Bix Posted June 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Even if Joe had the Umaga gimmick (and my understanding is it had nothing to do with anything), that doesn't magically make everything that happened to Eddie Fatu happen to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingliam Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 This thread has made me look up the Samoa Joe dropkick. Man, what was the guy thinking? That was never a good choice to be making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Even if Joe had the Umaga gimmick (and my understanding is it had nothing to do with anything), that doesn't magically make everything that happened to Eddie Fatu happen to him. No of course not, but Joe is a guy who was going to try to prove himself to whatever fed he was in. At the time Fatu was a guy who thought he needed to eat a ton of reckless chairshots to prove his value to company. 2005/6 period may have also been the point where not just Fatu, but bot Chavo and Harry Smith were at most roided (relatives of folks who died from steroid related heart problems who felt need to roid to prove their commitment to fed) . Joe was going to do what it takes to prove that he would go all the way for whatever fed hired him. What that would involve in the WWE, we have no way of knowing. But I'm not going to pretend like it would be a healthy, life promoting activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 Even if he had gone to WWE and failed, he then could have signed with TNA for even more money and be pushed even harder as a "former WWE star". So everyone who bombed out of the WWE quickly ended up in TNA making big bucks? We're not talking about someone like the Hardyz or Christian who had been pushed on WWE tv for ages that TNA marks out for. What if Joe went to development, farted around there for 2 years making less than he did in TNA, got a modest push for a year but Vince & Creative decided he was nothing special and ran him. He's suddenly end up in TNA making more than he did after 3 years of a push in TNA... and also enough to make up for three years of making less in the WWE than he would have in TNA? Could Joe have done better by waiting in ROH until the WWE finally called? Perhaps. Could he have done worse? Sure, he would have ended up like Nigel. He got a good deal in TNA. Several of them. Can't blame him for it. Especially since at the time, it wasn't like anyone could point to people like Bix did in the initial post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 The Swiss cheese meter on that logic doesn't pass grade to a point. If TNA were interested in signing Joe and pushing him based on his indy rep (which they obviously were, since they did), why would they not be interested in signing him after a WWE run, even if that run was a complete bust? I can't think of any examples where this occurred. Either way he winds up in TNA. What shape his career there takes, who can say. Considering they've done nothing with him forever, but they keep offering him new deals, it doesn't seem outlandish to say that if he goes to TNA later that he sticks there. Even if the scenario that "Joe goes to WWE and bombs" occurs, he is still a guy that had a huge rep on the indies at one point that everyone knew TNA wanted. Considering they also loved to make backhanded references to their own competition, they would be handed a tailor made "held down by the man but ready to show you the real deal" gimmick. Considering that they pushed Joe as The Man before he got fed to Angle and basically emasculated forever more, seems more plausible than them simply saying "Joe? Yeah we were hot on him 18 months ago but now no thanks". TNA going down that path would require them to go against the grain of their own thought process on too many fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 I kind of agree with the premise that Samoa Joe's size and look is more detrimental to him than Bryan Danielson's or CM Punk's. In the indies he's the big guy to everyone else. In WWE? He's not big enough to be seen as a threat based on his size and he's definitely not small enough to be an undersized underdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 We should be looking how Taz did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 The Swiss cheese meter on that logic doesn't pass grade to a point. If TNA were interested in signing Joe and pushing him based on his indy rep (which they obviously were, since they did), why would they not be interested in signing him after a WWE run, even if that run was a complete bust? I can't think of any examples where this occurred. You can't think of any examples where that happened? Wildcat Chris Harris was signed to WWE in 2008, was a guy like Joe who works a Choshu heavyweight sprint moveset style... the WWE told him he couldn't work that style and gave him a super ugly outfit and no promotion, He had maybe three matches with huge periods of time between appearances and he failed and was released. Failure on the WWE stage was such a complete bust that TNA had no interest in bringing him back for another 3 years. Even after 3 years, TNA still felt that they couldn't do much to wash the stench of the WWE bust off him, and released him quickly. Considering they also loved to make backhanded references to their own competition, they would be handed a tailor made "held down by the man but ready to show you the real deal" gimmick This was at a time where Vince Russo was in charge of creative. The only thing Vince Russo understands how to write is whiny promos where wrestlers complain about misuse. Even Russo understood that WWE run that was that level of "complete bust" couldn't be dealt with that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Taz was in his mid thirties and had a bad neck when WWF picked him up. I don't think his ring work or that he looked like a dweeb standing next to Steve Austin helped him either. And Joe blows Taz out of water in terms of like everything except interviews. I could totally see Samoa Joe vs Shawn Michaels in 2006. Edit: why are people talking about Chris Harris when A. he sucked, and B. showed up on the main roster in the worst shape of his life? Guy deserved what he got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Edit: why are people talking about Chris Harris when A. he sucked, and B. showed up on the main roster in the worst shape of his life? Guy deserved what he got. A)He was set up to suck. B. Samoa Joe is fat. Fatter than Chris Harris. Would look even worse if wearing the type of black Moolah singlet that was put on Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Staples Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Wildcat Chris Harris was signed to WWE in 2008, was a guy like Joe who works a Choshu heavyweight sprint moveset style... the WWE told him he couldn't work that style and gave him a super ugly outfit and no promotion, He had maybe three matches with huge periods of time between appearances and he failed and was released. Failure on the WWE stage was such a complete bust that TNA had no interest in bringing him back for another 3 years. Even after 3 years, TNA still felt that they couldn't do much to wash the stench of the WWE bust off him, and released him quickly. He was around for a (literal) month and had two matches before being released. As for TNA, he was originally let go from there because they had nothing for him. They gave him some bizarre whining gimmick and didn't do anything with him for four months before granting him his release. Why would they bring him back after that? And when he did come back, he was terribly out of shape in his match. A )He was set up to suck. B ) Samoa Joe is fat. Fatter than Chris Harris. Would look even worse if wearing the type of black Moolah singlet that was put on Harris. A ) He was barely around long enough to be set up for anything before asking for his release. B ) Samoa Joe was in shape though and wrestling samoans tend to be large (like Umaga and Rikishi). Harris looked visibly winded after short matches against jobbers. Also, I don't think Joe could look worse in anything after wearing those pajama war pants or whatever they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 JDW said: So everyone who bombed out of the WWE quickly ended up in TNA making big bucks? We're not talking about someone like the Hardyz or Christian who had been pushed on WWE tv for ages that TNA marks out for. What if Joe went to development, farted around there for 2 years making less than he did in TNA, got a modest push for a year but Vince & Creative decided he was nothing special and ran him. He's suddenly end up in TNA making more than he did after 3 years of a push in TNA... and also enough to make up for three years of making less in the WWE than he would have in TNA? DFA replied: The Swiss cheese meter on that logic doesn't pass grade to a point. If TNA were interested in signing Joe and pushing him based on his indy rep (which they obviously were, since they did), why would they not be interested in signing him after a WWE run, even if that run was a complete bust? I can't think of any examples where this occurred. Chris Harris is the obvious example of a guy who went bust in the WWE. As a result of that bust, TNA despite knowing what he was capable of wasn't interested in bringing him back. again jdw: I'm guessing Joe has made reasonable good money for the past 8 years since he signed his TNA contract. We can't be sure he would have made that money in the WWE for he past 8 years, or even in a WWE + Post WWE career over those 8 years. I can't knock someone in this shitty business getting paid for 8 years. Bird in the hand. You can make up alternative Chris Harris histories if you like. But he was a guy who told TNA he was interested in leaving and was given a whiner gimmick as his TNA contract ran out (I've never said anything positive about TNA booking but that is standard jobbing a leaving guy out booking) was signed to WWF where he was kept under contract for six months, only used three times, told he couldn't use his moveset (outside of perfectplex) , given ugly ring gear, no promotional packages, sent out cold for one match versus a manager (where memory of the sheet coverage was they hadn't come up with a ring name until time of show), not used again for three weeks, given an odd backstage skit (as I remember the sheet explanation at the time, there was a booking plan for where skit would lead later in show but then they decided to drop that booking but somehow forgot to drop skit), given another match a week later and then released. And then didn't get within spitting distance of a steady wrestling paycheck for four years. If you want to blame Chris Harris for his own failure, fine. Still he gave up a job to take a risky shot at the bigtime. That risk failed to payoff and bit him hard. That's the risk you take when giving up a semi secure steady job for a risky business venture, you may win or you may lose. At the end of Joe's ROH run, he made it very clear in interviews that if he didn't get a semi secure (nothing in wresting is actually secure) steady job/paycheck (as either part of wrestling school, regular Japan tour gig, or steady check from TNA or WWF) he was going to get out of the biz. I'm guessing Joe has made reasonable good money for the past 8 years since he signed his TNA contract. We can't be sure he would have made that money in the WWE for he past 8 years, or even in a WWE + Post WWE career over those 8 years. I can't knock someone in this shitty business getting paid for 8 years. Bird in the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 The point is not really that he would have done well in WWE, anyway. This is a guy who was consensus top 5 to top 10 in the world for several years, and that was largely erased even before he took that bump on the stairs. You can't say the same thing about the workrate indy guys who didn't do well in WWE. Outside of winning the fan vote for NXT Season 2, Low-Ki completely bombed (for a number of reasons) and nobody really looks at him as a lesser worker than he was when he was hired. Colt Cabana is the same wrestler he was when he was signed, is in some ways ways a bigger star than he was doing jobs on WWE TV. Hell, look at Claudio/Cesaro: If he doesn't get a renewed push with Dutch as his manager (something hinted at on Raw this past Monday) and is instead jobbed out for months and then released, he'll be looked at as a considerably better worker than he was when he was signed. When he was signed, he was a great worker and one of the best in the indies. Now he's considered even better, a guy closer to Danielson's level who, by all rights, should be a WWE main eventer based on the quality and style of his in-ring work. EDIT: Oh, and as for the Chris Harris stuff: I know that post-Braden Walker the conventional wisdom online is that James Storm was really just carrying him for years. Was it a meme at all beforehand? I know that Storm was considered the worker of the team by other wrestlers back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Comparing Joe to Chris Harris is an insult to Joe. Harris was a mess by the time TNA let him go/WWE signed him. He wasn't so much set up to fail by WWE, he set himself up to fail. Even unmotivated Joe at his fattest is a hundred times better than Harris in almost every aspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 The point is not really that he would have done well in WWE, anyway. This is a guy who was consensus top 5 to top 10 in the world for several years, and that was largely erased even before he took that bump on the stairs. You can't say the same thing about the workrate indy guys who didn't do well in WWE. Outside of winning the fan vote for NXT Season 2, Low-Ki completely bombed (for a number of reasons) and nobody really looks at him as a lesser worker than he was when he was hired. Colt Cabana is the same wrestler he was when he was signed, is in some ways ways a bigger star than he was doing jobs on WWE TV. Hell, look at Claudio/Cesaro: If he doesn't get a renewed push with Dutch as his manager (something hinted at on Raw this past Monday) and is instead jobbed out for months and then released, he'll be looked at as a considerably better worker than he was when he was signed. When he was signed, he was a great worker and one of the best in the indies. Now he's considered even better, a guy closer to Danielson's level who, by all rights, should be a WWE main eventer based on the quality and style of his in-ring work. EDIT: Oh, and as for the Chris Harris stuff: I know that post-Braden Walker the conventional wisdom online is that James Storm was really just carrying him for years. Was it a meme at all beforehand? I know that Storm was considered the worker of the team by other wrestlers back then. Low Ki got himself over on NXT by being himself. And being himself got him more or less buried after that, and led to him asking out. That's Low Ki. He's kept his heat because that's what he does. Same with Cabana. He's a worker too. He's still milking his wasted WWE time, in the hope they wise up and hire him again. Claudio, for as bad as they've booked him for a while now after a hot start, has been given a ton of TV match time to shine. He deserves better booking, but he's gotten more than a lot of talent gets. If he's looked at as a better worker now it's only because more people have been exposed to what he can do, and to be fair to WWE, they have given him a platform in the ring to show how good he is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Staples Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 J You can make up alternative Chris Harris histories if you like. But he was a guy who told TNA he was interested in leaving and was given a whiner gimmick as his TNA contract ran out (I've never said anything positive about TNA booking but that is standard jobbing a leaving guy out booking) was signed to WWF where he was kept under contract for six months, only used three times, told he couldn't use his moveset (outside of perfectplex) , given ugly ring gear, no promotional packages, sent out cold for one match versus a manager (where memory of the sheet coverage was they hadn't come up with a ring name until time of show), not used again for three weeks, given an odd backstage skit (as I remember the sheet explanation at the time, there was a booking plan for where skit would lead later in show but then they decided to drop that booking but somehow forgot to drop skit), given another match a week later and then released. And then didn't get within spitting distance of a steady wrestling paycheck for four years. I'm sorry, but I'm honestly not getting your point. What alternative history? Guys have been signed before and taken ages to show up on TV and have been fine. Umaga (him again) was re-signed in 12/05 and didn't reappear until April of the next year. He was on TV for a month. Yes, he was tossed out there with no promotional packaging, but so was Sheamus, Evan Bourne and Jack Swagger. All three guys showed up with no real direction for a month or two before being given something to do and have been fine. Monty Brown is someone that was brought up and if he never retired, I'd assume he'd also be doing fine. He was only around for a few months, but was used consistently as a focal point for the ECW brand. I'm not saying WWE has never tried to bury guys (ie Low Ki as Kaval), but Harris is a strange fellow to focus on. I do believe TNA would have picked him up even they thought he had any value. Kazarian is another guy who left TNA, spent maybe a month on the C show then (Velocity) before getting released. It took him about two years before TNA actually did anything worthwhile with him, but they gave him a second chance. If they saw something in Harris, they would have grabbed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 Going off topic a bit, I think most of us who have posted in this thread pretty much agree that Samoa Joe would have failed in WWE. But is there possibly a window where he might have had some success? The only thing I can think of is if Joe had signed at the same time as Punk. Then, he would have wound up in OVW at the same time as Punk and worked under Heyman, who I assume would have given him the Taz push in OVW, then brought him to ECW with Punk as the new Taz and had him run through guys for a few months. I don't know if it would have lasted past December to Dismember, and I assume there are many who would have taken even more glee in beating the shine off of Joe than they did beating the shine off of Punk, but for six months on the WWE's C-Brand, I think Joe would have been a star. If he had gotten himself over during this period, he MIGHT have had a chance to sustain it long-term, as Punk eventually did. More likely, I think after Heyman leaves, they beat him until he's a nobody and that's pretty much the end of Samoa Joe in WWE, but there's a chance I'm wrong. Is there any other period where he might have had a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm sorry, but I'm honestly not getting your point. What alternative history? Guys have been signed before and taken ages to show up on TV and have been fine. Umaga (him again) was re-signed in 12/05 and didn't reappear until April of the next year. He was on TV for a month. Yes, he was tossed out there with no promotional packaging, but so was Sheamus, Evan Bourne and Jack Swagger. All three guys showed up with no real direction for a month or two before being given something to do and have been fine. Monty Brown is someone that was brought up and if he never retired, I'd assume he'd also be doing fine. He was only around for a few months, but was used consistently as a focal point for the ECW brand. I'm not saying WWE has never tried to bury guys (ie Low Ki as Kaval), but Harris is a strange fellow to focus on. I do believe TNA would have picked him up even they thought he had any value. Kazarian is another guy who left TNA, spent maybe a month on the C show then (Velocity) before getting released. It took him about two years before TNA actually did anything worthwhile with him, but they gave him a second chance. If they saw something in Harris, they would have grabbed him. It doesn’t matter whether WWE screwed Chris Harris or if Chris Harris screwed Chris Harris. The question was: “was anyone such a bust in the WWE that no one wanted to touch them afterward. “ Chris Harris was a guy who was such a bust in the WWE (it doesn’t matter why) that he became untouchable. Kazarian’s a weird guy in that he worked for TNA with an expired contract for at least a month, worked indies for a while, then was signed by WWE, not really a bust there just not a guy who did a lot, was released went back to working indies then got picked up by TNA again. He like Danielson and Sydal was a guy leaving a freelance gig for the WWE. Leaving a freelance gig is different from leaving a steady gig. We’ve all had a steady job or I hope at least know someone who has had a steady job. We know what goes into calculating leaving a steady job for a risky but potentially better job. We know what goes into calculating leaving a steady job for the super risky world of freelancing. Wrestling isn’t some magical candyland where there are no risks involved in leaving a steady paying gig. Again jdw: So everyone who bombed out of the WWE quickly ended up in TNA making big bucks? We're not talking about someone like the Hardyz or Christian who had been pushed on WWE tv for ages that TNA marks out for. What if Joe went to development, farted around there for 2 years making less than he did in TNA, got a modest push for a year but Vince & Creative decided he was nothing special and ran him. He's suddenly end up in TNA making more than he did after 3 years of a push in TNA... and also enough to make up for three years of making less in the WWE than he would have in TNA? Bix says: This is a guy who was consensus top 5 to top 10 in the world for several years, and that was largely erased even before he took that bump on the stairs. You can't say the same thing about the workrate indy guys who didn't do well in WWE. I really have no idea what this paragraph means. I mean I'd rather see Kawada spending the first decade of this century working U-style than in Hustle, it's a shame that he became washed up in a comedy fed but I don't think he made the wrong choice by collecting a paycheck. Following Midwest indies from 200-2004, I'd say Austin Aries and Bam Neely/Magnus Maximus were the two most highly pimped potentially great workrate indy guys. Not sure what happened to Neely's rep post WWE. I don't think either of those sentences address what you're saying. But not sure what you're saying. EDIT: Oh, and as for the Chris Harris stuff: I know that post-Braden Walker the conventional wisdom online is that James Storm was really just carrying him for years. Was it a meme at all beforehand? I know that Storm was considered the worker of the team by other wrestlers back then. Harris was a guy who Meltzer would complement for his poise. I know as far back as during his period in WCW he was a guy who was pimped on southern indy promotion boards as being full of potential. I remember arguing at the time that of your ex-Prentice guys getting WCW use that Stylin’Shane Eden was the horse to get behind…and pretty much Harris was everyone else’s consensus pick. I wrote regularly about Storm being far superior in TNA and that wasn’t anywhere near a meme. Harris got significantly better over time at TNA. I think he came off super solid when AMW turned heel. He is a guy who Jarret booked in singles opposite himself as early as I want to say 04/05 and ( I don’t want to get all Meltzerish “poise” and “polish”) but carried himself like he belonged in singles or multi-men matches with ex-WWE guys (Angle, Christian, Dustin, Booker, Jarret). Had the kind of fundamentals where he didn’t look out of place in those match-ups (in the way that Abyss or Kazarian can feel like overpushed enhancement talent in the same situations). I'd also point out that TNA is one of the shittiest poorest booked wrestling feds in history run by absolute idiots And (while I don't think Bix is doing this) people seem to believe that with Chris Harris TNA was able to do some sort of Paul Heyman meets Jimmy Grippo smoke and mirrors type creation. This is TNA they couldn't hide the negatives and accentuate the positives if they wanted to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 A)He was set up to suck. No, he just sucked. Joe's natural body type is kind of chubby, while Harris simply got fat. He deserved to be buried and fired. Awful example. Awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 A)He was set up to suck. No, he just sucked. Joe's natural body type is kind of chubby, while Harris simply got fat. He deserved to be buried and fired. Awful example. Awful. It doesn’t matter whether WWE screwed Chris Harris or if Chris Harris screwed Chris Harris. The question was: “was anyone such a bust in the WWE that no one wanted to touch them afterward. “ The answer is yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicious&delicious Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 One other element that adds to the strangeness of Joe remaining in TNA all of this time are his friendships with Cena and Punk. I have no idea how close they still are, but when the 1 and 2 in the company can vouch for your work and reputation you have a much better chance to swim than the Braden Walkers of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 The only way you could think that Joe would have fared similarly to Bam Neely or Chris Harris in WWE is if you believe that working ability is completely irrelevant to the level of one's push. There's a huge difference between "consensus top 10 in the world" and "didn't look out of place against Jeff Jarrett." Sure, Joe would have had to do some slumming in the midcard. But I don't see how that's a dealbreaker if he's content to draw a paycheck in TNA. He's certainly not a headcase like Low Ki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 Yeah, but let's be real, he was "consensus top 10 in the world" among smart mark workrate fans of that time. I was a big Joe fan, and I even thought the praise of his work and the ***** ratings from Meltzer were overboard. He was having great matches working as the big man against smaller "workrate" guys on an indy setting. TNA pretty much copied that formula when they booked him to destroy X Division guys to get him him over and then ran with him working against Daniels and Styles for a while. Joe was good, but top 10 in the world is a stretch, and I'm positive nobody in WWE was viewing him as a top 10 in the world talent at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 Joe was good, but top 10 in the world is a stretch, and I'm positive nobody in WWE was viewing him as a top 10 in the world talent at that point. Maybe, but I guarantee you they thought he was way better than Neely and Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasch Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I am perplexed by the talk of that bump "crippling" Joe. Could someone smarten me up please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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