Iron Sheik

[El-P]

I never got why Mustafa was basically doing the Bushwhackers walk...

[Loss]

I agree the wedding was sold as the main event. I still wonder why Jake and Taker were left off the card because them and Slaughter would have struck me as a much more marketable match but I guess not.

I think they wanted Jake and Undertaker to be out of sight, out of mind before the big angle. They were also building to Hogan/Undertaker later in the year and didn't want them crossing paths yet, and it was too soon after the turn for any heels to get their hands on Jake.

[Matt D]

The TV build was to Taker vs Warrior. I THINK there was actually some sort of Slaughter/Taker Team-Up on TV before the PPV actually. I forget how though. Hogan/Warrior vs Slaughter/Taker would have made a decent amount of sense.

[Superstar Sleeze]

We are having this thread and NO ONE cares to argue that someone thinks the Iron Sheik's top run was in Mid-Atlantic in 1980. Seriously? The guy was chosen to be a heel transitional champ in the WWF that is a huge badge of honor. In a babyface territory like the WWF to be selected to be champ indicates how good he McMahons thought you were a heel.

 

Sheik was WWF's top heel in 1984 by far. He had Hogan's best matches in 1984, a really good bloody one in Philly (April or May I believe). Sheik/Slaughter was the number one feud in the WWF. Hogan was the top attraction, but he was not involved in the top feud he was taking on an assortment of characters: Studd, Valentine, Dr. D, Orndorff and Sheik. The Slaughter/Sheik angle was the blood feud of that year and a big draw. The Sheik/Slaughter Bootcamp Match outdrew the Brawl To End It All, which was the only think I would consider maybe a bigger angle (Cyndi Lauper was huge). In addition, he was getting singles matches with Backlund, Tito and Andre. When he was not wrestling jobbers, he was wrestling the top 5 babyfaces in the promotion and usually as the main drawing match.

 

Then the dismissal of the Sheik/Volkoff tag team like it was just some random occurrence that they won the titles. They were the number one heel tag team from late 1984 when they faced off against Slaughter/JYD and until the rise of the Dream Team. The Sheik&Volkoff vs Slaughter/JYD did some big business and kept the Slaughter/Sheik feud fresh. Adonis/Murdoch were being phased out in favor of Sheik and Volkoff and thats why the won the titles. Sheik&Volkoff vs US Express was the number one tag feud for the majority of the year. At this point, the Dream Team assumes the mantle of number one heel tag team.

 

It is the 80s, no heels ever win. Judging things by wins and losses versus major babyfaces is foolish. However, 1984 results does indicate the Sheik was being protected because the amount of jabronis he was still being fed. If he was facing major babyfaces, he would either be getting beaten or having clusterfuck finishes. By 1985, you see that happening with matches against Blackjack Mulligan and Junkyard Dog.

 

Did Sheik have the run on top that some the territory stars? No, not at all. Are there more deserving candidates if we took a non-WWF-centric view, of course. However, I was watching ESPN back during college basketball season. Who got name-dropped Sgt Slaughter and Iron Sheik. Iron Sheik is a relatively big name in the wrestling community because he played such a great classic wrestler. When people think of wrestlers it is people like Sheik who pop in their head because of how he looked and was presented. Add in that he is a WWF guy that puts him over a bunch of candidates. I just did think you are severely understating his runs 1984 and 1985 where he was a huge part of the WWF promotion.

[PeteF3]

We are having this thread and NO ONE cares to argue that someone thinks the Iron Sheik's top run was in Mid-Atlantic in 1980. Seriously? The guy was chosen to be a heel transitional champ in the WWF that is a huge badge of honor. In a babyface territory like the WWF to be selected to be champ indicates how good he McMahons thought you were a heel.

Or it's an indication that the decision was made to transition the title to Hogan and Sheik was the next scheduled challenger.

 

When Stan Stasiak won the title from Pedro, it wasn't because he was thought of as a major heel--he was Pedro's opponent when the decision was made to go back to Bruno. That was literally all that went into the process (that, and "Don't change the title at MSG because someone might die"). There's the alleged story about Backlund wanting to drop the title to someone with an amateur background, but that's not one I really believe.

[JerryvonKramer]

My argument is that if you look at the trajectory of his career, he wasn't treated like a main event guy in Japan or in Georgia in 81-2; so when he came into WWF the plan was surely not for him to be top guy.

 

The argument about heels never winning in the 80s is true only to an extent. A top heel would lose or draw to top faces, but not to faces up and down the card as Sheik was doing in Georgia and even towards the end of his Mid-Atlantic run -- and pretty much from mid-84 onwards in WWF.

 

He was in the right place at the right time to get the WWF title and that may have elevated him for a 6 month period after that with the Slaughter feud. However, I'm not buying that Sheik was a bigger deal than Piper or Muraco in that same time frame. You can say wins count for nothing, but Piper had lots of them in 84 vs. Rocky Johnson, Ivan Putski and Jimmy Snuka. Muraco seems to have been better protected and booked stronger as well. Their careers were on an upwards curve, Sheik's was going in the other direction.

 

Sheik and Volkoff beating the US Express was treated as a major upset. How about this: it was the very first Wrestlemania and they wanted to have title changes on it, which is why they are dropping the straps back to Windham and Rotunda by June in a match that lasted less than 4 minutes. They were interim champs.

 

After about September, they are solidly midcard fodder and arguably tagteam JTTSs by 86 used to get guys like The Fabulous Rougeaus, The Islanders and The Bulldogs over.

 

If they were a top tagteam, it wasn't for very long. Again, you can say wins and losses count for shit, but you can also compare the way the Dreamteam were booked as champs to the way Sheik and Volkoff were Dreamteam got tons of wins against established teams on TV and at house shows, Sheik and Volkoff jobbed to the US Express around the horn. The spread of wins and losses in the Dreamteam's feud with the Bulldogs is much much more evenly spread too. They were consistently booked more strongly.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Stan Stasiak was the expected retort, but I hardly think Sheik was just the next scheduled challenger. Backlund fought Don Muraco, Ivan Koloff, the Samoans, Sgt. Slaughter, the Masked Superstar and the Iron Sheik in 1983. There is no doubt Vince Jr was looking to get the belt off Backlund onto someone with more marketability. Vince Jr was looking to go national. He did not want a demographic champion that only appealed to a small segment of the American population. He wanted the ultimate American Hero that would appeal to a wide swath of America. His title victory had to be against a figure that all Americans would revile. Don Muraco, the beach bum is not going to be that iconic moment for the Vince's greatest creation. Vince has kind of gotten way from this over the years, but the reason I think he was such a brilliant promoter was he distilled wrestling into singular moments that are easily disgestible. Other promotions focused on angles. Other focus on matches. Vince focuses on moments. 1980s Vince is so calculating as a promoter there is no way Iron Sheik was just another challenger. He was the transitional champion that Vince needed to create that iconic moment. America triumphs over its Enemies! Vince made the decision that Iron Sheik was the best foreign heel in America at that point.

 

Vince in the 80s was so good at down cycling wrestlers, but still getting so much out of them. He would use the IC and Tag division to keep big stars interesting fresh, but Hogan was an immovable object on top. The more 80s WWF I watch, it is not the angles or wrestling that I find brilliant. It is Vince's booking and his way of capturing and extracting moments out of wrestling. Sheik was a beneficiary of this. Hogan was the top dog, but Sheik was still in very important angles against Slaughter and the US Express over the course of two years.

[Superstar Sleeze]

My argument is that if you look at the trajectory of his career, he wasn't treated like a main event guy in Japan or in Georgia in 81-2; so when he came into WWF the plan was surely not for him to be top guy.

 

The argument about heels never winning in the 80s is true only to an extent. A top heel would lose or draw to top faces, but not to faces up and down the card as Sheik was doing in Georgia and even towards the end of his Mid-Atlantic run -- and pretty much from mid-84 onwards in WWF.

 

He was in the right place at the right time to get the WWF title and that may have elevated him for a 6 month period after that with the Slaughter feud. However, I'm not buying that Sheik was a bigger deal than Piper or Muraco in that same time frame. You can say wins count for nothing, but Piper had lots of them in 84 vs. Rocky Johnson, Ivan Putski and Jimmy Snuka. Muraco seems to have been better protected and booked stronger as well. Their careers were on an upwards curve, Sheik's was going in the other direction.

 

Sheik and Volkoff beating the US Express was treated as a major upset. How about this: it was the very first Wrestlemania and they wanted to have title changes on it, which is why they are dropping the straps back to Windham and Rotunda by June in a match that lasted less than 4 minutes. They were interim champs.

 

After about September, they are solidly midcard fodder and arguably tagteam JTTSs by 86 used to get guys like The Fabulous Rougeaus, The Islanders and The Bulldogs over.

 

If they were a top tagteam, it wasn't for very long. Again, you can say wins and losses count for shit, but you can also compare the way the Dreamteam were booked as champs to the way Sheik and Volkoff were Dreamteam got tons of wins against established teams on TV and at house shows, Sheik and Volkoff jobbed to the US Express around the horn. The spread of wins and losses in the Dreamteam's feud with the Bulldogs is much much more evenly spread too. They were consistently booked more strongly.

WWF has a history of not giving a fuck what other promotions do. They took Backlund out of relative obscurity and turned him into their second longest reigning champion. I don't think WWF was thinking well Georgia treated him like a mid-carder so we would look bad for pushing him to the top. WWF did as they please. They saw money in the Sheik and gave him a big run with Slaughter.

 

 

Muraco was on the downside big time. He has two peaks '81 against Backlund and '83 against Backlund & Snuka. Once he dropped the IC Title to Tito, Muraco was never a major player in the WWF. He did some funny vignettes with Fuji, sure, but he gone for huge periods of time. He is a pretty bad example.

 

Piper, I will definitely buy as someone, who was always well-protected by McMahon. Piper eclipsed Sheik by 1985, but in 1984 they were still establishing Piper. Sheik was still being fed jobbers in early 84 after his title loss.

 

I do not think he was in the right place, right time. I believe he was chosen for the reasons I outline above.

 

I do not recall it being treated as upset, but I have not watched that match in a while. When Sheik & Volkoff were going against Slaughter & JYD (#2 & #3 heels) they treated as a threat. The title change was done because of Wrestlemania, but it is not like Vince chose another heel tag team. He chose Sheik & Volkoff because he believed they were his best heel tag team.

 

I agree with your overarching point that Iron Sheik had a very small peak as a main player, roughly late 1983-85. We would scoff at such a small run when other wrestlers have been able to stand the test of time, but Sheik has stood the test of time in a different way. He is a well-known character from the WWF Golden Age. That is something to be heralded for.

 

I just think you went way OVERBOARD declaring that Sheik's run against Brunzell in Mid-Atlantic somehow is more important than the Sheik/Slaughter feud. I really, really dont think your career trajectory can be broadly described when there were such boundaries between the territories. There are going to be a lot more discrete, transient spikes in the early 80s then you will see in the National era, which have more broad, steady-state behavior.

[Matt D]

Hey according to Portland TV Stasiak had the WWWF belt for years and had more main events in MSG than anyone else in the 70s. I don't know what you guys are talking about.

[JerryvonKramer]

Having a flick through the PDFs from Chris Harrington's forthcoming Wrestlenomics book, but this stuck out to me as it reminded me of the talking about re: Sheik in 84 in this thread:

 

From World Champion to World Champion Jobber, The Iron Sheik 121 losses in 1984, 143 losses in 1985, 103 losses in 1986

Doesn't tell the whole story though since Sheik's total stats for 84 are as follows and he had more matches than any other wrestler that year:

 

250+ matches The Iron Sheik: 276 matches (246 singles, 30 tag) = 48% win

Here's Piper:

 

Roddy Piper: 166 matches (120 singles, 46 tag) = 69% win

Here's Valentine:

 

Greg Valentine: 219 matches (210 singles, 9 tag) = 58% win

Here's Muraco:

 

Don Muraco: 51 matches (45 singles, 6 tag) = 63% win

And here's Orndorff:

 

Paul Orndorff: 240 matches (207 singles, 33 tag) = 63% win

I want to see if this claim is justified:

 

It is the 80s, no heels ever win. Judging things by wins and losses versus major babyfaces is foolish

Here are some heels with some pretty impressive win-loss records from 85:

 

Randy Savage: 148 matches (143 singles, 5 tag) = 80% win

Adrian Adonis: 119 matches (90 singles, 29 tag) = 83% win

Bret Hart: 251 matches (128 singles, 123 tag) = 77% win

Jim Neidhart: 217 matches (102 singles, 115 tag) = 82% win

And from 86:

 

Jake Roberts: 162 match (160 singles, 2 tag) = 69% win

Paul Orndorff: 165 matches (142 singles, 23 tag) = 62% win

Kamala: 76 match (76 singles) = 83% win

87:

 

Randy Savage: 249 matches (221 singles, 28 tag) = 61% win

The Honkytonk Man: 223 matches (201 singles, 22 tag) = 58% win

Bret Hart: 222 matches (20 singles, 202 tag) = 59% win

Jim Neidhart: 210 matches (8 singles, 202 tag) = 61% win

Ted Dibiase: 87 matches (85 singles, 2 tag) = 89% win

Even Honkytonk Man had a positive win percentage.

 

And look at this one from 89:

 

Mr Perfect: 206 match (205 singles, 1 tag) = 96% win

I think, personally, that regardless of whether a guy is a face or a heel wins = momentum and can be taken as evidence of some sort of push.

 

It's just obviously not the case that "heels never won" in the 80s, even in a baby face-centric promotion like WWF.

 

The one very weird stat however, that goes against the idea that wins = push is Flair in 1992:

 

Ric Flair: 203 matches (172 singles, 31 tag) = 20% win

It's clear Flair was number 1 heel in the promotion and champ for much of 1992 but he only won 20% of his matches. Looking at Graham's site it seems like the vast majority of his matches (win or loss) were countout or DQ finishes. So it's not like Flair was laying down for over 100 opponents that year.

 

Still, Flair isn't alone.

 

Piper in 85:

 

Roddy Piper: 134 matches (77 singles, 57 tag) = 22% win

All-in-all not very definitive then since it is possible to be a heel on top with a win percentage in the 20s ... but these seem to be exceptions to the general rule that heels who are being pushed are given wins.

 

I'm not sure if it gets us any closer to proving Sheik was or wasn't number 1 heel in 1984 though.

[Smack2k]

I wouldnt say out of nowhere he won the title from Backlund in '83...he came in like a lot of other challengers of the time, and faced Backlund a few times for the title...finally they had the Persian Club challenge on TV, where Sheik attacked and hurt Backlund's back...leading the match in Dec where he wins the title due to Skaaland tossing in the towel due to Backlund's back and his fear he'd seriously injure it...

[vicious&delicious]

The WWEs revisionist history regarding Sheik has gone on since Hogan's title win. People well-versed in WWF history may recognize Sheik as a transitional heel champion but that is not how he was presented in the 80s. When I first got into wrestling in 87 or 88, I tried to get my hands on every WWF related product and still was not aware of Bob Backlunds existence until the early 90s. I recall being under the impression that Sheik was a long-time champion who our savior soundly defeated for the title to launch Hulkamania.

[Bix]

I can't find it right now but there's a really good McAdam post (I think at WC and probably under his alias) where he tries to explain how shocking Sheiky's title win at the time due to his standing in the business at the time. It was just a year earlier that he was a prelim guy in Memphis after only getting to work a week or two with Lawler.

[Smack2k]

The WWEs revisionist history regarding Sheik has gone on since Hogan's title win. People well-versed in WWF history may recognize Sheik as a transitional heel champion but that is not how he was presented in the 80s. When I first got into wrestling in 87 or 88, I tried to get my hands on every WWF related product and still was not aware of Bob Backlunds existence until the early 90s. I recall being under the impression that Sheik was a long-time champion who our savior soundly defeated for the title to launch Hulkamania.

This is 100% true...I also didnt know about Backlund for a while and when I got into WWF in 1985, The Sheik seemed like the only champion before Hogan there ever was!!

 

 

I can't find it right now but there's a really good McAdam post (I think at WC and probably under his alias) where he tries to explain how shocking Sheiky's title win at the time due to his standing in the business at the time. It was just a year earlier that he was a prelim guy in Memphis after only getting to work a week or two with Lawler.

I would love to read that...as I thought they did a good job doing a quick build, getting Backlund injured and having a good reason for Sheik going over that night.....plus his rematches with Hogan and matches with Slaughter made him look more credible on that short term basis....

[Death From Above]

I hope Buddy Rogers filed a complaint that no one ever talks about that tournament he won in Brazil to win the inaugural belt. ;-)

[Smack2k]

Especially cause he beat Thesz in 2 straight falls!!!