WON HOF 2013 discussion

[cm funk]

I'm not 100% sold on Murdoch, but I've got no problem with him going in. I've always liked what I've seen from him as a performer and his style, and I probably haven't seen his best stuff. But it always feels like there's something missing with him when it comes to HOF credentials.

 

After being on the ballot for so long and talked up/debated so much, I'd be surprised if this is the year he goes in. Stranger things have happened with this HOF though

[mookeighana]

I would be fairly shocked if Murdoch made it in this year, though being in the category he is in is a help.

 

What did Dave say that tipped the hand on Tanahashi? I think his getting in at this point is not good, but given his reputation as a worker in WON circles it's a waste arguing over it.

There was Dave's quote on Tanahashi was from this weekend's Sin Limite show at the 7 minute mark

"I will say this, to me, two people on the ballot that were no-brainers were Matsunaga and Tanahashi. Everyone else was debatable. I know some people think Tanahashi is debatable. But I can't find the debate. Workwise - He's one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen - consistency; big match; great world champion! That gets you in. Best guy in the business for the last two 1/2 years. And he was good before that. Even if there was no drawing power. And there is drawing power and he's the star during the resurgence of the company; he is the biggest internet ppv draw all of all time. And I don't know what that means. But they're doing internet PPVs numbers very close to what WWE is doing for most of their rank & file PPVs on television where United States is three times bigger than Japan. And that's an impressive number. And he's the big draw. And I find him a no-brainer."

[Timbo Slice]

That's interesting to hear about the iPPV numbers. That being said, PPV numbers are still PPV numbers. Just a different stream to sell them.

 

That does bring up a question to the folks here who live in Japan: Do people but PPVs on TV at all? Or have they adopted the internet as the main PPV outlet?

[Jimmy Redman]

I know some people think Tanahashi is debatable. But I can't find the debate. Workwise - He's one of the best wrestlers I've ever seen - consistency; big match; great world champion!

It's hidden deep down there somewhere Dave...

[jdw]

37 years old later this month, and just passed his 14th anniversary of his debut. It really wasn't that hard several years back to have changed it to 40/20 without massively impacting people on the ballot, just those who were about to hit it. Even 40/20 is two freaking low anyway... 45/20 should be the lows.

 

Oh well.

[mookeighana]

That's interesting to hear about the iPPV numbers. That being said, PPV numbers are still PPV numbers. Just a different stream to sell them.

 

That does bring up a question to the folks here who live in Japan: Do people but PPVs on TV at all? Or have they adopted the internet as the main PPV outlet?

Also, what's a NJPW iPPV cost in Japan? Is it (the equilivant of) $45-$55?

[W2BTD]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny. Toss in being the top star during a big turnaround and the iPPV stuff, and it becomes an uncontested layup. Can't fathom a no vote argument that would sway me even .01%.

 

Okada is on a path to be even better. In fact, I think Okada is slightly better already. He does some things at a higher level than Tanahshi, and he's only 25 years old. He may not peak for a decade.

[evilclown]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny.

Are you serious here? He would have been like the 12th best guy in 1990's AJPW.

[Matt D]

If Buddy Rose doesn't get in on work....

[W2BTD]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny.

Are you serious here? He would have been like the 12th best guy in 1990's AJPW.

 

Many of whom are in, and obviously I don't agree with that ranking anyway.

 

I think this recent two year stretch solidifies him as a Top 5 big match wrestler of all time. He always delivers, and has produced the best match of several people's career in the process, which is always a key measure for me and something that only Daniel Bryan can say as a contemporary (Yujiro, Karl Anderson, Okada, Suzuki, to name a few).

[W2BTD]

I'd be shocked if Colon didn't get in this year.

He is miscategorized, which hurts him. I would vote for him if he were on the US/Canada ballot. I abstain from that mish mash "Miscellaneous" category.

[Bix]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny.

Are you serious here? He would have been like the 12th best guy in 1990's AJPW.

 

Many of whom are in, and obviously I don't agree with that ranking anyway.

 

I think this recent two year stretch solidifies him as a Top 5 big match wrestler of all time. He always delivers, and has produced the best match of several people's career in the process, which is always a key measure for me and something that only Daniel Bryan can say as a contemporary (Yujiro, Karl Anderson, Okada, Suzuki, to name a few).

 

He said 12th best. So is Satoru Asako or whoever that would be a hall of Famer?

[W2BTD]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny.

Are you serious here? He would have been like the 12th best guy in 1990's AJPW.

 

Many of whom are in, and obviously I don't agree with that ranking anyway.

 

I think this recent two year stretch solidifies him as a Top 5 big match wrestler of all time. He always delivers, and has produced the best match of several people's career in the process, which is always a key measure for me and something that only Daniel Bryan can say as a contemporary (Yujiro, Karl Anderson, Okada, Suzuki, to name a few).

 

He said 12th best. So is Satoru Asako or whoever that would be a hall of Famer?

 

I don't know, ask him. I don't agree with his assessment to begin with.

[jdw]

The Top 5 Big Match thing is kind of funny. I guess it depends on how low we go to define "big matches", and how long of a stretch we use (are we saying 8 years of Tanahashi "big matches" or just the last 2.5 years). But it's not like those AJPW guys were laying many dogs in their big matches, while churning out a lot of good ones. Hell, things like Hansen-Kawada and Hansen-Kobashi in 1993 are probably at a level below the "big match" standard being used for Tanahashi: they weren't even main events.

 

John

[W2BTD]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

[ohtani's jacket]

That's interesting to hear about the iPPV numbers. That being said, PPV numbers are still PPV numbers. Just a different stream to sell them.

 

That does bring up a question to the folks here who live in Japan: Do people but PPVs on TV at all? Or have they adopted the internet as the main PPV outlet?

Also, what's a NJPW iPPV cost in Japan? Is it (the equilivant of) $45-$55?

 

Hardly anyone has satellite or cable in Japan, whereas practically everyone has the internet.

 

These are the prices for watching a show on the internet -- https://www.njpw.co.jp/news/detail.php?nid=10500

And this is the price for watching the same show on PPV -- http://www.skyperfectv.co.jp/genre/sports/list07/s02.html

[KrisZ]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

[Bix]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

But they're not as muscular or hairless as Tanahashi.

[W2BTD]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

-Work alone isn't getting Tanahashi in,

 

-But it certainly could. I know this is going to open a gigantic can of worms, and I realize there is probably no good reason to do this because i'm clearly on the wrong side of the proverbial tracks, but sometimes on this site there is a severe lack of self awareness of the niche fetishism for people like Rose, Dundee, etc.

 

If you asked me if i'd rather watch my house burn down or watch a typical Dundee southern style punch fest, i'd think hard before settling in for the match. Memphis is about as appealing to me as GLOW or lightning tube death matches (hint: I don't like those things), so i'll chalk that up to style.

 

But Rose I like, he's fine as a small territory heel, actually very good in fact, but don't pretend as if Rose as some slam dunk awesome top ten worker is a universal opinion. It isn't.

 

Tanahashi is churning out non stop ****+ star stuff at a pace that hasn't been matched since Misawa/Kobashi. This run is legendary, and he wasn't chopped liver before it started. He's on a completely different level than somebody like Bill Dundee or Regal, and I love Regal. But Tanahashi's worst singles match this year rival's Regal's best stuff ever.

 

Anyway, this is all subjective. I feel like Dylan does when he wanders over to "my" side of the tracks. My post probably reads as a troll, but that's not the intent. I just don't think the work of people like Dundee or Rose is what your typical HOF voter looks at as HOF level great. Tanahashi's stuff is.

[Matt D]

At the end of the day it's Dave's HOF and it's Dave's tastes that help to fuel it. It's one reason why I don't think I'd ever break my back to try to move the needle.

[W2BTD]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

Also, this statement is false, because there are people who have gotten in on work alone, and on their first ballot. If these guys were deemed good enough in the ring by the voters, they would have also.

[kjh]

I don't think anyone should get in on two years of work unless it's revolutionary in nature a la Satoru Sayama.

 

I'm highly confident that Tanahashi will eventually get in and will eventually deserve to be in. But why the rush for coronation when there's plenty of deserving candidates who aren't still in the prime of their careers.

[rvd356]

Agree with Dave completely on Tanahashi. I voted for him without any thought. For me, he gets in on work alone if he never even drew a penny.

Are you serious here? He would have been like the 12th best guy in 1990's AJPW.

 

I agree with this sort of. Maybe not 12th but behind Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Akiyama, Taue, Hansen and Steve Williams...and maybe some others in their primes. But that's just my personal tastes.

 

I love, love that group and everything they produced. I did watch the October Okada/Tanahashi match last night and damn it was great, but the AJPW guys did it 1st and 'Best of Kobashi", "Best Of Kawada" etc, were my first tapes watching that style and it blew me away. I know the style is a bit different but those guys shook the Earth with their peak runs and it was for the better overall. Sure ROH may have went too far with it(Davey Richards) but when you look at Danielson & Punk, 2 of the top 5 stars in the world, and it's obvious the 90's All Japan style is a good portion of what makes those guys great in modern day WWE.

[goodhelmet]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

-Work alone isn't getting Tanahashi in,

 

-But it certainly could. I know this is going to open a gigantic can of worms, and I realize there is probably no good reason to do this because i'm clearly on the wrong side of the proverbial tracks, but sometimes on this site there is a severe lack of self awareness of the niche fetishism for people like Rose, Dundee, etc.

 

If you asked me if i'd rather watch my house burn down or watch a typical Dundee southern style punch fest, i'd think hard before settling in for the match. Memphis is about as appealing to me as GLOW or lightning tube death matches (hint: I don't like those things), so i'll chalk that up to style.

 

But Rose I like, he's fine as a small territory heel, actually very good in fact, but don't pretend as if Rose as some slam dunk awesome top ten worker is a universal opinion. It isn't.

 

Tanahashi is churning out non stop ****+ star stuff at a pace that hasn't been matched since Misawa/Kobashi. This run is legendary, and he wasn't chopped liver before it started. He's on a completely different level than somebody like Bill Dundee or Regal, and I love Regal. But Tanahashi's worst singles match this year rival's Regal's best stuff ever.

 

Anyway, this is all subjective. I feel like Dylan does when he wanders over to "my" side of the tracks. My post probably reads as a troll, but that's not the intent. I just don't think the work of people like Dundee or Rose is what your typical HOF voter looks at as HOF level great. Tanahashi's stuff is.

 

I agree. You are on the wrong side of the tracks.

[kjh]

If work alone got guys in the HOF then Buddy Rose, Bill Dundee, El Dandy, Regal, and many others would be first ballot

Also, this statement is false, because there are people who have gotten in on work alone, and on their first ballot. If these guys were deemed good enough in the ring by the voters, they would have also.

Really, very few people get in for work alone. Kobashi was either the number two or three draw in AJPW during their mid 90s heyday. Benoit, Eddie, Rey and Jericho were all unlikely to have gotten in without proving themselves as WWE main eventers first. Kurt Angle had it easier due to his Olympic gold medal, etc.