WON HOF 2013 discussion

[cm funk]

I have a hard time with Edge as a candidate. He's the poster child for modern WWE reallly.....and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. He held a lot of titles over the years, that's for sure. He was one of the top guys for a stretch when WWE was doing some decent business.....but they generally do decent business regardless of who is in what spot. I absolutely think he was a draw.....the guy was really popular, sold lots of merch, and was consistently super over with live crowds from the start of the Rated R stuff up til the end. He was a good performer too, not up there with the most high end workers, but he was capable of having really good matches, especially working the WWE style with gimmicks and whatnot. Also, he and Christian were a great act, which almost gets overlooked because he had such a strong run as a single. I also thought he had a lot of fun stuff working tags with other guys. Rated RKO was great, his stretches teaming with Jericho were great, even the stuff with Hogan was fun.

 

The more I think about his career the more I think he belongs in. If he'd had a few more years working top of the card in WWE he'd almost be a slam dunk. As it is, I wouldn't vote for him this year because I think there's more deserving candidates on the ballot.....but give it a few years and I think a stronger case will be made. In the last decade or so....how many stronger candidates are there? That list of HOF worthy wrestlers is going to be thinning out the longer we get into this modern era. TNA candidates have no shot. AJ Styles is their ace and has been for pretty much the entire run of the company.....he doesn't have a prayer at getting in. Sting, who I've defended as a candidate to the point of exhaustion, will probably never be in. So who goes in from the modern era? Punk, Bryan, probably Lesnar......Kane? Will Orton get any support when he hits the ballot? When I look at it from that perspective Edge becomes a strong candidate

[cm funk]

What about Big Show? I'd be ok with Show going in....but that would be an interesting debate

[mookeighana]

What about Big Show? I'd be ok with Show going in....but that would be an interesting debate

Yeah, as I did my regressions, I noticed that he came up as a significant draw at least once for both WWE (2009-2013) and WCW (1998). I was wondering if Big Show had ever been voted on for WON HOF? I actually googled that earlier today but didn't find anything.

 

Randy Orton is a couple years away, but when he's eligible, I wonder how his reception will be. I feel like if Edge makes it, Orton should too.

[Hollinger.]

Chris - it would probably mean a lot of extra work depending on how you ran those, but dynamic five year periods rather than the static set periods may prove valuable. You're going to have a number of guys whose runs don't fit neatly into the already defined five year sets.

[mookeighana]

Chris - it would probably mean a lot of extra work depending on how you ran those, but dynamic five year periods rather than the static set periods may prove valuable. You're going to have a number of guys whose runs don't fit neatly into the already defined five year sets.

Yes, that's an exceptionally fair point. And I am not certainly the methodology behind the drawing calculation is even meaningful. It was more of an interesting thought exercise and I wanted to see if it suggested some people that I hadn't considered as very strong draws. I'm still refining it and will probably move to a more year-by-year approach (akin to what I did with WCW) instead.

[Dylan Waco]

I have a hard time with Edge as a candidate. He's the poster child for modern WWE reallly.....and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. He held a lot of titles over the years, that's for sure. He was one of the top guys for a stretch when WWE was doing some decent business.....but they generally do decent business regardless of who is in what spot. I absolutely think he was a draw.....the guy was really popular, sold lots of merch, and was consistently super over with live crowds from the start of the Rated R stuff up til the end. He was a good performer too, not up there with the most high end workers, but he was capable of having really good matches, especially working the WWE style with gimmicks and whatnot. Also, he and Christian were a great act, which almost gets overlooked because he had such a strong run as a single. I also thought he had a lot of fun stuff working tags with other guys. Rated RKO was great, his stretches teaming with Jericho were great, even the stuff with Hogan was fun.

 

The more I think about his career the more I think he belongs in. If he'd had a few more years working top of the card in WWE he'd almost be a slam dunk. As it is, I wouldn't vote for him this year because I think there's more deserving candidates on the ballot.....but give it a few years and I think a stronger case will be made. In the last decade or so....how many stronger candidates are there? That list of HOF worthy wrestlers is going to be thinning out the longer we get into this modern era. TNA candidates have no shot. AJ Styles is their ace and has been for pretty much the entire run of the company.....he doesn't have a prayer at getting in. Sting, who I've defended as a candidate to the point of exhaustion, will probably never be in. So who goes in from the modern era? Punk, Bryan, probably Lesnar......Kane? Will Orton get any support when he hits the ballot? When I look at it from that perspective Edge becomes a strong candidate

I reject the argument that the dearth of modern candidates means we need to make room for people who wouldn't have made it had they been in any other era if that is what you are suggesting at the end, but I'm not sure that's what you are suggesting at the end, especially since you laid out a cliff notes case right before that.

 

I have and will continue to listen to a case for Edge. I'm not a fan of a lot of the guys work, but I do think he was hot for at least a year or two as a heel and he was a staple of the semi-main/main universe in WWE for several years. He was even involved in some matches and feuds that I really liked a lot. But I would need more particulars to see him as viable.

 

Here are some things that I think hurt Edge and/or questions I have about him:

 

He sure seemed like he was hurt a lot so his longevity is not as solid as it might otherwise seem.

 

If you compare him to someone like Lex Luger who isn't in what's the argument for him outside of work (I think Luger was a better worker myself)? Was he really hotter as his peak then Luger was at his? Does he really have longevity over Lex? Was he involved in as many memorable angles/storylines?

 

Edge's hottest periods were when he was with Lita, Vickie and Orton. I don't remember Edge ever really being super hot on his own. That's not a disqualifer at all, but it bothers me some that I can't pinpoint a period where I thought he was really hot as a truly solo act.

 

I think Edge's main even face run was really bad...but that's preference I admit.

 

Mania is the WWE's biggest show of the year and I think it is pretty damning that this guy being touted as an HoFer has the Mania record he does:

 

WM 2000

- Ladder Match for Tag Team Titles: Edge & Christian beat champs The Dudley Boyz and The Hardy Boyz to become Tag Team Champions - well pushed mid-card feud that was very over at the time. Clearly not the big match on the show as a draw, but you could argue it for the two spot maybe - but then you look who is in the main event and I'm not sure how much "credit" you can really give it as a drawing card.

 

WM 2001

- TLC match for Tag Team Title: Edge & Christian beat champs The Dudley Boyz & The Hardy Boyz to win the title - Still a hot, well liked match for sure, third from the top, but beneath all the clear big dogs at the time (Taker, HHH, Rock, Austin)

 

WM 2002

Edge beat Booker T - This was right around the beginning of his singles push. It's in his home area, but is really a non-factor on the show, certainly not anything that has HoF value to it.

 

He misses 2003 and 2004

 

WM 2005

Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Edge beat Chris Benoit, Kane, Shelton Benjamin, Chris Jericho & Christian to get a title shot whenever he wants - The beginning of his true main event push in many ways and a good debut for the gimmick. But when you look at the match it's at best the fifth most pushed match on the show and Edge was merely one of several guys in it.

 

WM 2006

Hardcore Match: Edge beat Mick Foley - In many ways the match where he started to get a lot of talk as a "big match" worker. But it was the third most pushed match on the show, well below the main event and below Rey's chase for the title as well.

 

WM 2007

Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Ken Kennedy beat Edge, C.M. Punk, King Booker, Jeff Hardy, Finlay, Matt Hardy, and Randy Orton - Back in MITB with guys who don't have main event feuds but are considered stars. He would eventually take this from Kennedy in an angle, but he lost here and was in no way a major part of the show, let alone in a main or semi-main position.

 

WM 2008

World Heavyweight Championship: The Undertaker beat Edge to win the title - His biggest Mania match and it even went on last. But here is the thing - does anyone really believe that was the Main Event of the show? I'm willing to grant it for the sake of argument but Michaels/Flair, Show/Mayweather and the Triple Threat were all pushed AT LEAST as much on tv. This was a step up for Taker from the previous year in terms of how his match was presented, but not even in the universe of what would come after. It's not as extreme as calling Jericho/HHH then main over Rock/Hogan, but it seems a stretch to say it was clearly the biggest match on the show.

 

WM 2009

World Heavyweight Championship: John Cena beat Champion Edge and The Big Show to win the title - Second from the top behind HHH v. Orton, which got the go home RAW push. Michaels v. Taker is there to. This is a good spot for Edge, but not something that is overwhelming.

 

WM 2010

World Heavyweight Championship: Champion Chris Jericho beat Edge - Pretty weak title match. In terms of build the promotion was greater for at least three matches, arguably four if you count Rey v. Punk. In any case not a good showing for an HoF.

 

WM 2011

- World Heavyweight Championship: Champion Edge beat Alberto Del Rio - Opener and his last match. I was there live and the big take home from this is that Del Rio should have won. Several matches on the show were clearly pushed harder.

 

I'll let others speak to that more, but that is not the sort of record I would expect out of an HoFer.

 

I lived through the whole Edge era and never saw him as a guy who was an HoF level guy. That's not an immediate "no" but with other guys from the modern era who I like as little or less then Edge (Tanahashi and Mistico being the most obvious examples) they feel like guys who were era or promotion defining on some level, they are guys where I can point to strong business swings, they are guys who stand out as people who I think could be representative of an era in an HoF. I don't see that in Edge.

 

The arguments for him I think are often pegged to make him look stronger then he is. To an extent we all do this, but the Edge candidacy reminds me a lot of the Michaels candidacy in that it's a lot more speculation and/or assumptions then I would like (again we all do this to an extent, but it seems like it gets tossed out a ton with Edge). For example, in the last week I've seen people say he deserves a ton of credit for getting over the ladder match, that Edge/Christian were one of the most influential tag teams in wrestling history, that was in a Mania "main event" a half dozen times, and that SD became a Raw deleted scenes show after he left and collapsed into the sewer. Those range from totally false (Mania claim) to exceptionally generous (ladder match claim) to extremely speculative (E/C claim) to contextually challenged (SD claim...not Taker and Rey not being around was a big facet in the brand losing a lot of it's identity too). I'm not saying those arguments can't be advanced or pointed to as part of the puzzle but I'd rather they be fleshed out then just asserted and I also don't think they can form the foundation of an HoF argument.

[Dylan Waco]

Show has never been on the ballot and I suspect would be a hard sell because while Dave gives him a lot of credit for certain things, he's not a Dave favorite

[JerryvonKramer]

Matt D - you are selling Ivan's Paul Jones's army stuff very short there.

 

I jest, I jest.

 

HOWEVER, JCP is one place where you can point to tag-teams main eventing and drawing. Russians vs. Road Warriors would have done business and drawn some gates. Russians vs. R n Rs and Russians vs. America's Team also. I wouldn't just dismiss the run out of hand.

 

While I think the bulk of Ivan's case rests on 69-81, without looking it up, I can almost guarantee you'll find some reasonably impressive Greensboro or Omni shows with those matches on top.

 

Am I wrong?

[Dylan Waco]

Matt D - you are selling Ivan's Paul Jones's army stuff very short there.

 

I jest, I jest.

 

HOWEVER, JCP is one place where you can point to tag-teams main eventing and drawing. Russians vs. Road Warriors would have done business and drawn some gates. Russians vs. R n Rs and Russians vs. America's Team also. I wouldn't just dismiss the run out of hand.

 

While I think the bulk of Ivan's case rests on 69-81, without looking it up, I can almost guarantee you'll find some reasonably impressive Greensboro or Omni shows with those matches on top.

 

Am I wrong?

I don't know if you are or not, but I know it would be fairly easy for you to find out

[JerryvonKramer]

Maybe tomorrow.

 

Without looking, my prediction is that when Flair wasn't on the card, those matches headlined.

[cm funk]

I reject the argument that the dearth of modern candidates means we need to make room for people who wouldn't have made it had they been in any other era if that is what you are suggesting at the end, but I'm not sure that's what you are suggesting at the end, especially since you laid out a cliff notes case right before that.

That's not exactly what I was saying, but it sort of is. My point was that you have to adjust the goalposts sometimes, which is why all these modern candidates are tough for me to grade. The more I think about someone like Edge, or Big Show.....I think, "well, if these guys aren't in who goes in?"

 

It's partly an issue I just have with the WON HOF in general where I think people get put on the ballot too soon, and there's been a lot of questionable people voted in. I know wrestling is different from other sports and guys generally don't retire and leave the business completely, but I hate that active wrestlers who are very much in their prime years get voted in. Too early for Cena. Too early for HHH. Way too early for Angle. Etc. etc. I think that also sets a precedent about what HOF standards are, and if this is the HOF that includes those guys.......why shouldn't it include Edge? Why not Sting? You mentioned Luger......I'd put him in too.

 

As far as Michaels goes.....I know he's a polarizing candidate......personally I thought he was one of the best workers of his generation and a first ballot HOFer all the way. I thought he was an amazing performer in the 90's, all around, total package. Internet opinion when it comes to him is fascinating.....in the early internet days he was regarded as one of the best in the world......then post-comeback people were really down on him for a while (I was too for a stretch....but not to the extreme of some DVDVR posters) then there was a 180 on him I think starting in 08 and it seemed like people really dug his work again. I could buy that he went in earlier than he should have, but it would be impossible to convince me that he doesn't belong.

[Dylan Waco]

Michaels belongs in now, but really didn't when he got in in my view. There are a lot of guys who are currently active who are guys that have real HoF potential, but I can't justify supporting them now.

[JerryvonKramer]

Doing a bio on Swede Hanson earlier for Titans, it seems to me that Rip Hawk is a pretty strong candidate on the ballot.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd listen to an argument for Hawk. I know he was considered a big deal in the early days of Wrestling At The Chase and was huge teaming with Swede in the Carolinas, but I need to see what else there is.

[JerryvonKramer]

That's more or less it Dylan. His case, I'd say largely rests on how big that team was for Mid-Atlantic and how influential they were on other teams of the time.

[Dylan Waco]

Dave and I had Bix on for part 2 of the HoF discussions we've been having on the Wrestling Culture podcast. it is linked here http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...=0#entry5564668

[kjh]

For example, in the last week I've seen people say he deserves a ton of credit for getting over the ladder match, that Edge/Christian were one of the most influential tag teams in wrestling history, that was in a Mania "main event" a half dozen times, and that SD became a Raw deleted scenes show after he left and collapsed into the sewer. Those range from totally false (Mania claim) to exceptionally generous (ladder match claim) to extremely speculative (E/C claim) to contextually challenged (SD claim...not Taker and Rey not being around was a big facet in the brand losing a lot of it's identity too).

I think Jeff Hardy deserves the most credit for taking the ladder match to the next level in the Attitude Era, though obviously it was a team effort. He was clearly the star of the six. Though he washed out of the ballot, Hardy is an interesting comparison to Edge. Edge was more consistent, but Hardy was a much bigger star at his peak. The Royal Rumble 2008 number for Hardy vs. Orton is more impressive than anything Edge did as a headliner too and I'm sure Jeff sold more merchandise than Edge did. It's just that Jeff's valleys are really low, though even when strung out and slumming it in TNA, he always came off as being a bigger act than his environment allowed him to be.

[KrisZ]

Just finalized my ballot and sent it to Dave

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Ivan Koloff

Dick Murdoch

Ken Patera

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Mr. Wrestling II

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Blue Panther

Cien Caras

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES

Carlos Colon

 

NON-WRESTLERS

Bill Apter

Gary Hart

Jimmy Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Stanley Weston

[rovert]

Dave threw out 200 as the number of voters again a few days ago on Twitter

[JerryvonKramer]

Real quick on the Ivan JCP stuff:

 

84

- early in the year he was Mid-Atlantic Champion and feuded with Angelo Mosca mostly in semi-mains culminating in a Russian Chain match and finally dropping it in April.

- transitions to tagging with Don Kernodle and feuds with Wahoo and Mark Youngblood sometimes in semi-mains, sometimes in mains

- won a tournament in Toronto for the "Canadian Heavyweight Title". Defeated Brian Adidas in the final.

- wins tag titles with Kernodle in May vs. Wahoo and Youngblood

- headlines plenty of shows defending tag titles against Dusty and Wahoo

 

Typically if Flair is on the card, the match is bumped to semi-main. Par example:

 

JCP @ Roanoke, VA - Civic Center - June 2, 1984

Mark Fleming defeated Bobby Bass

Keith Larson defeated Gary Quarternelli

Barry Hart defeated Paul Kelly

Mark Youngblood defeated Kurt Von Hess

Pez Whatley defeated Jeff Sword

Angelo Mosca Jr. fought the Outlaw to a draw

National Tag Team Champions the Road Warriors fought NWA Tag Team Champions Ivan Koloff & Don Kernodle to a no contest

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated Dick Slater

 

JCP @ Norfolk, VA - June 7, 1984

Paul Kelly defeated Keith Larson

Johnny Weaver defeated Bob Bass

Pez Whatley defeated Kurt Von Hess

Kamala defeated Barry Hart

Stan Hansen defeated Jesse Barr

Rufus R. Jones defeated the Assassin

Harley Race defeated Angelo Mosca Jr.

The Road Warriors fought the Junkyard Dog & King Kong Bundy to a no contest

Wahoo McDaniel defeated NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard

The Freebirds defeated Ivan Koloff & Don Kernodle via disqualification

NWA US Champion Ricky Steamboat fought NWA World Champion Ric Flair to a draw

 

However, if Flair isn't on the card, they'll main event. Even against the likes of Mark Youngblood and The Renegade. Many examples, mostly on your typical JCP loop. Match is above Tully as TV champ.

 

JCP @ Norfolk, VA - July 19, 1984

Nikita Koloff defeated Vinnie Valentino

Tom Shaft defeated Ali Bey

Barry Hart & Sam Houston defeated Bobby Bass & Jeff Sword

Angelo Mosca Jr. defeated the Outlaw

Buzz Sawyer defeated Jimmy Valiant

NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard defeated Brian Adidas

NWA Tag Team Champions Ivan Koloff & Don Kernodle defeated the Renegade & Mark Youngblood

 

However, there are exceptions to this, such as when Tully is working Dusty or Steamboat.

 

On cards where they work singles, Ivan is above Kernodle, like so:

 

JCP @ Greenwood, SC - Memorial Auditorium - October 1, 1984

Denny Brown defeated Jeff Sword

The Zambuie Express defeated Sam Houston & Joel Deaton

Manny Fernandez defeated Don Kernodle

Assassin #1 defeated the Ultimate Assassin

Barry Windham defeated Nikita Koloff via disqualification

Dusty Rhodes defeated Ivan Koloff

 

JCP @ Keanansville - October 11, 1984

Sam Houston defeated Jeff Sword

Nikita Koloff defeated Mike Fever

The Zambouie Express defeated Mike Davis & Keith Larson

Brian Adidas defeated Don Kernodle via disqualification

Manny Fernandez defeated Ivan Koloff

 

JCP @ Hampton, VA - October 12, 1984

Joel Deaton defeated Paul Kelly

The Zambouie Express defeated Sam Houston & Denny Brown

The Assassin defeated Jimmy Valiant

Ron Bass & Black Bart defeated Manny Fernandez & Mike Rotundo

Don Kernodle defeated Brian Adidas

NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard fought Manny Fernandez to a draw

Dusty Rhodes defeated Ivan Koloff

 

- By the end of the year Nikita has replaced Kernodle as Ivan's partner. Still in the main event.

 

JCP @ Charlotte, NC - December 9, 1984

Denny Brown defeated Sam Houston

Kareem Muhammad defeated Brian Adidas

The Assassin defeated Elijah Akeem in a taped fist match

Ricky Steamboat & Dick Slater defeated Black Bart & Ron Bass via disqualification

NWA US Champion Wahoo McDaniel defeated Buzz Tyler

NWA World Champion Ric Flair defeated NWA TV Champion Tully Blanchard

NWA Tag Team Champions Dusty Rhodes & Manny Fernandez defeated Ivan & Nikita Koloff in a steel cage match

 

-----------

 

Before moving onto 1985, can we really write 1984 off for Ivan? He worked on top more than you'd expect that year for MACW. I need to know that there's any point in moving on before I do.

[shoe]

Just finalized my ballot and sent it to Dave

 

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

Ivan Koloff

Dick Murdoch

Ken Patera

Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson)

Mr. Wrestling II

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Blue Panther

Cien Caras

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Sr.

 

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC/PUERTO RICO CANDIDATES

Carlos Colon

 

NON-WRESTLERS

Bill Apter

Gary Hart

Jimmy Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Stanley Weston

 

That looks like a pretty strong ballot. I was wondering about your thoughts on Atlantis. Mexico seems like a pretty busy section.

[KrisZ]

I think next year will be the year I vote for Atlantis because by then he would have had his mask match with UG. Mexico is extremely tough and I had to drop Huracan Ramirez which I didn't want to do.

[Dylan Waco]

I sent in an email to Karl Stern (it was one of many apparently) and he ended up putting Patera on his ballot which was a nice surprise.

[soup23]

I would be surprised at this point if Patera doesnt get the 10% of voter support to stay on the ballot. Your research should really be commended Dylan on people turning the corner on him.

[JNLister]

That's not exactly what I was saying, but it sort of is. My point was that you have to adjust the goalposts sometimes, which is why all these modern candidates are tough for me to grade. The more I think about someone like Edge, or Big Show.....I think, "well, if these guys aren't in who goes in?"

 

It's partly an issue I just have with the WON HOF in general where I think people get put on the ballot too soon, and there's been a lot of questionable people voted in. I know wrestling is different from other sports and guys generally don't retire and leave the business completely, but I hate that active wrestlers who are very much in their prime years get voted in. Too early for Cena. Too early for HHH. Way too early for Angle. Etc. etc. I think that also sets a precedent about what HOF standards are, and if this is the HOF that includes those guys.......why shouldn't it include Edge? Why not Sting? You mentioned Luger......I'd put him in too.

 

My threshold for whether you should be considering somebody who objectively meets the 15 years/35 or older criteria is whether there's a genuine prospect that they'll continue to improve their case as their career goes on. With Tanahashi I think there's debate about whether he belong in now, but it's certainly possible he can solidify his candidacy in the next few years. With Cena going in last year, for the few people who don't think he belongs in now, I can't see what else he's going to do that will change their minds.