Cena v. Tanahashi

[WingedEagle]

Check out Okada in the recent G1 match where he sells the leg to the point that he doesn't even make it across the ring after being whipped into the ropes. Sure, maybe he'll pull something out like a dropkick or other offense for the transition, but he's got to take back control at some point. I haven't noticed him ignoring bodypart work, and if anything, like NintendoLogic pointed out, he'll sometimes go overboard to get such work across.

 

Goodhelmet, I'll try to check in later or tomorrow with some more thoughts on Tanahashi -- work & holidays for the next couple days will likely tie me up more than I'd like and almost certainly prevent me from rewatching some matches I'd like to. A few points for now:

 

*Tremendous world title main event style match. I like a heavyweight who can sell a body part (the arm for Suzuki) bump his tail off (for Kojima, Okada & Ishii) in an effort to make any challenger look like a powerhouse, while also making anyone (Devitt, Karl Anderson) look like a credible opponent.

 

* Big Spots -- he has his like anyone else, but in no way prostitutes them and saves them for moments in a match where they'll either mean something or allow for a block/reversal to set up a run for his opponent.

 

* Offensive Diversity -- He'll bust out a variety of spots at different points in a match, employing aerial strikes, flying moves in & out of the ring, a couple suplexes he'll break out to great effect in setting up his closing stretch. I don't know what a properly executed dragon screw feels like, but he does a damn good job using it to the leg and arm and continuing to hone in on that body part with kicks and dropkicks (to the leg) or elbows and slams to the arm.

 

* Charisma -- Maybe I'm alone, but having watched him in this many title matches and how he sells and works the long match (and yeah, its partly booking, but only so many guys can be booked to have the time and liberties associated with the top spot), but I think his facials, athleticism and ability to work through a long match is spectacular. They've got spots but aren't spotty. They've sometimes got wrestling, sometimes have flying, but aren't stereotypical to those styles. He's able to mix in a variety of spots and styles around opponents mentioned above who have different strengths, all the while building them up as as likely to take him down and keeping things interesting around selling, near falls and a smooth, exciting, usually hot finish with a ton of big moves and near falls. I like hot finishing stretches with false finishes. Those are good things.

 

His strikes? Nothing special. I don't cringe when I see them for good or bad. They just don't stand out. If they were open hand strikes that missed by 6 inches and were repeatedly thrown, it just doesn't bother me. I love a great puncher and appreciate it when there's something excellent on that level going on. If its not that, its part of the match and not something that will likely add to or take away from my ability to enjoy the match.

[S.L.L.]

I'm a little hesitant to post this, because we have Tanahashi defenders actually defending Tanahashi right now, and I don't want to distract too much from that. One of the defining features - maybe the defining feature - of Tanahashi fandom to me is that he's the critical darling who nobody likes. My previous attempts to pin down what Tanahashi fans specifically like about the guy have been like pulling teeth, to the point that I was more likely to see his fans talk about specific negatives of his than positives. So seeing his fans actually talk about specific positives is really cool, and I don't want to take away from that part of the discussion.

 

Having said that, I do want to ask, on the Tanahashi vs. Cena front...how much of the difference is marketing? For all their similarities, the way the two are presented to fans - both by online tastemakers and by the promotions themselves - are radically different. I don't think it tells the whole story. People still have to actually enjoy the things they like. But I wonder how much of an effect it has on fan perception of them.

[KrisZ]

I've always dug both guys who have fanbases that are highly extreme on opposite sides but I've got an analogy here to why the feelings are what they are.

 

If you remember Tanahashi made his rise during the era where Inoki & MMA were trying to dominate New Japan so Tanahashi became some sort of Puroresu savior to the NJPW fanboys eyes since he wasn't Shinsuke Nakamura or Katsuyori Shibata.

 

Meanwhile John Cena made his rise during the post-Attitude era where he became some sort of antichrist to the Attitude era fanboys since he wasn't Austin or The Rock.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Boswell did a great job managing Charlie's Angels.

[Slasher]

This is a very facile side note, but what surprises me most here is that Boswell is not only on Nintendologic's radar, but also in his lingo. Is that phrase really in everyday parlance?

Not quite "every day parlance", but it's not as uncommon as you'd believe, in either context (as a positive to describe a relationship with a companion or a negative to... well basically the same thing).

[Ricky Jackson]

Matt fucking D!

[Jimmy Redman]

Check out Okada in the recent G1 match where he sells the leg to the point that he doesn't even make it across the ring after being whipped into the ropes. Sure, maybe he'll pull something out like a dropkick or other offense for the transition, but he's got to take back control at some point. I haven't noticed him ignoring bodypart work, and if anything, like NintendoLogic pointed out, he'll sometimes go overboard to get such work across.

I don't want to derail this with Okada talk any more than I already have, but I will admit that he sold the leg pretty well in the G1 draw and I have no problem with his performance in that match.

[goodhelmet]

Feel free to make an Okada thread.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

But why do you enjoy him? What is Dylan or Childs missing that makes him a good wrestler? What are his positives? Is it as simple as him being a charismatic guy? Is it because he employs a go-go never stop style? Does he draw you into the matches because of certain things he does?

He's an overall strong wrestler who connects with a lot of the viewers watching. I buy into him and I believe he belongs as one of the top NJPW guys. I also think he could be a WWE champ as well. So I enjoy him overall. Some good points have been brought up by others.

[Timbo Slice]

Basically all good wrestlers connect with the fans. Hell, there are plenty of bad wrestlers who connect with the fans. I don't see that as a positive. If that falls into the charisma category, then so be it, but guys like Toru Yano connect well with the fans and he's a bad wrestler.

 

Is it offense? Is it selling? Is it technique? Is it his ability to pace out a match?

 

I mean, the way I see Tanahashi, is that he has overtly flashy offense to the point where it's style over substance, he mostly sells only when convenient, he tends to let that flashy offense take away from the technique of doing simpler moves and paces out a match a lot like some other supposed "ring generals" who should let the other guy pace a match.

 

Kurt Angle paced the majority of his matches horribly unless a guy like Taker or Eddy or Austin brought him down a notch or 20. Tanahashi's similar in that his best matches have been because he's let the other guy take the lead and Tanahashi fills in the blanks for the most part. People who go crazy over the Minoru Suzuki match from last year and credit Tanahashi for the work must have missed the other big matches Tanahashi had where the other guy was the better part of the match. The only match I can think of where Tanahashi really made things his and the match was great was the Goto match from '07, but that was also Goto's best match ever, so your mileage will vary there. And before anyone brings up Okada again, Okada has been the best part of all five matches they've had, and as good as Okada has been, he's not a top-flight wrestler quite yet. He's pushed as one, obviously, but he still has his own faults to work on. If someone makes the Okada thread, be my guest and we'll go through them.

 

Now, Cena haters would be quick to point out that Cena's had plenty of big matches where he was "carried." The big difference between Tanahashi and him is that when it comes to his opponent, Cena is much more adept to balancing things out to match up who he's working with. He'll brawl with Umaga, he'll build an epic with Punk, Shawn or Rocky and he'll get technical with Bryan. In fact, compare the Suzuki match with the Bryan match and you'll see that Cena actually tries to work things into the match that give it a different feel from your normal Bryan match, and makes Bryan's big moments that much more important. Cena understands how to work a big match better than anyone in the world right now. Tanahashi just happens to work a lot of big matches.

 

I think we're really missing something key in all these points people are or aren't making: Tanahashi is easily accessible to people who want to watch puroresu. He's easy to get into and because he's got so much on tape, people can seek out his big matches and enjoy him because he wrestles a different style than basically every WWE guy they see on TV each week. The people arguing against him have roots in older Japan stuff or are fans of different styles completely and since Tanahashi's style hasn't really changed for a while, people have soured on him over time or prefer some of his contemporaries to him instead (Shibata and Nakamura, for example).

[Jimmy Redman]

I'd love for someone to come up with a reasonable argument for "Cena has been carried in a lot of his best matches." Its a talking point I've never seen argued by someone intelligently (not a knock at you TL) and yet it is this sort of accepted wisdom about Cena. It's sort of the kneejerk, first line of defense from those who don't like him.

 

"Cena has this good thing here."

"Yeah, but...he was carried!"

 

It's like a cheat way of admitting that Cena has been in tonnes of great matches, without having to give him any credit for them whatsoever.

[goodhelmet]

He has been in way too many good matches to not be considered a great wrestler. After the Mid South, All Japan and Texas sets were completed, I said the same thing about Kerry Von Erich. I actually said Kerry was great as early as the Smarkschoice poll. The 80s sets just solidified it.

[jdw]

Weren't there threads like this six years ago on Takeshi Morishima?

[goodhelmet]

Most of the people posting here today weren't posting here 6 years ago.

[jdw]

Looking at the thread, it looks like 13-10 "yes", counting MJH who has been around puroresu discussions online foever. Some of the 10 might have been in puroresu discussions for 6+ years elsewhere as well, but I'm not as familar with them. Was surpised 23 folks posted so far in the thread given it's lengthand Dylan & Jastrau dominated a good chunk of it early.

 

Anyway, the comment about Morishima (which I think a lot of people would get) was that he was the last version of "This Is One Of The Greatest Heavyweights I've Seen Since The Last Greatest Heavyweight!" that a chunk of people were losing their shit for while another chunk of people were in their, "he's solid enough... but why are people losing their shit" camp. Tanahashi is latest, with guys like Kurt Angle being earlier versions.

 

The comment wasn't to foreclose discussion. It was joke aimed at the Tanahashi/Morishima/Etc workers who pop up from time to time.

 

John

[KrisZ]

Not to steer this one from Cena/Tanahashi but John brought up Morishima......the deal with that one was that NOAH's best young workers were all Jrs other than Morishima & Rikio. Rikio went down so Morishima was basically the "Heavyweight's Last Hope" in the promotion and was considered that by NOAH fans.

 

I remember having conversations with NOAH fans in 2005-06 where they were worried about the future of the promotion then because all the big anchors were getting old and there were no heavyweights following in their footsteps other than Morishima & Rikio. There was legit worry that NOAH was going to become a Rich Man's Dragon Gate years later and it didn't quite happen that way but NOAH has had their issues.

 

Tanahashi was a lot like Morishima to the New Japan fans as he was "Pro Wrestling's Last Hope" against the power of Inoki-ISM.

[jdw]

I think it was more than just the NJPW/NOAH fanboy-types driving the pimping of Morishima and Tanahashi. I mean... I don't think they'd get this out of Loss because he really doesn't read those folks:

 

"Morishima is fine. He's just no Terry Gordy."

-Loss

 

Earlier:

 

"Did you guys notice that Dave called Morishima a better worker than Gordy in the latest Observer? I know he's expressed love for him previously but good lord."

-Childs

 

 

John

[jdw]

Anyway...

 

Don't mean to hijack this. Just that Tanahashi-Luv has a vibe of Morishima-Luv, though Tanahashi's has more Charisma & Ace-dom to it.

[MJH]

I recall the 'Morishima-Luv' included a lot of raving about his athleticism for his size. It's not the kind of thing that'd get over here, but with a lot of the 'pro-Angle' types I can see that earning him points. I do remember watching a match of his vs. KENTA (which may not have been raved about, per se, but I can't see it having been shit on either) where they worked it as if there was no real size difference between the two. It was a strong "go go go" sorta match in the vein of KENTA/Marufuji etc, but it struck me (and I'd imagine would strike most on here) as pretty fucking silly. Whilst Vader was a little too bump-happy for me, at least at times, obviously had the moonsault etc, it wasn't as though he was running around with Scorpio looking when to get the next missile dropkick in.

[NintendoLogic]

So I decided to watch Tanahashi/Suzuki from KOPW and Okada/Tanahashi from Invasion Attack in succession. I can see how someone can think the first match is great. I can also see how someone can think the second match is terrible. But for the life of me, I have no idea how someone can think both.