Bix Posted June 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I am perplexed by the talk of that bump "crippling" Joe. Could someone smarten me up please?He landed back first on the stairs, and slowed down pretty noticeably immediately after that match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 So based on the people other than Tom, it sounds like 100% of the people (with the exception of Harris) who the WWE has signed to a developmental deal from 2005 to the present have all made more money than Joe has since then. Those that didn't become stars like Punk and Daniels all either still made a lot of money in the WWE, or went to TNA or the indy circuit and made over the course of those 8 years more money than Joe. Does anyone have a list of every last person who has signed a developmental deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Just to be clear: I don't think Joe has made 100% the wisest choices in his career. But in a total shit stye of a business, he actually has gotten paid quite well over the past 8 years, which a hell of a lot of folks chasing their dream haven't. I've watched Generico up close do stuff that is about as stupid as Joe's dumb stuff, and for likely peanuts compared to what Joe has made. Could Generico do better from here on out? Maybe. But he's got 8 years of money making to make up, and just as many years of killing his body. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Every single person who signed a developmental contract isn't the proper comparison because not all developmental talent is created equal. It's like those articles that talk about new Ph.Ds trying to obtain tenure-track positions that make it seem like someone with a Ph.D from Princeton has the same prospects as someone with one from the University of BFE. There's plenty of things you could say about WWE, but the cream usually rises to the top eventually, as Punk and Danielson are currently showing. Even Christian, who spurned WWE to sign with TNA, received a respectable push when he returned. And bombing in WWE isn't a death sentence if you're good enough. Low Ki hasn't exactly been scrambling for bookings despite being a massive pain in the ass to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Everyone who has signed a developmental deal is a fair comp: that's all the WWE has been offering guys. Even terrific indy workers like Hero get tossed into development where they could wash out, or run a foul of a Power, before even getting a seat at the Big Boy Table. We're not talking about anyone who got a Randy Savage push. Even Brock didn't get that way back in 2002. He went to OVW for a stretch. Of course they invested more into Brock in signing him than they would have Joe, so Brock's not a comp either. Speaking of Low Ki, who do you think made more money over the past 8 years: Joe or Ki? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I would guess Low Ki. I bet he's near the top of the indy pay scale for U.S. indy dates, without having to give a cut to TNA, and probably makes decent money in Japan. I really doubt Joe is making the kind of money that a Kurt Angle or Jeff Hardy is making in TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 Sure, Hero could rub someone the wrong way and get jobbed to oblivion. By the same token, he could get run over by a bus. Or NXT Arena could get hit by a meteor. Why are we discussing worst-case scenarios as if they're highly likely to occur? Look at the guys mentioned in the OP. WWE's track record with high-profile indy talent is actually pretty good. The main exception is Low Ki, and again, a big part of that was him being a gigantic shithead. Of course, Joe had no way of knowing all this at the time. But saying that signing with TNA was the smart move in retrospect is pretty ludicrous, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 History shows that like 90% of the time WWE always try to get their moneys worth out of the top Indy names they sign. With the exception of Cabana, I don't see how anyone was mistreated: Kendrick, Low-Ki and London were all pushed and later released for justifiable reasons. Everyone else, from Punk, Bryan, Ambrose, Cesaro, Bourne (despite the wellness stuff and being on a Ken Kennedy level of injury proneness) and Rollins have done well for themselves without any signs of slowing down, so I'm not sure how someone could even make a case for why guys like Ohno, Generico, Neville, Callihan, Graves etc. wont reach their respective potential. Having a succesul Indy career is an advantage in WWE, not a detriment. The proof is in the pudding really. Joe unequivocally would have been a star from my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 So people are probably a going to ignore my above post. I'm genuinly interested as your view seems astoundlingly inaccurate. If you look at the list of guys signed since 2003-ish till now,, popular Indy wrestlers have mostly done VERY well for themselves in WWE. What indication is there that Joe wouldnt have been successful if he signed with them instead of TNA? Really not trying to be confrontational or patronising, but that stance doesn't make sense to me at all and it's something that I've read over a thousand times on message boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 So people are probably a going to ignore my above post. Chill, Bro. Maybe you just made a great point and no one wants to argue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 I would guess Low Ki. I bet he's near the top of the indy pay scale for U.S. indy dates, without having to give a cut to TNA, and probably makes decent money in Japan. I really doubt Joe is making the kind of money that a Kurt Angle or Jeff Hardy is making in TNA. I have some doubts on just how much a top of the indy pay scale guy nets relative to what Joe nets in TNA. If it was a shitload, Joe would have left TNA and gone back to the indies making more money than Ki. Instead, Joe has stayed with TNA. Money in Japan isn't what it once was. Plus, Ki isn't a heavyweight top of the card guy there. Also doubt he worked / works as many dates there as say Hansen did in AJPW in 1996 (i.e. every card on all 8 series). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Low Ki just go to places like Japan for short runs? It seems like he's self-aware enough of his shithead-edness to not stay in one place too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Low Ki just go to places like Japan for short runs? It seems like he's self-aware enough of his shithead-edness to not stay in one place too long. Is he hurt? Using sites like wrestlingdata are pretty up-to-date (and profightdb won't load right now), but I only see about three matches from him this year - NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 7 (1/4/13) and two shows in Australia in April-May. According to the site, last year he did NJPW tours totaling 52 matches in Japan and only about ten North American matches (EVOLVE, DGUSA, JAPW). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Staples Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 So people are probably a going to ignore my above post. I'm genuinly interested as your view seems astoundlingly inaccurate. If you look at the list of guys signed since 2003-ish till now,, popular Indy wrestlers have mostly done VERY well for themselves in WWE. What indication is there that Joe wouldnt have been successful if he signed with them instead of TNA? Really not trying to be confrontational or patronising, but that stance doesn't make sense to me at all and it's something that I've read over a thousand times on message boards. This board moves a bit slow at times due to the relatively small userbase. Look it at this way. In hindsight, it does seem stupid. But in 2005, when that generation of indy guys really started getting signed, it wasn't known how'd they be used. The chances in the 2005 environment that a fairly chubby and relatively short Samoan guy getting used as well as the Punks and Danielsons today were slim. The only smaller guys that were in the upper tier were Carlito for a short while, Rey and Shawn Michaels who was grandfathered in. The rest were the typical 6 ft and/or cut bodybuilder types that were usually pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 This board moves a bit slow at times due to the relatively small userbase. Or that people didn't find it a terribly compelling post. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 21, 2013 Report Share Posted June 21, 2013 This board moves a bit slow at times due to the relatively small userbase. Or that people didn't find it a terribly compelling post. :/ Probably. How is "he wouldn't have been pushed because he's chubby and worked in ROH" a compelling and well thought out argument though? There were already talented guys with similar builds who had main-evented WrestleMania just in the previous decade and the small group of his contemporaries who didn't make it were released mostly for good reason (unless someone wants to make the case for why Brian Kendrick, Kaval and Paul London should have been mega stars). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 So people are probably a going to ignore my above post. Is there anything worse then someone complaining about no one responding to their post? Just awful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 You'll get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 You'll get over it. I don't think I will. The big question, I think Loss asked it earlier, is why does he keep resigning with TNA? I guess the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 You'll get over it. I don't think I will. The big question, I think Loss asked it earlier, is why does he keep resigning with TNA? I guess the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Maybe he's happy there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Really, Punk went through several patches of being badly mistreated by WWE from September 2005 till he resigned with the company in the early summer of 2011. The same goes with Daniel Bryan until he got over as a cult figure at WrestleMania 28. The only reason WWE got their moneys worth with the two is that they were able to overcome all the attempted burials and bad booking due to their innate talent and confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Staples Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Really, Punk went through several patches of being badly mistreated by WWE from September 2005 till he resigned with the company in the early summer of 2011. The same goes with Daniel Bryan until he got over as a cult figure at WrestleMania 28. The only reason WWE got their moneys worth with the two is that they were able to overcome all the attempted burials and bad booking due to their innate talent and confidence. Bryan went into Wrestlemania 28 as WHC. It sucks that he got pinned in 18 seconds, but he had a decent reign from December to April. Punk has always been treated pretty well. When has he ever been buried? People always seem to cry burial whenever a guy isn't being pushed at the time. Burial is something that happened to Paul Burchill. He went from having a pretty over pirate gimmick to randomly being stuck on Velocity jobbing to Road Warrior Animal and feuding with Simon Dean. Punk has always been a featured part of whatever brand he's on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Really, Punk went through several patches of being badly mistreated by WWE from September 2005 till he resigned with the company in the early summer of 2011. The same goes with Daniel Bryan until he got over as a cult figure at WrestleMania 28. The only reason WWE got their moneys worth with the two is that they were able to overcome all the attempted burials and bad booking due to their innate talent and confidence. Don't know about Punk, but they had Bryan marked from day 1. The first season of NXT was all about getting him over. The fake firing and having him as the who comes back at SummerSlam against the Nexus was money. I think they actually know what they are doing when it comes to booking that kid, bumps in the road aside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2013 Report Share Posted June 23, 2013 Are we ever going to find out the truth about that damn firing? There has been lots of speculation, but nothing ever confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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