Bix Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Let's review: - CM Punk, who became Joe's best friend as their careers intertwined, chooses WWE over TNA, is over and selling merchandise from the start, and eventually ends up as a made guy and the best heel in the company in who knows how many years. Who made the company want him enough to shell out for a tour bus and Cult of Personality. - Bryan Danielson is still the best wrestler in the world, getting to have 20 minute matches on Raw that are put over on commentary and in the curated tweets as 5* classics, is currently the best character in WWE, sells a ton of T-shirts, is at worst the second most over WWE babyface with live crowds, and about to get an even bigger push to set up a babyface match PPV main event with John Cena that WWE wants to be an all-time classic match. And he pushed/motivated Kane to the best run of his career. - Tyler Black and Jon Moxley are, along with a Samoan named Joe who is a much better worker than Samoa Joe right now, collectively the super protected #2 heels in WWE who live crowds have latched onto and are having a ton of great long matches on TV each week. Also they all have titles that they elevated as soon as they won them and Moxley is, with 6 months on the main roster, considered one of the 3-5 best guys in WWE at putting a match together. - Matt Sydal got pushed about as much as a really short guy who isn't Rey Mysterio could be and then some. In spite of being kind of a fuck up, it looks like his old role is waiting for him when he returns from a very long injury layoff. - Chris Hero is still in developmental, but it's clear WWE has big plans for him. In a decade he went from the best indy guy nobody expected to go to WWE to being WWE's top prospect. - Claudio Castagnoli...well, it looks like he's getting a renewed push after tonight's Raw. Samoa Joe? He picked TNA over WWE, and TNA gave him a great push until a pilled up Kurt Angle (literally?) fell into their laps, sacrificing his undefeated streak to the one guy who would gain absolutely nothing by beating him. Then he lost to Angle twice, helping draw TNA's biggest PPV #s in the process, did nothing for a couple years, finally beat Angle, dropped the title to Sting a few months later, taking one of the stupidest bumps of all time during the match and permanently injuring himself in the process, and now...what the fuck is he even doing? He walks around aimlessly occasionally squashing undercard guys. He's been in limbo for years. Nobody has any desire to see him wrestle. I suppose he's probably well paid, but he'd probably be paid a lot better in WWE and he wouldn't have crippled himself by doing a dropkick onto the concrete stairs in an arena's seats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 He seemed to be getting his mojo back last year after he started teaming with Magnus, and had that match with A-Double on PPV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 What's mind boggling is you'd think TNA would have pushed the hell out of him to convince others in his position to stay with TNA instead of going to WWE. Instead he was put in one forgettable angle after another in between periods of being forgotten about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 He also had a giant dick drawn on his face for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 What makes Joe's situation even more sad/hilarious is when you think back to 2006 and the amount of people who went "Oh My God, look at that guy in face paint playing a Samoan Savage character in 2006! Thank God Samoa Joe re-signed with TNA where he'll be respected instead of ending up as Umaga!" Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Since I can't sleep and I think I'll forget this: If Joe doesn't become dissatisfied with Zero-One because they wanted him to be a garden variety pro wrestling Samoan, does he go to WWE since he's not dreading a retread of the frustrating experience he had gone through fairly recently? It was clearly something that was important to him. Also, since I feel like this cannot be stated enough: There was a that period last year where Raw was completely, undisputedly built around Punk and Daniel Bryanson, with both in at least 3 segments per show, and in Punk's case they were all pretty damn long. This after they feuded on and off for months in a program that took up a bunch of time on Raw each week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I can't help but think if/when Joe watches Raw, this is his reaction: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Mental to think in 2005/2006 he realistically seemed like he could be a huge deal in wrestling. His stock is pretty worthless these days. Still, give the bloke credit, he's still over with the live crowds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 He most likely would have run a foul in WWE due his weight issues and who knows if his knees could withstand a full time schedule. TNA screwed it up with him numerous times for sure but I don't think he would have been a big success in WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Thank God Samoa Joe re-signed with TNA where he'll be respected instead of ending up as Umaga!" He certainly ended up doing better than Umaga... But yeah, like rovert said I'm not convinced he would have done that much better in the WWE at the time he was hot in TNA. It was a long time ago now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I'm not sure he would have had a better WWE run either, but if you look at the ROH roster from 2003-2005, Joe was pretty much the undisputed top guy there, and here we are ten years later and he has been passed by a lot of guys who were there at the same time. In fact, of the top guys who were there while he was there, arguably the only guy who has it worse than Joe these days is Nigel McGuinness, and that's only because the reckless style he adapted wound up destroying his body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 What's the deal anyway? Does he just keep renewing his deal with TNA? How long is he under contract? I understood signing with TNA in the first place, but I don't really understand why he has stayed there so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Love this thread, as even if it doesn't matter much any more, Joe's plight is one of the really unfortunate misses and what ifs in recent years. I remember discovering ROH back in the day and waiting on line in the lobby outside the hotel ballroom, watching Foley and then Joe make their way to the back. He was cool as hell with the fans, had an awesome presence, especially for ROH, and then brought the heat in the ring. I knew better when he jumped to TNA, but nonetheless held out hope he'd have an awesome run on top and really change the promotion. The first Angle match is still the only TNA PPV I've ever bought, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What a lost opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 To be fair, we all thought Vince Russo was out of the business for good when Joe signed with TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Thank God Samoa Joe re-signed with TNA where he'll be respected instead of ending up as Umaga!" He certainly ended up doing better than Umaga... Well yes, but I wasn't comparing their situations in life so much as their respective pushes and booking. In the ensuing 12 months after the debut of the Samoan savage character Joe was apparently so lucky to have avoided (not that I believe Joe was ever going to be Umaga, but others claimed it, and regardless the comparison was a common one at the time), Joe failed to win the title off Jarrett, lost to Angle and had Russo come in and kill him fairly dead, while Umaga was protected mercilessly, had two PPV main events with Cena and then was part of the biggest drawing wrestling match of all time. Joe should have been so unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 It was only 2 years ago that Austin was praising Joe and recommending that WWE should hire him as soon as possible. He's still tight with Punk and Cena. So if he went to WWE, he's got people too vouch for him. He needs to get out of TNA. There is no future there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I'm not sure WWE would want him at this point. Although I guess they could book a good run of him fighting to regain respect against the guys who passed him. Not that they would. I feel bad for Joe. He was a gateway guy who helped me find a lot of the wrestling I like best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I think people overestimate how much it was a bad decision for Samoa Joe to go to TNA. Sure, he would have come into WWE as Umaga, but that character was one dimensional, limited and had no real legs long term. How long do most monster heels last on the back of a mega push before they end up being 'comedy' faces who read poetry or dance around in ridiculous gear? There is no way of saying whether he would have ended up like Albert or Great Khali instead of like CM Punk. In fact, for the first year in TNA it seemed like a fantastic decision on his part. He was booked perfectly, had some amazing matches, was really over, won the title. Sure, things have declined dramatically since then, but not to the point where his character is a laughing stock, and I'm sure he still earns decent money. Don't forget, at that time WWE had no real track record of giving indie guys good storylines and opportunities, and they also had a huge roster of established, big name stars who were dominating the main event scene. It is no surprise that Joe thought he would get more opportunities in TNA. He certainly wasn't the only one to turn Vince down in that time frame either: I remember AJ Styles and even Danielson declining development deals. It is only in the last three or four years that they have started pushing the indie guys, and that is mainly due to Danielson and Punk being extremely talented all round workers. Joe was brilliant in the ring but he didn't have the total package of Danielson, Punk or even Sydal who has a great look and spectacular moveset. He is a case of lost potential, either that or he just was peaking in 2003-2005 and was always going to go downhill from there both physically and character wise. His aura is gone now, but in 2004 he legitimately had a claim to be one of the best, most exciting wrestlers on the planet. Maybe a last shot in WWE would motivate him again. Lets not forget that he has done better than some of his ROH contemporaries as well. He isn't on the level of the successful WWE guys, but he has certainly made more money and had bigger pushes than the likes of Low-Ki, Nigel McGuinness, Alex Shelley, Homicide, Colt Cabana, Paul London, Jimmy Rave etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 It's the conventional wisdom that Joe "would have been Umaga," but was that ever reported to be true? There would have been opposition to him within the company due to his working style and he's not an Afa relative, which means he doesn't have the goodwill within the company reserved for members of the Samoan wrestling family. I can't see them giving him the monster push. Furthermore, I remember something on DVDVR, or maybe it was the old Kaiju board, where Kevin Cook and/or PolishBobStupak (Matthew Randazzo) said something about how Vince announced to the creative team that he was tired of seeing "the internet" (code for Meltzer) praise Joe so much and he wanted to sign him just to bury him. Someone within the company then leaked this to Joe and that's why he chose TNA. Not sure if I have that all correct or if it's accurate, but that's how I remember it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 This thread could also have AJ Styles & Sting inserted in Joe's place as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Eh, I think Sting's basically enjoyed himself, done some good work, amazingly somehow not fully tarnished his image, and probably had a lot more flexibility than he might have had with Vince. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Sting would've been in the HOF....had at least one DVD set and would've had matches against Taker, Rock, maybe more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Let's review: Samoa Joe? He picked TNA over WWE, and TNA gave him a great push until a pilled up Kurt Angle (literally?) fell into their laps, sacrificing his undefeated streak to the one guy who would gain absolutely nothing by beating him. Then he lost to Angle twice, helping draw TNA's biggest PPV #s in the process, did nothing for a couple years, finally beat Angle, dropped the title to Sting a few months later, taking one of the stupidest bumps of all time during the match and permanently injuring himself in the process, and now...what the fuck is he even doing? He walks around aimlessly occasionally squashing undercard guys. He's been in limbo for years. Nobody has any desire to see him wrestle. I suppose he's probably well paid, but he'd probably be paid a lot better in WWE and he wouldn't have crippled himself by doing a dropkick onto the concrete stairs in an arena's seats. eh.. It was a different time then, a much more top heavy WWE with fewer real spots. Ban Neely was a Midwest indy guy who had a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses as Claudio. At the time he got a Bam Neely push, not an Antonio Cesaro one. Chris Benoit killed his family which led to the WWE needing to put drug free jr heavyweight in a more prominent role (where he didn't fail)...and that kind of opened "maybe what these indy guys can do will translate to big stage" doors. Benoit killing his family wasn't going to lead to a bigger push for a heavy drinking Samoan small heavyweight. For a guy legit over 230, I don't see any reason to believe that Joe would have been booked better than Brad Allen, Bam Neely, James Curtis or Braden Walker. He probably would have been more effective at carrying Ricky Ortiz...but so what? I suppose he's probably well paid, but he'd probably be paid a lot better in WWE and he wouldn't have crippled himself by doing a dropkick onto the concrete stairs in an arena's seats. So acute toxicity is less crippling and stupid than drop kick to concrete stairs? Multiple HHH reckless chairshots to head in handicapped match, more or less crippling and dangerous? Nobody has any desire to see him wrestle. I hardly watch anyone wrestle in TNA. But memory is people liked him last year in sprint tag match opposite Akiyama/Saito with the endless series of Magnus elbowdrops , and I've enjoyed his other indy stuff in UWF , N.EW, etc. I'm curious why this question always comes up with Joe and never AJ Styles who turned down a developmental contract for TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 I think Sting is one of the few people that has benefitted from the existance of TNA. I don't think he ever would have gone to WWE if they required him to work any sort of road schedule, so he's been able to have a second career working a handful of matches per year and getting paid reasonably well for it. Hard for me to call that a bad decision, even if a Wrestlemania match against Undertaker would have been pretty cool. And I still think after he's done with TNA, we could still see Sting in the WWE Hall of Fame, a Sting DVD set, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 Sting would've been in the HOF....had at least one DVD set and would've had matches against Taker, Rock, maybe more I think the guy's happy, is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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