Dylan Waco Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Greensboro was their big time town and their big arena. Starrcade was a Crocket promotion and that was where the show was going to be. Expanding on Bock a bit and a point John made about the fact that Sam probably wouldn't have backed him that is likely true BUT: Bock was a St. Louis guy. Bock was a second generation guy who's dad was an extremely well respected wrestler with the St. Louis guys. Both of those things would have helped him immensely in the eyes of Sam in the right situation. The problem is (and I think John illustrates this well) there really was no "right situation." Complicating things even more is the fact that Race was already a guy with points in Central States at that point and while that was a distinct world from St. Louis there was some overlap with political players in both places. In other words even if Sam were pissed at Race for some reason, politically it would have been extremely tough to dump Harley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Did JCP or any NWA organisation make overtures to Hogan?? Hogan actually wrestled Race in 83. 10/13/83 Kansas City NWA champ Harley Race no contest Hulk Hogan Super Destroyer beat Buzz Tyler Bulldog Bob Brown and Booker T beat Killer Karl Krupp and Jerry Brown Ron Ritchie drew Roger Kirby Mike Pagel beat Tonga John Angelo Mosca Jr beat Steve Sybert Considering they wanted to make Starrcade as big as possible, was an overture to Hogan around this time of big money plus the belt for a period completely out of the question? Didn't EVERYONE want a piece of Hulk? Was it written in stone that he was going to Vince after AWA? [edit: in the event they actually get Hogan, I guess that would mean Flair would be the heel - they keep the strap on him and Hogan goes over at Starrcade. A million NWA hardcores just turned to dust instantly at that suggestion. Whereever he's sitting Bill Apter just felt a shudder down his spine] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 The old PWI almanacs had a line that Hogan was scheduled to appear at Starrcade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Wow. Just doing some digging and according to this thread: www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index.php?threadid=69957 It was meant to be Hogan and Wahoo vs. Orton and Slater. Was even in the program booklet. I'm a little stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 The Hogan stuff is true and there was talk that he was going to go back to CWF in early 1984 but Vince stepped in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Wow. Just doing some digging and according to this thread: www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index.php?threadid=69957 It was meant to be Hogan and Wahoo vs. Orton and Slater. Was even in the program booklet. I'm a little stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Wow. Just doing some digging and according to this thread: www.infinitecore.ca/superstar/index.php?threadid=69957 It was meant to be Hogan and Wahoo vs. Orton and Slater. Was even in the program booklet. I'm a little stunned. Special referee Bulldog Brown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Were the NWA committee so old-school that it wouldn't have occurred to them to think about putting the belt on him or at least get him into a main event? I mean I know Flair was Crockett's guy, but surely Hogan = cash and that was plain to see by all, no? Looks like he more or less killed Race in that match too: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Were the NWA committee so old-school that it wouldn't have occurred to them to think about putting the belt on him or at least get him into a main event? I mean I know Flair was Crockett's guy, but surely Hogan = cash and that was plain to see by all, no? The build to the show wasn't about making Hogan the huge star. He would have had to have been in Crockett way in advance to change that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Who was Hogan actually working for when he had that match with Race? Seems like a strange thing to do in Race's last major defense before Flair, even allowing for the hyperbole of the article. EDIT: Digging around and it looks like the match in the article happened in St. Louis on 10/08/83 and there was a second match in Kansas a few days later 10/13/83 (ended in no contest). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hogan was working shots for Race & Geigel then with Buck Robley as booker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Greensboro was their big time town and their big arena. Starrcade was a Crocket promotion and that was where the show was going to be. Expanding on Bock a bit and a point John made about the fact that Sam probably wouldn't have backed him that is likely true BUT: Bock was a St. Louis guy. Bock was a second generation guy who's dad was an extremely well respected wrestler with the St. Louis guys. Both of those things would have helped him immensely in the eyes of Sam in the right situation. The problem is (and I think John illustrates this well) there really was no "right situation." Complicating things even more is the fact that Race was already a guy with points in Central States at that point and while that was a distinct world from St. Louis there was some overlap with political players in both places. In other words even if Sam were pissed at Race for some reason, politically it would have been extremely tough to dump Harley Claw has a post here: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...ic;f=1;t=122555 From Larry Matysik's ebook on St. Louis Wrestling, 10/17/75 St. Louis, MO @ Kiel Auditorium WWWWF Champion Bruno Sammartino beat Stan Stasiak Missouri Champion Harley Race beat Jerry Oates Nick Bockwinkel & Dick Murdoch ddq Dick the Bruiser & Pat O�Connor Rocky Johnson beat Chuck O�Connor Big Bill Miller beat Tank Patton Ali Vaziri & Ronnie Etchison beat Rene Goulet & Soldier LeBeouf 2/3 1 Goulet beat Etchison 2 Etchison beat Le Beouf 3 Vaziri beat Goulet att: 4740 10/18/75 St. Louis TV Wrestling at the Chase Red Bastien beat Sika Nick Bockwinkel & Bobby Heenan beat Jerry Oates & Mike Hubert (later billed as Spike Huber) 2/3 1 Bockwinkel beat Oates 2 Oates beat Heenan 3 Bockwinkel beat Hubert. Stan Stasiak beat Tony Atlas (yes, that Tony Atlas) Larry's thoughts: This was the start of what was planned as a major push for Nick Bockwinkel. Although it bucked the KC and O'Connor concern about making Verne Gagne's talent too strong in St. Louis (Gagne was booking Bockwinkel), Sam Muchnick was firm that Bockwinkel could do major business - especially with Bobby Heenan as his manager. Sam had known Nick's father Warren Bockwinkel very well, as Warren was a highly-respected grappler from St. Louis, where Nick was born. Nick himself had surpassed his dad in the ring; Nick Bockwinkel was an exceptional talent and talker. Some would describe him as a 'wrestling heel', which Sam liked. The addition of Heenan was a bonus. The plan was moving nicely into December, when Gagne decided to put the AWA championship in Nick's hands. That, of course, was a stumbling block for St. Louis because it limited anything Bockwinkel could do with Terry Funk, by then the NWA champion. Obviously, while Sam wanted to use Gagne's prime talent, Muchnick was not going to put the AWA crown in main events equal to the NWA prize. Thus, Jan. 2 became Bockwinkel's final outing in St. Louis although he retained excellent relations with Sam and everyone from St. Louis. Ironically, a few years later when Fritz Von Erich (Jack Adkisson) was president of the NWA, Fritz felt out Bockwinkel about jumping to the NWA and becoming NWA champion. Bockwinkel, however, was happy in the AWA with a less-demanding schedule than the NWA ruler and the ability to still work some outside dates. There is a slight timeline problem: Fritz wasn't NWA President "a few years later". He was the NWA President at the time Bock was going to be pushed in St Louis, and as the decision was made to put the title on Terry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Wres...ance#Presidents Graham probably was president when the decision was made to go to Race, depending on when the decision was made and when Fritz's term ends and Graham's began. Then Graham, Giegel and Crockett were president during Harley's run. I fully expect this story to be revised the next time we see it told. It will be Eddie Graham who asked him, no later than a year into Harley's run. Because we know that Geigel and Crockett wouldn't ask. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 It was just weird. I've read Dave's Tributes 2 book a bunch of times and never noticed the bit about Bock re: becoming NWA champ until the other day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Gary Hart claimed in his book that Hogan was never booked on the show and that it was some weird Apter mag thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Why would Gary lie like that? It was covered in the WON at the time, with the talk about them working a 1 fall match because Hogan wouldn't even split falls with Race before the 3rd fall bullshit finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Why would Gary lie like that? It was covered in the WON at the time, with the talk about them working a 1 fall match because Hogan wouldn't even split falls with Race before the 3rd fall bullshit finish. Something to add to the Hogan thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Why would Gary lie like that? It was covered in the WON at the time, with the talk about them working a 1 fall match because Hogan wouldn't even split falls with Race before the 3rd fall bullshit finish.Starrcade, not Race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 They must have known he was off to WWF by November right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Flair mentioned the Hogan thing in the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruiserBrody Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 The Hogan stuff is true and there was talk that he was going to go back to CWF in early 1984 but Vince stepped in. IIRC Wrestling Classics or Meltz debunked the Hogan at Starcade story and pointed out Hogan was in Japan at that point or something like that for evidence. Edit: Hogan and Inoki teamed for the MSG tourney in Japan and I would have to assume NJPW had that date set for a long time and Hogan was one of NJ's big gaijin's. All in all, I guess the evidence appears to favor false advertising or a miscommunication. As far as Hogan going to Florida - would he have had a chance to make anywhere what the AWA was paying him, or are we to believe he was fed up enough with Verne to leave regardless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 When I was looking last night, he was still working AWA dates when he had those matches with Race right through October and into November. khawk do you have any insight on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 When I was looking last night, he was still working AWA dates when he had those matches with Race right through October and into November. khawk do you have any insight on this one?Gagne, Geigel, and Race were both part owners of St Louis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Starrcade happened on November 24, 1983. Hogan's last AWA date before going to Japan was just 10 days before this: 11/14/83 – Phoenix, AZ - Hulk Hogan defeated Jerry "Crusher" Blackwell (Hogan's final AWA match) Works Japan for the rest of November starting 11/18/83 to first bit of December. First date for WWF: 12/27/83 – St. Louis, MO - Chase Park Hotel (Wrestling at the Chase taping - attendance 1,100; sell out): Hulk Hogan pinned Bill Dixon with the legdrop (Hogans return after nearly a 3 year hiatus) -------- My question was this: how far ahead was that planned? When exactly did he agree to go to WWF? And how far in advance did Verne (or anyone) know that he was definitely leaving AWA for WWF (rather than an NWA organisation)? If they just didn't know, it's perfectly possible that 2-3 weeks before Starrcade they had a plan of putting him in that tag match and printed a program / ran an ad in a mag with it, either not knowing he was off to Japan or not knowing he was off to WWF after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 If they just didn't know, it's perfectly possible that 2-3 weeks before Starrcade they had a plan of putting him in that tag match and printed a program / ran an ad in a mag with it, either not knowing he was off to Japan or not knowing he was off to WWF after that. Where is this printed program you speak of? I've only seen the PWI/Apter spread with that tag match listed, never a printed program from the night of the event, aside from maybe the cover. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'd just like to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Why would Gary lie like that? It was covered in the WON at the time, with the talk about them working a 1 fall match because Hogan wouldn't even split falls with Race before the 3rd fall bullshit finish.Starrcade, not Race. Okay: Hart said Hogan wasn't booked at Starcade. That doesn't look like an Apter mag, as I thought the poster said it was from the Program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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