go back and read what happened a day ago, as opposed to Watts being able to pull the wool over your eyes on something that happened nearly 30 years ago. Christ... Gonna defend Jerry here. Look further down. He actually makes a post where he compiles the 4 reasons that people have come up with. Three are wrestling figures (Watts, Taylor, Dibiase) who blame it on outside forces or off-screen forces. Interestingly enough, the 4th reason from a fan perspective (Loss, jdw) was that the product was to blame. I think Jerry was hoping that you, KrisZ or Dylan (or some data compiler) would be able to find some figures to refute the wrestlers claims, not that he was endorsing any of the positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I love watching MLP John I would have never pegged you as a Brony, John. I suspect you have the wrong MLP. The one I love... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Am I the only one who had to Google around to figure out John's MLP is Mary-Louise Parker (Weeds) and Matt D's MLP is My Little Pony? Oh, and I forgot about El-P's MLP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Actually French Politics can be really interesting. You often get a massive ton of power in one party which can lead to sweeping changes like in 1981 with Mitterrand which lead to a crazy nationalization of everything and then kind of an embarrassing retrench a few yeas later. And yes, in a lot of ways the Front National is the most interesting thing of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Gonna defend Jerry here. Look further down. He actually makes a post where he compiles the 4 reasons that people have come up with. Three are wrestling figures (Watts, Taylor, Dibiase) who blame it on outside forces or off-screen forces. Interestingly enough, the 4th reason from a fan perspective (Loss, jdw) was that the product was to blame. I think Jerry was hoping that you, KrisZ or Dylan (or some data compiler) would be able to find some figures to refute the wrestlers claims, not that he was endorsing any of the positions. He kind of got around to that after getting hammered on the Watts one, so he called in the Calvary of More Shoot Interviews to bolster his position... or at least try. Let's see how the worked out... 1. Oil mega-trend (Watts) Jerry's original theory which he fought tooth and nail for. 2. JYD left so gates were down and / or the product wasn't what people wanted to see anymore (jdw and Loss) That's a narrow view on what we've said. In general, the product wasn't enough to draw people to shows. That is always the reason attendance goes in the crapper. 3. Dundee hotshotted the territory (DiBiase) That is the Product. It would be like saying Steph and WWE Creative aren't part of the Product: they write and book the shit. 4. Costs were out of control (Taylor) Costs aren't a problem if you can draw. WCW's costs were "out of control"... except they weren't when the company was making money hand over fist. Once ratings went down, house show business went down and PPV went down, they couldn't cover the costs. The UWF's drawing went to shit. Why? Not because of the "costs". The "costs" (i.e. the cost of running the promotion) being out of control don't keep fans from buying tickets. I'm not sure why attendance figures are needed. Jerry admits, thanks to his shoot interviews, that attendance went to shit. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Am I the only one who had to Google around to figure out John's MLP is Mary-Louise Parker (Weeds) Right clicking on the image and seeing the link should do it: her name was right in it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I imagine he meant googling before you posted the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I'm not that sophisticated. But thanks for the posting the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I suspect you have the wrong MLP. The one I love... John Hey, I almost posted *that* very picture as a way to apologize for subjcting you to the horror of the French MLP. I would have made a tired remark about "I want to be that snake" too. You know how much I love Mary-Louise too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 And yes, in a lot of ways the Front National is the most interesting thing of all. The most embarrasing too. Although we never quite got a guy like Berlusconi at the helm, thank God ! "Italians do it better". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think my two favorite pictures of all time are MLP with the Snake and Kinski with the Snake. Of course I was an impressionable 15 year old when the Nastassja one was done. And yes... I know you love MLP, and was saddened that you no sold my original post. I was trolling specifically for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines. I suspect the markets with appropriate tennis venues have better indoor venues for wrestling nearby. For example, the tennis stadium at the Home Depot Center in LA hosts a couple boxing cards every year, but that venue only seats about 8K. 8K seems like too large a venue for indies and TNA, but not big enough for summer slam. That said, it is a pretty good place for boxing, so I don't think your idea is too far fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 And yes... I know you love MLP, and was saddened that you no sold my original post. I was trolling specifically for you. Blame Matt. If not for his own little joke, I would have gone straight to the snake picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 Silly question, Why aren't Tennis venues used for outdoor wrestling events? The more I look at them, the more it seems like it would be a good size for a ring and good sight lines. I suspect the markets with appropriate tennis venues have better indoor venues for wrestling nearby. For example, the tennis stadium at the Home Depot Center in LA hosts a couple boxing cards every year, but that venue only seats about 8K. 8K seems like too large a venue for indies and TNA, but not big enough for summer slam. That said, it is a pretty good place for boxing, so I don't think your idea is too far fetched. For what it's worth, the "Roman Coliseum" at WrestleMania 9 was a converted tennis venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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