Little questions thread

[El-P]

As well remembered as the Dangerous Alliance is by hardcores now, it wasn't really much from a booking point of view. The matches were largely disposable in the big picture, and never mentioned again. After the initial formation, the Dangerous Alliance never really did an interview as a full group.

This is what struck me the most when watching WCW 92. As much as the matches were fun because they were so many quality workers involved, the booking was just unspectacular as all hell. They threw good workers together and let them had matches. They was never any big angles with dramatical follow ups nor big storylines inside the matches. There were barely any great promos from Heyman to build the feuds. Really, it was all about random matches between members of the Alliance and WCW, without much thought put into it. Lot of fun to watch on TV, but without much depth at all. With good booking it could have been amazing. In the end it was just good matches.

[Matt D]

And the stuff that was good, like the nose-breaking angle with Steamboat stumbled into the stalking Madusa angle.

[jdw]

I believe one of the points made earlier is that JYD can't be dismissed as just drawing the Ethnic Fans (i.e. Black Folk) to the cards: JYD draw blacks, but he also drew lots of fans across ethnic lines. Hence the references to Bruno, who also was more than just drawing "Italians" to WWWF shows.

 

Watts is the one who got caught up in it being a Black Thing. He still was hung up on that in the 90s. He really didn't get his own fanbase, and what it was that connected the Dog (or even later Duggan) to the fans.

I thought Watts tried to capitalise on the prominence of black sporting stars by pushing a black wrestler as a main eventer. Watts saw a trend, created a fad, and kept trying to replicate it with black football players.

Watts thought he saw a trend, thought he created a fad, and tried to replicate it.

 

Just because Watts thought JYD drew because he was Black doesn't mean JYD drew just because he was black. After all, this was a promoter who tried to push Ron Simmons on top to try to replicate the "trend" he saw. That failed like pretty much all of his non-JYD attempts to build on this trend he saw in his head.

 

Vince thought Hogan got over due to being juiced up and huge. So he pushed Warrior... Sid... Lex... Nash... Sid again. They failed relative to Bret, Shawn and Austin. Trend? Or Hogan?

 

 

JYD may have drawn a melting pot of fans, he may have even been a cultural icon for a time, but he was largely forgotten by the time he died.

Well... seemed to get obits

 

That's hardly exhaustive.

 

It's also highly unlikely that in 1998 when he died that he was largely forgotten, anymore than any wrestler of his level of push in the WWF Expansion was forgotten by 1998.

 

 

The Monkees = Fad

The Beatles = moved past Fad into having staying power

 

The only reason JYD stopped drawing in Mid South in 1984 (after drawing there in 1980 and 1981 and 1982 and 1983 and early 1984) is because he jumped to the WWF. He had staying power.

We don't know if JYD would have kept drawing in Mid South,

That's not my point.

 

We know why JYD stopped drawing for Mid South: he walked out. He left the promotion.

 

We can speculate on why Flair in 1987 started to draw less and less for JCP and then WCW. Flair, booking, bad promoting, weak opponents, fans getting bored of Flair... we can toss around a bunch.

 

With JYD, we know why he stopped drawing for Mid South after doing strong business from 1980-84: he left the promotion.

 

Hell, he even draw after he left: Cornette credits JYD for that last 20K+ Super Dome where King subbed for him. Dog helped sell those tickets.

 

 

but in any event it didn't happen and it doesn't make JYD any less of a fad. There are plenty of reasons why fads end and plenty of reasons why they could've kept on drawing if things had been different. Wrestling booms are generally fads where wrestling is suddenly more popular than usual. If a ton of people are going to the wrestling because they're into JYD, then JYD leaves and people stop going, that was a fad.

It was a Draw, Daniel.

 

It's no different from Chigusa retiring and a whole bunch of schoolgirls not giving a shit about wrestling anymore.

Chiggy and Dump were the draws. They over time left, and the Product was less interesting to the Fans. Business went back up to even higher levels when the Product was something that drew in fans.

 

John

[jdw]

There were a lot of quick changes in direction too. Watts didn't really let things finish well before switching things about.

 

That's a big one.

 

It's not like business turned around in the Kip Frey era, though we really enjoy the product as hardcore fans. But the company was moving in a certain direction away from the mess of the Post-Flair/Herd Wars Era. Then Watts came and spun it off in another direction, and had certain focuses (including Omni business) and pitched certain things (like the Dangerous Alliance).

 

I get why Frey was tossed to the curb: the company was losing tons, and Kip in a short time handed out some contracts that on the surface were a problem when you're losing tons.

 

It's also not a lock that "quality wrestling" to us was going to draw anymore than it did in 1989. :/

 

John

[KrisZ]

Take it from someone who was a ton of shows at that time there were a lot of people still pissed about the way Flair left. Sure Flair wasn't doing lights out business on top he was still the man and him going to WWF was a huge blow.

 

The fans still wanted to love Luger and his heel turn was pretty much a flop.

 

Dangerous Alliance was awesome yes but Rude wasn't a lead heel.

 

Jake Roberts could've worked but we know how that turned out.

[BrickHithouse]

Shockingly JYD didn't pop any big numbers in '92 WCW

 

(I'll leave now)

[goc]

Shockingly JYD didn't pop any big numbers in '92 WCW

 

(I'll leave now)

Is this supposed to be evidence that he was never a draw?

[BrickHithouse]

No no, nothing of the sort.

 

I just remember a few times where they didn't even trust him to get into the ring - attacking him in the aisle one time (WrestleWar ?). Then at a house show here in Wichita 05-07-1992, he came out for his match, could barely walk, barely made it into the ring, then won by count-out when Mr. Hughes "was too scared to come out for the match".

 

He still got a GIANT pop when he came out and might have been the biggest pop of the night.

 

Probably should have explained earlier.

[Dylan Waco]

Take it from someone who was a ton of shows at that time there were a lot of people still pissed about the way Flair left. Sure Flair wasn't doing lights out business on top he was still the man and him going to WWF was a huge blow.

 

The fans still wanted to love Luger and his heel turn was pretty much a flop.

 

Dangerous Alliance was awesome yes but Rude wasn't a lead heel.

 

Jake Roberts could've worked but we know how that turned out.

 

I don't think Jake would have been any better than Rude.

 

Also you are dead on about the fans being pissed about the way Flair left and not being able to cheer Luger. As a kid at the time it was obvious that the fans wanted Luger as a lead face.

[Loss]

Jerry, one other thing I'd like to clarify is that good is not universally good, and bad is not universally bad. "Product", as it's being described, is the composite of the entire presentation. Some factors will be stronger than others if they stand out in a particular way. But there is plenty of good stuff in bad periods, and plenty of bad stuff in good periods. We've seen wrestling promoters who don't understand their own audience blame the good for the bad periods, or credit bad for the good periods, plenty of times.

[Matt D]

They turned Hughes with JYD

[evilclown]

This was massive dejavu. This could have been 1998 with the role of Jerry played by "Fat Tony", "NetCop", or "Kristina L. Kendall and Jonathan E. Snowden."

[Johnny Sorrow]

. I very much doubt that the millions of people who continued to tune into that show after 1977 were all hardcore "loyal" Happy Days fans, they weren't. They were mostly "casuals" who were sticking on the TV who were just ok with watching it. So that show somehow was able to continue drawing an audience despite the fact it had mostly gone to shit. Why is that? It's because the genre of middling mainstream sitcoms are "over" with the US audience en masse. Mainstream sitcoms are not a fad. Happy Days wasn't a fad.

I believe I made it clear that that it wasn't until 1980 after Richie and Ralph left is when people really started dropping off watching Happy Days. 1977 was still part of the boom years. And the people who stayed watching weren't casual fans. They were hardcore Happy Days fans like me. And by the time Happy Days went off the air the sitcom had had it's big comeback, thanks to The Cosby Show on NBC. Happy Days actually survived the days when the sitcom was dead, like you say, but because of people who stuck with both the show, and the fact that it was instilled that Tuesday nights on ABC you tuned in. Who's The Boss was a hit because people expected a good family friendly show on ABC on that night.

 

[Matt D]

I would like to see Parv talk about Tony Danza for 3000 words.

 

I would like Johnny to talk about Welcome Back Kotter next.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I would like to see Parv talk about Tony Danza for 3000 words.

 

I would like Johnny to talk about Welcome Back Kotter next.

He WAS a proven Mid Carder thanks to Taxi, and when he got his shot at the Main Event he delivered.

 

edit: Kotter, eh?.....

[khawk20]

I believe I made it clear that that it wasn't until 1980 after Richie and Ralph left is when people really started dropping off watching Happy Days. And the people who stayed watching weren't casual fans. They were hardcore Happy Days fans like me.

This, and I too, am a former hardcore Happy Days fan.

 

For me, Happy Days decline = AWA Decline. Show wasn't the same after Ritchie and Ralph left. AWA wasn't the same after 1987 for a variety of reasons. I still watched, and it wasn't all bad by any means, but it was the hardcores watching the AWA in the last few years, too.

[Matt D]

Kotter is all about vaudeville style wordplay. It's aged amazingly well

[Johnny Sorrow]

Well, the fall of Kotter was directly related to the red hot Sweathog stable having to change as Vinnie Barbarino broke out as a solo star. They brought in Beauregarde "Beau" De LaBarre as a replacement, but no one accepted the Lance Von Erich type replacement, as he wasn't considered a real Sweathog. Also, attempts at tweaking them into more of a blowjob team by dropping Horshack's awkward look and Epstein's toughness wasn't accepted. Add in that the lead face/ manager of the stable missing dates due to contract problems, and the show fizzled as fast as it hit big. It drew big, and is fondly remembered, but like many promotions...it was killed by it's own success.

[goodhelmet]

My favorite episode was when Freddy painted a mural of the naked Mrs. Kotter. I have no idea if that was peak or post-peak.

[Johnny Sorrow]

My favorite episode was when Freddy painted a mural of the naked Mrs. Kotter. I have no idea if that was peak or post-peak.

It was Epstein

[ohtani's jacket]

Watts thought he saw a trend, thought he created a fad, and tried to replicate it.

 

Just because Watts thought JYD drew because he was Black doesn't mean JYD drew just because he was black. After all, this was a promoter who tried to push Ron Simmons on top to try to replicate the "trend" he saw. That failed like pretty much all of his non-JYD attempts to build on this trend he saw in his head.

 

Vince thought Hogan got over due to being juiced up and huge. So he pushed Warrior... Sid... Lex... Nash... Sid again. They failed relative to Bret, Shawn and Austin. Trend? Or Hogan?

But Watts and Ladd pushed JYD initially because he was black just as Vince pushed Hogan because of his look. The fact that neither promoter could replicate their success with similar looking workers indicates that Hogan and JYD were special, but you can be special and still be a fad. The implication from you guys seems to be that a fad is something superficial, but I don't think that's necessarily true. My point about not being able to replicate the success of JYD is that the fans wanted to see JYD not a black football turned wrestler. If the fans had been interested in seeing black wrestlers main event then it would have been a trend. I don't think Jerry/Parv intended to diminish JYD's drawing power in any way, I think he was was simply trying to explain why so many people jumped on the JYD bandwagon.

 

 

That's hardly exhaustive.

 

It's also highly unlikely that in 1998 when he died that he was largely forgotten, anymore than any wrestler of his level of push in the WWF Expansion was forgotten by 1998.

C'mon, everyone of note gets obits when they die. Saying he wasn't forgotten anymore than any wrestler of his level of push in the WWF expansion isn't exactly high praise for a guy who was meant to have been an important draw.

 

 

That's not my point.

 

We know why JYD stopped drawing for Mid South: he walked out. He left the promotion.

 

We can speculate on why Flair in 1987 started to draw less and less for JCP and then WCW. Flair, booking, bad promoting, weak opponents, fans getting bored of Flair... we can toss around a bunch.

 

With JYD, we know why he stopped drawing for Mid South after doing strong business from 1980-84: he left the promotion.

 

Hell, he even draw after he left: Cornette credits JYD for that last 20K+ Super Dome where King subbed for him. Dog helped sell those tickets.

Sure, but we don't know what would have happened in 1985, 1986, 1987, and so on. And we know by 1993 that he couldn't get booked in a national promotion anymore. Again, I don't understand why we can't acknowledge that his time in the spotlight was temporary by any measure.

 

 

It was a Draw, Daniel.[/quotes]

 

Fads draw. Why wouldn't you want to be a fad?

 

It's no different from Chigusa retiring and a whole bunch of schoolgirls not giving a shit about wrestling anymore.

Chiggy and Dump were the draws. They over time left, and the Product was less interesting to the Fans. Business went back up to even higher levels when the Product was something that drew in fans.

 

The schoolgirls didn't care about the product. They cared about Lioness and Chigusa. If they'd cared about the product they would've kept watching to see what new stars emerged. When my parents went to watch wrestling in the late 70s/early 80s when I was a child, they didn't care about the product. It was because wrestling was popular and a fun date. When my classmates got into wrestling in elementary school it wasn't because of the product it was because everybody was watching it. When people started taking interest in it again during high school it wasn't because of the product it was because it was suddenly cool again and there was nostalgia value in it having been big in elementary school. Japanese girls stopped watching wrestling after Dump and Chigusa retired and never returned despite the Matsunagas' attempts to create new idols and new villains. It was a fad, the Matsunagas knew it was a fad. They tried to replicate it, they lamented that no-one was able to get over like the Crush Girls and eventually they changed tact, but it was far more intangible than the product, which I think is a fair point that Jerry raised.

[Dylan Waco]

Who isn't acknowledging that his time in the limelight was temporary? Where is that occurring in this thread?

 

Also "meant to be a draw?" I think you mean "was a draw, to the point of arguably being the biggest draw in the States and the world at one point."

 

I'm not terribly interested in arguing over the term fad, I would just note that it is almost always used as a dismissive term in the United States. "It was just a fad" is the standard use of the term, not "that was a really impressive fad, even if it burned out quick." Of course in wrestling four years isn't quick.

[ohtani's jacket]

Who isn't acknowledging that his time in the limelight was temporary? Where is that occurring in this thread?

What I was angling at was the difference between a fleeting draw and a permanent draw no matter how successful said draw is.

 

Also "meant to be a draw?" I think you mean "was a draw, to the point of arguably being the biggest draw in the States and the world at one point."

If New Orleans and the South is the "world" then I guess that's a fair statement, but I kind of wonder if the world was paying attention to JYD at said time.

 

I'm not terribly interested in arguing over the term fad, I would just note that it is almost always used as a dismissive term in the United States. "It was just a fad" is the standard use of the term, not "that was a really impressive fad, even if it burned out quick." Of course in wrestling four years isn't quick.

Well, I guess that clears that up. I can understand the negative connotation, but I tend to think that my childhood and teen years were made up of a series of fads and tend to look back on them positively.

[Dylan Waco]

Name a list of people who drew on or at the level of JYD during his peak, a peak which was almost entirely pre-national expansion.

 

Now name the country JYD lived in.

 

Now name the planet he performed on.

 

In the era, for his time, JYD was one of the biggest draws in the world.

[ohtani's jacket]

Tell me how many people lived in the world during JYD's peak.

 

Tell me how many countries there were.

 

Tell me how many wrestling territories there were within those countries.

 

Tell me how many fans within those territories gave a crap about JYD relative to their local heroes.

 

JYD was one of the biggest draws in the country pre-national expansion is probably praise enough.