Cena v. Tanahashi

[Dylan Waco]

Cool. I think you're wrong and massively overstating any case you've made in this thread, which consisted of two actual points and lots of potshots. Best of luck if you think otherwise.

Excellent analysis, we've come to expect it from you.

 

To answer Childs question, apparently the answer is no

[goodhelmet]

Jastrau, I have no dog in this fight because I couldn't pick Tanahashi out of a line-up, much less tell you if he was a good wrestler. Lets ignore Dylan's posts for the moment. What about Tanahashi do you think he does well? I articulated what I thought Dick Murdoch did well in matches in the following thread. Use this as a template. It's easier to stay positive when you argue someone's strengths instead of trying to defend against criticisms because you are discussing what you enjoy about a guy instead of trying to tear him down.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=5523355

[ohtani's jacket]

And still no one has stepped in to make a case for Tanahashi. Does the man have no fans on this board?

My wife is a fan. She even has a Tanahashi key holder.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

I enjoy Tanahashi.

[goodhelmet]

But why do you enjoy him? What is Dylan or Childs missing that makes him a good wrestler? What are his positives? Is it as simple as him being a charismatic guy? Is it because he employs a go-go never stop style? Does he draw you into the matches because of certain things he does?

[Dylan Waco]

Actually I want to be fair to Tanahashi here. I don't think he is nearly as "go, go" in the last year or so as he has come off to me at other times. I do think his matches often have other structural quirks that I strongly dislike, but it's not like he's a Dragon Gate guy either.

[goodhelmet]

I wouldn't know if he was a go-go guy or not. It was just a style I used in the example. I could have easily said brawler or high-flyer.

[NintendoLogic]

And still no one has stepped in to make a case for Tanahashi. Does the man have no fans on this board?

I'd offer the same defense I would for Cena: he consistently has good matches. Like Loss, I'm much more concerned with a wrestler's output than a list of attributes. You could pick both guys apart on a micro level, but they manage to put it together on a macro level.

 

I will defend Tanahashi's leg work. It's not filler, it's part of his strategy. His finisher is the High Fly Flow, and the most common counter is to put your knees up. If he damages his opponent's leg, he makes it so they can't capitalize even if they do block it.

[Dylan Waco]

With Cena you can point to micro and macro and most of his big supporters do both regularly.

 

I would also note that this is a textbook case of why I hate "great match theory" because it ends up with people insulating themselves from discussing the finer points of what they like about things.

 

The question I would ask is not dissimilar from the one Will asked. Forget me, or anything you think about how I feel about New Japan. Suppose you were talking to someone else who struck you as an open minded fan and he didn't think Tanahashi had very many good matches. What would you say to that person about why you enjoy Tanahashi? If the answer is "nothing" that's fine, but that's also pretty much a thread killer

[Exposer]

Well, there's this guy here in the Tennessee indy scene named Logan Alvey. I've been to many shows with him on the card over the years and he's been in some good tag matches so I'd say he's a good worker for sure.

[goodhelmet]

And still no one has stepped in to make a case for Tanahashi. Does the man have no fans on this board?

I'd offer the same defense I would for Cena: he consistently has good matches. Like Loss, I'm much more concerned with a wrestler's output than a list of attributes. You could pick both guys apart on a micro level, but they manage to put it together on a macro level.

 

I will defend Tanahashi's leg work. It's not filler, it's part of his strategy. His finisher is the High Fly Flow, and the most common counter is to put your knees up. If he damages his opponent's leg, he makes it so they can't capitalize even if they do block it.

 

What makes the matches great and what is Tanahashi's role in making those matches great? Is he the world's most carryable wrestler with guys who are better than him?

[NintendoLogic]

What can I say? Tanahashi isn't someone like Vader where his strengths immediately jump out at me. I think he's someone for whom the whole is greater than the sum of individual parts. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's a miracle worker. I thought the Ishii match was weak because it was built around offense and striking, which we've already established are not areas of strength for Tanahashi. I would also say that he benefits from working with guys like Okada who will go the extra mile to put over the limb work. With that said, I think he's very good at working his particular style of match.

 

If I were to point to specific things I like, I guess it would be match structure and limb work. Tanahashi's matches generally have a clear narrative flow and logical progression from one segment to the next, which is a big deal to me. As for his limb work, you can criticize the mechanics all you want, but I'm much more concerned with the payoff. If Tanahashi works a limb, it'll usually factor into the finishing stretch in some way. I don't know how many guys are active today for whom that's consistently true.

[Timbo Slice]

I'll say this about Tanahashi. I do like how he paces and lays out a match. The main reason he's so loved is because he can get people into stretch runs pretty consistently. He makes things exciting more often than not.

 

He doesn't have the best offense but it's not the worst. I've seen guys with worse offense (Like Edge, as Eric pointed out). He's normally crisp with moves like his frog splash and his suplexes.

 

But the dude is pretty ridiculously charismatic. And he's flashy. I guess that's why people like him.

 

One thing that hurts Tanahashi is that unless he totally hands over the match to his opponent, his worst tendencies come through (spotty selling, trying to overcomplicate his spots, blowing off psychology to get to the finish). The reason why the Suzuki match worked so well was that they built the match around Suzuki's traditional spots and Suzuki changed things up to keep Tanahashi's stuff looking fresh.

 

The Okada stuff can get stale because Tanahashi chooses between arm and leg work, which Okada always wants to shrug off to get his offense in. And then if Okada responds in kind, Tanahashi can blow that stuff off, too.

 

Why I like Cena is that he understands what his opponent wants to do more and gives him a lot more to work with. I've seen him work so many different types of matches up top just because he was facing different guys, whereas rarely do you see Tanahashi work to his opponent's strengths.

 

That's another issue with this comparison. When we think of an Ace, we think of someone who, by definition, can get a good match out of anyone because of their elasticity. Tanahashi doesn't have what Cena has in that regard at all.

[NintendoLogic]

Sounds to me like the main difference between Cena and Tanahashi is that Tanahashi doesn't have Arn Anderson to put together matches for him.

 

Also, I don't see where Okada is blowing off body part work to get his shit in. If anything, the opposite is true: he acts like he's crippled even when his opponent has hardly done anything to his leg.

[Jimmy Redman]

That isn't my experience.

 

From what I've seen Okada partakes in what I guess I would call kind of "fake" selling. It's hard to explain, but he appears to go through the mechanical motions of selling without actually...selling. He's the type to get his leg worked over, and scream in pain and clutch his leg, and then get up and run around or perform a move without a problem...and then go back to clutching his leg in agony. Selling only when it is convenient, I guess, and not letting it hinder you getting your shit in.

[Matt D]

Sounds to me like the main difference between Cena and Tanahashi is that Tanahashi doesn't have Arn Anderson to put together matches for him.

 

Also, I don't see where Okada is blowing off body part work to get his shit in. If anything, the opposite is true: he acts like he's crippled even when his opponent has hardly done anything to his leg.

Thirty points to NintendoLogic for getting on the Arn Anderson, Super Agent bandwagon.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't know when people decided that leg selling requires you to spend the entire match lying on your back in agony, but that's pretty ridiculous. Things like hitting a tombstone and then selling the impact on your leg or temporarily blocking out the pain to hit a dropkick are perfectly acceptable.

[Jimmy Redman]

I don't know when people decided that leg selling requires you to spend the entire match lying on your back in agony, but that's pretty ridiculous. Things like hitting a tombstone and then selling the impact on your leg or temporarily blocking out the pain to hit a dropkick are perfectly acceptable.

Yes because I totally meant that I require him to spend the entire match lying on his back in agony.

 

I'm not even talking about hitting a big move through adrenaline and selling afterwards. I have no problem with that in principle. What I mean is, again, literally only selling during the match when it suits him. When it is the period of the match during which his leg is being worked over, he's on the ground screaming, clutching his leg, can't walk on it, etc. Then when it his turn to go back on offense, he's back up and doing everything as if his leg wasn't hurt at all. And if he finds a spare moment at some point or other, he'll shake his leg or hold it or something. But his leg won't actually be hurt.

 

That isn't selling. Selling isn't simply a visual cue, like it is enough to grab your leg or scream at various times. Selling is you being able to convince me that your leg is actually hurt, and that you are in pain, or trying to block out the pain, or pushing past the pain through adrenaline or sheer force of will or whatever. Okada doesn't convince me that his leg is hurt. All he does is show me that he knows what selling the leg is supposed to look like.

[NintendoLogic]

Sounds to me like the main difference between Cena and Tanahashi is that Tanahashi doesn't have Arn Anderson to put together matches for him.

 

Also, I don't see where Okada is blowing off body part work to get his shit in. If anything, the opposite is true: he acts like he's crippled even when his opponent has hardly done anything to his leg.

Thirty points to NintendoLogic for getting on the Arn Anderson, Super Agent bandwagon.

 

How many points is being Dylan's Boswell worth? Because you maxed out a long time ago.

[stomperspc]

But why do you enjoy him? What is Dylan or Childs missing that makes him a good wrestler? What are his positives? Is it as simple as him being a charismatic guy? Is it because he employs a go-go never stop style? Does he draw you into the matches because of certain things he does?

I’d break down Tanahashi like this.

 

Positives:

 

* Charismatic

* Relatively polished – weak offense aside, he does not blow a lot of moves or spots

* Pacing – his matches tend to maintain a brisk pace while still clearly building from an opening segment to the body of the match to the stretch run

 

Neutral Attributes:

 

* Bumps fine

* No major issues with selling at least relative to the style of his promotion

 

Negatives:

 

* Weak offense

* Struggles to effectively work extended periods on offense

* Matches can be a bit back and forth perhaps because his limited offense necessitates

 

I not a big Tanahashi fan or anything but there are guys who have gotten by with far more negatives and/or fewer positives than that. The Cena comparison is not a terrible one because if I had to point out a major weakness for both, it would be offense. On the same list for Cena, I’d keep all of the positives and bump up both of the neutrals to positives. I’d also get rid of the negatives except for “weak offense” although if we are weighing them Tanahashi’s offense is more of a problem for him than it is for Cena. Like I said before, I believe that’s largely a reflection of the stylistic differences between their respective promotions. If Tanahashi were in a WWE-like environment and positioned as a typical face where he could sell most of the match and make a short burst comeback, his match quality on the whole would likey improve. At the same time, we can only judge a wrestler on the actual matches they have and the bottom line is Cena has been able to compensate far better for his weak offense than Tanahashi has for his in their respective careers.

 

(On a side note, I don’t have any issue with Tanahashi’s limb work. I liked the April Okada match a lot better than their prior matches and other Tanahashi matches mainly because it focused his offensive attack more and allowed him to rely a little less on his usual offense.)

[NintendoLogic]

Then when it his turn to go back on offense, he's back up and doing everything as if his leg wasn't hurt at all.

But he isn't. That's the key point.

[Jimmy Redman]

Then when it his turn to go back on offense, he's back up and doing everything as if his leg wasn't hurt at all.

No he isn't.

 

In the matches I've seen him in (and I'm certainly not claiming to have seen them all) he often does.

 

He's in agony one minute. Then it's his turn for offense, so he's back up throwing the big dropkick, hitting the piledriver or some other move, walking or running around, even using his legs to put on his wacky submission hold, and his leg that he apparently couldn't stand on isn't hindering him in any way. Oh, but there's a break in the action here so I have time to stop and sell my leg now! He only sells it when the other guy is busy selling, because then he has the time and nothing else to do.

 

If anything I would prefer it if he sold LESS. I feel a huge disconnect when a guy is in searing pain one minute, and then capable of performing his whole moveset the next. If you can do that, how hurt can you really be? And if you're not that hurt, why were you screaming and hobbling so much like you were? If he wasn't so "OMG MY LEG IS BROKEN" about it in the first place, I might not mind so much when he gets over it in the second half of the match. The inconsistency is exposing to me. He's not the only one who does it, by any means, but I do feel that way watching him.

[Matt D]

I think Cena vs Edge from Summerslam 06 is an interesting match because Edge's offense looks way better than usual. I'm not sure if it's the stage or if it's Cena making it look good or what.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is a very facile side note, but what surprises me most here is that Boswell is not only on Nintendologic's radar, but also in his lingo. Might mark the first time in history that Samuel Johnson has been indirectly referenced as part of a diss on a wrestling board. Is that phrase really in everyday parlance?

[Jimmy Redman]

Maybe it's just a personal preference thing, but to me selling a body part is more effective if it actually...hinders you in some way. If you're hurt but you are able to get past it and hit all your moves without issue anyway...how hurt can you actually be? Sure you may look like a badass, but why should I care about your sore leg when it clearly doesn't prevent you from going on offense or winning?

 

I find it more effective when someone has an injured limb and it actually prevents them from hitting something that requires the use of said limb, at least the first time or at a crucial time. I want it to matter in some way. That doesn't mean I want overselling or constant agony or whatever, but just a little consistency and logic. If working the leg is the story, then make it the story and make it relevant to what happens in the match.

 

I'm going wildly off topic now but Christian, for example, is great at being worked over, and then fighting back but continuing to sell damage for the rest of the match. At Summerslam he had his arm worked over, but when he made his comeback he was a guy making a comeback with an injured arm, and you could clearly see that. Then even as he gets his final adrenaline burst and hits the spear, he hits it with his injured arm which allows Alberto to submit him. That is the payoff, and that has a consistency to it.

 

To bring it back to Cena, he's a guy who can also get shit on for no selling or blowing shit off or whatever, but you can almost always see the narrative play out in Cena's selling. He doesn't do a lot of body part work, but when he's facing a monster or something often he gets his ribs or back worked over. This is a vehicle for him to sell, then attempt some big power move that requires his ribs and/or back, he will fail and topple over, get worked over some more, then finally make his real comeback and HIT the big move to win the match in a moment of triumph. Superhero overcomes the odds 101. It works.