Wrestlemania 29 Thoughts

[Loss]

Watching the opening segment from last night, and I can't help but think that Cena has already turned. It's just that no one has noticed. He was clearly trolling that crowd, and it was great.

[Dylan Waco]

I usually hate that super smarky stuff during promos but Cena's "heel turn" joke is one of the funniest things a WWE main eventer has said or done in years.

[goc]

Agreed. Didn't know where he was going with the dance but the heel turn

bit cracked me up.

[Loss]

Sometimes I think they should turn Cena. I was even telling Dylan last night they should. Then I see that, and realize that he couldn't possibly be a better heel for their fanbase than he is now. The shameless merchandise shilling, the obnoxiousness showing off of the belt, the mocking of the people who boo him ... it's exactly what it should be. We are seeing a John Cena heel run.

[Bigelow34]

Sometimes I think they should turn Cena. I was even telling Dylan last night they should. Then I see that, and realize that he couldn't possibly be a better heel for their fanbase than he is now. The shameless merchandise shilling, the obnoxiousness showing off of the belt, the mocking of the people who boo him ... it's exactly what it should be. We are seeing a John Cena heel run.

I was just saying this exact thing last night. No way can they book him as a bigger heel than he is now. He gets huge heel heat, everyone except kids hate him, he cashes in on the kids with merch sales, tons of fans claim they are going to quit watching but they keep tuning in to see him lose, getting pissed when he keeps on winning and dominating...and he goes right along trolling, mocking the haters and then delivering the biggest FU in that ESPN interview.

 

Agreed 100%.

[Matt D]

No opinion here. Just tossing this out: Do people buy tickets and/or tune in to watch him get beat though? Do they buy tickets to boo him? Do they buy tickets to cheer the guys he's wrestling?

 

Especially outside the Night after Mania.

[Bigelow34]

No opinion here. Just tossing this out: Do people buy tickets and/or tune in to watch him get beat though? Do they buy tickets to boo him? Do they buy tickets to cheer the guys he's wrestling?

 

Especially outside the Night after Mania.

Good question.

 

But, my argument (and maybe Loss's too) is that even if he turns "heel" officially, will that change? Or is it the nature of today's business? Within the scope of the WWE model, I don't think him turning can garner anymore heat overall than he gets now.

 

Curious who the last true heel in WWE was...the guy people "pay to see lose".

[pantherwagner]

I hadn't watched any WWE (save two or three matches and a few minutes here and there of random channel flipping) since 2007 until a few weeks ago and to me it was always clear that Cena is a heel, I think it's just that the concept of what a heel is has now changed. This situation now works perfectly for WWE as they can still market him to children, women and keep sending him to do media as he's perfect for that.

 

As I said I hadn't watched almost anything since 2007, and before that, I hadn't watched WWE for maybe four years. So I am very out of touch. I always liked Chris Jericho, I considered him a solid guy though I never put him on the upper echelon of US workers. So I was surprised to see him working like it was WAR in 1994 (that's not a compliment). He also needs to stop doing that takedown with the punches because they look like schoolyard fight punches.

 

I hadn't hated HHH for years. He was never ruining anything I like so out of sight out of mind. But seeing him getting destroyed to absolutely no reaction was as surprising as it was funny. I don't know if he's ever going to be as beloved as Undertaker or Shawn or Flair and that's always going to haunt him.

 

Ryback looks too comical for me to take him seriously, his entrance is way too choreographed and who can take a guy seriously as a bad ass when you grunt and growl and yell "feed me more"? At least you could see Goldberg's intensity was real. Also he looks like a walking liability, sure, WWE won't pop him for steroids ever, but he puts the whole operation in question in a very public way and he's a Signature pharmacy case waiting to happen. And whoever told him to do the marching band thing when doing his finisher is a clueless idiot really.

 

The Shield is a really cool act, I hope they don't fuck it up. Ambrose and Reigns may come out of it as legit superstars, Rollins I don't know, he's got that old CM Punk look that doesn't help.

 

I had known the name "Dolph Ziggler" for years but I couldn't have picked the guy out of a lineup. I was expecting a lot as I always hear this talk (mostly WON though) about how this guy is so great and is like a new Curt Hennig but he only seems to have the worst attributes of Hennig.

 

I liked Undertaker vs CM Punk a lot, didn't care about the rest, though the Bryan/Kane tag match was fun.

[Matt D]

No opinion here. Just tossing this out: Do people buy tickets and/or tune in to watch him get beat though? Do they buy tickets to boo him? Do they buy tickets to cheer the guys he's wrestling?

 

Especially outside the Night after Mania.

Good question.

 

But, my argument (and maybe Loss's too) is that even if he turns "heel" officially, will that change? Or is it the nature of today's business? Within the scope of the WWE model, I don't think him turning can garner anymore heat overall than he gets now.

 

Curious who the last true heel in WWE was...the guy people "pay to see lose".

 

If he "officially" turned heel, the guys he wrestled would be different.

[Loss]

It is a good question. I do think to some degree that fans buy tickets to boo Cena, based on how much heat his matches tend to have most of the time.

 

Cena has spent a lot of time on top being programmed against other babyfaces. Even the Punk feud, when it hit Chicago, was Cena taking on the anti-establishment hometown hero. He's also had matches with babyfaces like Lashley, Michaels and RVD, and most recently headlined two Wrestlemanias against one of the biggest babyfaces in wrestling history.

 

Right now, they can make him whatever they want him to be, whenever they want him to be whatever that is. It's more a happy accident than it is something WWE mapped out for the most part, but I do think at times that they've really tried to milk that for all that it's worth.

[NintendoLogic]

It seems to me that Cena being constantly programmed against babyfaces is a function of WWE's inability to build strong heels.

[Bigelow34]

It seems to me that Cena being constantly programmed against babyfaces is a function of WWE's inability to build strong heels.

Agreed. I think they could have stretched Henry out to Extreme Rules, but I get they wanted to make a big splash with Rock leaving.

[anarchistxx]

I honestly think John Cena is the best face and the best heel in the promotion, which is pretty incredible.

 

Reading the Raw results I can't believe they just gave away Sheamus/Orton on free TV in a throwaway match - that is one of their few fresh matchups isn't it? None of the upcoming feuds seem too exciting, Dolph/ADR especially seems typical of a midcard feud that shouldn't be anywhere near a world title, if they go that route.

 

You half expect them to run two triple threats at the next event, with Swagger/ADR/Ziggler and Cena/Henry/Ryback. Having said that I imagine Swagger might be on his way out, especially after the whole arrest thing. It would be no surprise if he was jobbing to all and sundry on Superstars within a few months.

[tigerpride]

Sheamus and Orton have fought tons of times, even in a cell.

[sek69]

Anyone else notice when Dolph won, Big E was doing his impression of that kid who marked out for Ron Simmons?

[Matt D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=GcMJi1JUczE

 

 

Cena's post Raw promo was really good.

[Guest Andrews]

Anyone else notice when Dolph won, Big E was doing his impression of that kid who marked out for Ron Simmons?

lol, I feel this now.

[KrisZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=GcMJi1JUczE

 

 

Cena's post Raw promo was really good.

That was fantastic and his interpretation of the We Are Awesome chant never dawned on me until then and it makes sense.

 

Kudos Cena

[jdw]

In sum, I thought this was way better than the past two Wrestlemanias (and I was at the Miami one) and was a really fun live experience. Even though, the main event sucked, my brother and I still had fun ragging on it. Oh yeah, as a huge 80s metal fan, seeing Living Color live was wicked bitchin'

 

I don't feel like this was at all deserving of all the jeers it has been getting. I thought it was a good show with a fun undercard, an incredible match with Punk/Taker, a well-structured albeit underwhelming Brock/Trips and a shitty main event hey they can't all be winners.

I'm not sure how that fits with what you said about the matches. The undercard:

 

I really dug the Shield/Babyfaces matches. [...]

 

Mark Henry vs Ryback was so disappointing.

 

The crowd (very stereotypically smarky) was red hot for Daniel Bryan. [...] I thought the match was a fun collection of spots, but that was it. The Shield match outstriped this one for me, but that isnt really a slight against this match, which was a fun popcorn affair.

 

Jericho vs Fandango was a bit better than I think you guys are giving it credit for. [...] I had this right in there with the Shield match and was a really nice undercard match.

 

Del Rio vs Swagger was overall pretty forgetful.

1 - disappointing

1 - forgetful

1 - fun popcorn match (which is kind of faint praise)

1 - really dug

1 - not as shitty as we think

 

I don't know... that's kind of in line with what most people have said:

 

- Shield and Tag Title match were watchable / good / entertaining

- Del Rio-Swagger and Ryback-Henry were mediocre

- Jericho-Fandango was a spotfest by Jericho, which worked/didn't work largely based on whether people gave a shit about Fandango

 

So you're not terribly off from people there. That also doesn't exactly make for a Great~! undercard. It's not like someone snuck into the undercard with a MOTYC or even a MOTNC.

 

Then the mains?

 

CM Punk vs Undertaker was a match totally elevated by the crowd. Holy fuck, besides the Raw before Money In The Bank 2011, I have never heard a crowd so fuckin hot.

You liked that... but it seems like everyone liked that as the best match on the night. Even people who are critical of the match cop to it being a WWE Spectacle that generally delivered.

 

But the others?

 

HHH vs Brock - This match has zero heat. Dont let anyone fool you. You could hear a pin drop in that arena until the finish. [...] This match went way too long and had some of the normal HHH deadspots, but it was not a fucking awful match. It was a decent match that didnt deliver. [...] This match did not deliver, but it was not awful

 

Rock vs Cena II fuckin sucked.

You thought one sucked (more than most here), while the other didn't deliver and didn't have any heat.

 

One good main event, two good undercard matches, and one undercard match that you liked more than most.

 

One awful main event and one failed main event, along with two disappointing undercard matches.

 

That's a great card?

 

Yow...

 

John

[jdw]

BTW - did anyone get a screencap of the Blue Blazer sign at Mania?

 

John

[anarchistxx]

Sheamus and Orton have fought tons of times, even in a cell.

Ah right, I didn't really pay attention to anything from 2006-2011 so assumed they had been mainly kept apart. Still, Sheamus has been built up considerably in the last couple of years so I'd have thought they would at least save an Orton match for PPV. They could have even done the match last night on PPV, with the winner to face Big Show at the next event - mini feuds like that are a ton better than having repeated matches at every event. Even with escalating stipulations it still comes across as old hat when you have the same title match two or three PPVs straight.

[Brian Fowler]

In the upper deck, behind the entrance stage, it was cold as fuck, fwiw. In truth, in my section, I think Undertaker's giant fucking pyro got the loudest cheers, because it warmed us up.

 

Whoever said someone on twitter said that Triple H/Lesnar got good reactions in the building was lied to. It was the only match on the show you could have a regular conversation with people around you during. Going on after Taker is just flat out death.

 

Rock/Cena had the crowd majorly into at first, but after a few minutes of "3 moves and lay around" the crowd was dead until the finish.

 

Overall, I had a fucking great time there, but I don't know how much I'd have liked it on tv.

[Matt D]

Welcome to the last bastion, Brian. I feel bad you didn't get to stick around for Raw.

[Brian Fowler]

Welcome to the last bastion, Brian. I feel bad you didn't get to stick around for Raw.

 

Yeah. I think if I ever go again, I need to get RAW tickets to.

 

Not sure we're quite crazy enough to drive all the way to N'Awlins next year though.

[S.L.L.]

I understand the criticism but I think there's a big difference between Undertaker doing one or two super hero no selling spots down the stretch of a WM main event (where he's basically a super hero), in his once a year epic, at the right time in the match, vs Davey Richards doing it for every spot in every match in every spot on every card.

I think it was more the way it looked than that it was a Taker superhero spot. Like, him powering up from the Anaconda Vice and glaring at Punk...that looked like a Taker superhero spot. That was actually pretty neat. GTS -> bounce off the ropes -> Tombstone just looked silly.

 

However....

 

Also, and I said this earlier. To me, it didn't look like Taker ate the G2S. it looked like Punk couldn't hit it right and Taker either blocked it or took it on the chest/stomach. Then bounced off the ropes. It was visually distinct and significant and that's why it didn't hurt the match for me. I've seen the spot 3-4 times now and I still take that away from it.

....while that's not what it looked like to me, I can see how it would look like that to someone else. So if you saw that, cool. I won't argue against that.

 

I don't think you can possibly believe this. What was similar about Lesnar's Gary Albright impression and CM Punk's, well, CM Punk impression? The matches didn't seem to be laid out in a similar way. On the surface there was a glut of finishers, but as a whole those matches didn't really build or finish the same way.

I don't buy that the show fell flat because all three big matches were the same.

 

Taker-Punk pretty clearly did not fall flat, in part because they made the effort to create distinctive moments -- Punk being a wiseass about Taker's mystique, the table spot, the urn nearfall -- instead of just kicking out of four tombstone and five GTS's. If you want to say they sold poorly at times or got too cute with the finisher reversals, I won't argue. But that match did not strike me as mindless finisher-fu.

 

HHH-Lesnar featured a fine on-paper layout. It was your basic physically overmatched guy fights through a terrible beating to save his career. Unfortunately, it was predicated on HHH delivering a performance of which he's incapable. He's compelling neither as a guy standing toe-to-toe with Lesnar nor as a gutsy babyface with an unbreakable connection to the crowd. The failing of that match was not a ridiculous excess of finishers (though I'd have edited out one of the kimura counters) but one guy's delusions of greatness.

 

Rock-Cena was the match that best fits SLL's criticism. They wrestled a formless opening, seemed to agree they were devoid of ideas and then went to the endless finishers, reversals, thefts of the other guy's finisher, etc. The only moment I liked down the stretch was Cena being a d-bag about the people's elbow. Otherwise, it was clearly WWE epic run amok.

 

So yeah, I agree that the show fell flat when it was supposed to climax. I think it was probably a mistake to run those three matches in a row without some short, energetic stuff interspersed. But I didn't see them as three faces of the same problem.

So I made the comparison of Mania to the first Russo/Bischoff Nitro. First Russo/Bischoff Nitro is a show that doesn't work for a lot of reasons, but the one that Phil harped on the most in his Workrate Report and that usually gets brought up when talking about it now was that every segment ran the same formula. Somebody comes out for a match or an interview, somebody else comes out to interrupt with a big surprise, repeat until show ends. Same formula, every segment, all night, and in doing so, they make the formula meaningless.

 

That said, while they kept running the same formula, it wasn't run in a completely identical manner. Some big surprises interrupted matches. Some big surprises interrupted bad worked shoot promos. Some involved guys already in the company making the interruptions. Some involved guys making their debuts. Some involved guys attacking wrestlers. Some involved guys attacking announcers. There were obvious differences in how they ran the "somebody comes out for a match or an interview, somebody else comes out to interrupt with a big surprise" formula in each segment...but they still ran the "somebody comes out for a match or an interview, somebody else comes out to interrupt with a big surprise" formula in each segment, which killed any real interest you might have had in it.

 

I recognize obvious differences between how all the Mania matches from Jericho/Fandago through the main event ran the "meaningless opening and then finishers" formula. Some of the matches had guys doing throws for the meaningless opening. Some had guys doing strikes for the meaningless opening. Some had Punk rolling the urn around on his arms like some morbid version of Curly Neal for the meaningless opening. Some had finishers done onto tables. Some had finishers done onto steel steps. Some had guys doing their opponents' finishers, and some were content to stick with their own.

 

So, yes, those matches all ran the "meaningless opening and then finishers" formula differently from one another...but they still all ran the "meaningless opening and then finishers" formula, which killed any real interest I might have had in it.

 

I'm willing to agree that Punk/Taker was the best of those matches on the grounds that it made the most of the formula. I'm willing to agree HHH/Lesnar was the least of those matches because it had the most problems on top of running the same match formula they were running all night. But convincing me that these matches were structured in any kind of meaningfully different manner from each other is gonna be a tough sell.