WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Dylan Waco]

To Jose's point if Sasaki (who I dont' really mind getting in at all, but could never quite 100 percent support as a candidate) and Tanahashi got in, I really can't see a single good argument against Akiyama or Taue at all.

[Bix]

Again, here are the wrestlers who were voted in that can be seen as going in solely on work:

 

[...]

 

There are additional arguments for some of them (and you have to take note of when they were inducted, as Kobashi didn't have the long Noah run as champion when he went in), but I think we can agree that everyone on this list was a workrate candidate, more or less.

Want to have that qualifier at the top before looking at these.

 

Aja Kong

Workrate didn't drive her in. In fact, it was a negative as Dave kept banging the "Another Dump but not as good" and "Aja wasn't as good as Bull" drum when talking about her.

 

What got her over the top was people articulating her impact on getting Joshi over to Men, and quite wisely using Dave's own words at the time to get that point across. Dave forgot it, but some of us didn't.

 

"Impact" and being the top woman in the 90s glory era of the promotion got her over the top. But it was a struggle to get there.

I don't remember Dave saying she was an inferior worker to Dump, I'm not sure how much of an argument there is for that...I mean I guess there is in that Dump was so good at the intangibles and got by almost completely on having ring psychology.

 

I know Kong's drawing record put her over the top but it's hard for me to see anyone from that era of AJW *not* as primarily being a workrate candidate based on the way AJW was pushed in the WON.

[pantherwagner]

Looking at the figures for Brits this year and seeing Pallo didn't get any bump as leading candidate once McManus got in and "freed up" a spot I suspect it may be many years before anyone gets in. With Daddy on 38% (a big rise), I get the impression that a fair proportion of the European voting group is split between "would never put Daddy in" and "will always vote for Daddy ahead of anyone else, often as the only UK pick". In turn that creates a logjam that Daddy won't get in, but eats up enough votes that it makes it very hard for anyone else to get on 60 percent of ballots.

 

There appear to be 120 people voting in the Europe category, which is staggeringly high.

 

It's also amazing how many people on the ballot (in all categories) got identical or near identical percentages to last year.

I was going to try and make a point like that but then I realised I hadn't looked up the percentages and I didn't want to look like an idiot making shit up.

 

Might be interesting to see if we get "would never put Daddy in" voters actually voting for him as a strategy to get their candidates in.

 

But this has convinced me to not to vote for Daddy again (at least for the next 11 months anyway ).

[KrisZ]

The more I think about it basically Tanahashi got into the HOF for 2-years of work really because if you go back to pre-2011 there wasn't a whole lot of love thrown Tanahashi or New Japan in general's direction. Sure we can go back 6-7 years for Tanahashi being a top guy but the way it looks and I'm just speculating that he got in just for 2-3 years of work is staggering.

 

Not saying it's fact but it really looks that way.

[W2BTD]

Also, on Tanahashi as a draw, I think it's unfair to say the Ippv stuff doesn't matter because hey it's a new technology and anyone could have done it. But I also think it is nuts to say "he's the biggest Ippv draw of all time" in 2013, because the medium is relatively new, we don't even have solid numbers on it and if we are being honest Okada heating up is much more closely connected (on paper anyhow) to the NJPW turnaround than Tanahashi himself who was flat for years.

I agree with all of this.

 

I've said it many times, and I will say it again now. When all is said and done, Okada is going to blow right past Tanahashi in every way. The burning question at that point will be, how much of that was due to the boost Tanahashi gave him in 2012 & 2013? Obviously I feel it was critical. He wasn't getting that kind of rub from anybody else in Japan. And working with Tanahashi, who say what you want about his work on a hyper critical level, is regarded as a master of pacing and timing in terms of when to peak in his matches, has really helped Okada's amazingly fast development as a worker. I think Okada has already surpassed Tanahashi between the ropes in several areas.

[JNLister]

Looking at the numbers, I wonder if anyone will get in next year. I don't see any of the new candidates making it, but there doesn't seem to be anyone coming close this year who's category is going to open up next year. The category most affected by this year's results might well be Japan (people voting only for Tanahashi this year who don't vote Japan next time), but nobody seems in a strong position to capitalize.

 

Karloff Lagarde is probably the best bet to get a push over 60% from the Lucha category opening up, though he's listed as having 29 votes, which doesn't add up -- either the 29 votes or the 52% must be a typo.

[W2BTD]

The more I think about it basically Tanahashi got into the HOF for 2-years of work really because if you go back to pre-2011 there wasn't a whole lot of love thrown Tanahashi or New Japan in general's direction. Sure we can go back 6-7 years for Tanahashi being a top guy but the way it looks and I'm just speculating that he got in just for 2-3 years of work is staggering.

 

Not saying it's fact but it really looks that way.

There is no question 2012 & 2013 put him over the top.

 

His work previous was highly touted, but since barely anybody was paying attention to New Japan before roughly the mid point of 2011, nobody outside a small niche (that word again dammit, but I can't think of a better one) of New Japan loyalists/fans were really paying attention.

 

His in ring work peaked to new absurd levels just at the right time, just as the company as a whole began its rise.

[W2BTD]

Looking at the numbers, I wonder if anyone will get in next year. I don't see any of the new candidates making it, but there doesn't seem to be anyone coming close this year who's category is going to open up next year. The category most affected by this year's results might well be Japan (people voting only for Tanahashi this year who don't vote Japan next time), but nobody seems in a strong position to capitalize.

 

Karloff Lagarde is probably the best bet to get a push over 60% from the Lucha category opening up, though he's listed as having 29 votes, which doesn't add up -- either the 29 votes or the 52% must be a typo.

Rock & Roll Express & Carlos Colon.

 

I don't see a reason for people to stop voting for either, unless all five of the admittedly strong new candidates all do very well. So if there is a decent push for either, they should make it.

 

I'm so baffled by RnRE, but then again I am every year.

[goodhelmet]

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The argument isn't "listen to what these wrestlers say on Buddy Rose!" It's the fact that is a metric that has been extolled as super meaningful by Dave before I personally don't give two fucks what people thought of Rose as a worker at the time, but the fact he is that he was well thought of, which supposedly "matters more" than people like us praising him now that we have footage to prove it.

 

My problem with Joe's point is that he was basically saying "sure within the isolated niche that is PWO Rose is thought of as an all time great," and while it is true that this little niche are the people most interested in watching the footage that exists, it is a massive stretch to say Rose wasn't thought of highly before hand. He was. It's just he never worked for a major promotion for any real length of time and he didn't have Dave talking him up in every issue of the Observer for two straight years.

 

This! It wasn't misguided at all. It was a direct response to something said in the thread to demonstrate that Rose as a great worker isn't a PWO revelation.

[JerryvonKramer]

Does Meltzer have any stuff about Rose in the very early Observers? Does he have ratings for Portland matches?

[NintendoLogic]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, why shouldn't the opinions of peers and contemporaries carry more weight than those of guys watching footage decades after the fact? Also, if Rose was so highly regarded by his peers, why isn't he a serious HOF candidate? It's not just that he cant get in, he can't even stay on the ballot.

[goodhelmet]

He wasn't highly regarded by his peers if you were paying attention. He was thought of as a scumbag. That point has already been made.

 

I'll respond to your other point later.

[Bix]

At the risk of sounding like a troll, why shouldn't the opinions of peers and contemporaries carry more weight than those of guys watching footage decades after the fact? Also, if Rose was so highly regarded by his peers, why isn't he a serious HOF candidate? It's not just that he cant get in, he can't even stay on the ballot.

1. Because sometimes they'll push someone because he was a nice guy or say he was a great worker without giving one reason why.

2. Considered a bit of a con-man, wife beater, unrepentant drug addict, etc...there have been guys that hasn't stopped but the voters have to be more gung ho in the first place.

[Jesse Ewiak]

The more I think about it basically Tanahashi got into the HOF for 2-years of work really because if you go back to pre-2011 there wasn't a whole lot of love thrown Tanahashi or New Japan in general's direction. Sure we can go back 6-7 years for Tanahashi being a top guy but the way it looks and I'm just speculating that he got in just for 2-3 years of work is staggering.

 

Not saying it's fact but it really looks that way.

There is no question 2012 & 2013 put him over the top.

 

His work previous was highly touted, but since barely anybody was paying attention to New Japan before roughly the mid point of 2011, nobody outside a small niche (that word again dammit, but I can't think of a better one) of New Japan loyalists/fans were really paying attention.

 

His in ring work peaked to new absurd levels just at the right time, just as the company as a whole began its rise.

 

I actually have to agree with this. If you go back to the people actually watching New Japan during '07 and '08, aka the 'there's nothing happening in Japan' years (TM Bryan Alvarez), Alan Summers and Mike Semperviese, to name two guys, were both praising Tanahashi as fantastic back then. It's just nobody was watching because it wasn't 1996 anymore.

[NintendoLogic]

He wasn't highly regarded by his peers if you were paying attention. He was thought of as a scumbag. That point has already been made.

 

I'll respond to your other point later.

I was paying attention, specifically when it was brought up that he was highly regarded as a worker. And if being a scumbag were an absolute disqualifier, Carlos Colon wouldn't be knocking on the door every year.

[goodhelmet]

At the niche website DVDVR, I am curious how Tanahashi's matches faired in Ditch's Japan polls.

[Bix]

BTW since it became a point of contention, I'll cop to forgetting I was already voting for Japan via Matsunaga. The non-wrestler candidates are so heavily skewed towards North America that it never crossed my mind in that way for some reason.

[goodhelmet]

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5571088[/url]' date='Nov 6 2013, 08:04 PM']He wasn't highly regarded by his peers if you were paying attention. He was thought of as a scumbag. That point has already been made.

 

I'll respond to your other point later.

I was paying attention, specifically when it was brought up that he was highly regarded as a worker. And if being a scumbag were an absolute disqualifier, Carlos Colon wouldn't be knocking on the door every year.

 

Colon is a completely different animal. One, he was a promoter, owner of the company and the #1 ace of the island. It would be like combinng Don Owen and Buddy Rose into one. Also, I don't knew of any historic record of Colon being known as a great worker. Also, the Colon being a scumbag comes down to the fallout over Brody's death. There is a split between those who hold it against him and those who don't when voting.

[BrickHithouse]

What exactly is the criteria to obtain a vote for this version of a wrestling HOF? Ex-wrestler or sucking Dave's balls?

 

What's all this hullabaloo about then? You've got Colt Cabana not voting for RnR because Morton was a dick to him one time, or Gibson's eye is too far out of alignment, or whatever the hell that is? Fuck Cabana then, take his vote away. Or make him come up with a better reason.

 

Why doesn't Dylan have a vote? Or Loss? Goodhelmet? Khawk, for Christ's sake? Dylan watches more wrestling than any two people here combined.

 

There is no legit HOF and I personally don't see how this is less of a sham than the WWE HOF that houses Vince Sr's limo driver.

 

A possible way to make this version slightly less of a sham would be for one of the regular Dave Ball Suckers we have here to get to sucking a little bit more, change up the routine, or whatever of Dave's needs sucked to get Dylan and Khawk, at minimum, a ballot.

[evilclown]

I would note that this thread is how HoF debates should be done. When clown said "eh Ivan Koloff, prove it" people actually did the work and tried to offer something up. That's what I've done with Patera. Years ago it's what James Phillips (I think) did with Kong who was stonewalled for years.

 

To me there needs to be cases made for guys. That's half the point of the Hall of Fame.

I agree. I was hoping that was what this guy would do for Tanahashi. Instead, he decided just asking the question made me an asshole. I wanted to learn something from him.

[goodhelmet]

5571105[/url]']

What exactly is the criteria to obtain a vote for this version of a wrestling HOF? Ex-wrestler or sucking Dave's balls?

 

What's all this hullabaloo about then? You've got Colt Cabana not voting for RnR because Morton was a dick to him one time, or Gibson's eye is too far out of alignment, or whatever the hell that is? Fuck Cabana then, take his vote away. Or make him come up with a better reason.

 

Why doesn't Dylan have a vote? Or Loss? Goodhelmet? Khawk, for Christ's sake? Dylan watches more wrestling than any two people here combined.

 

There is no legit HOF and I personally don't see how this is less of a sham than the WWE HOF that houses Vince Sr's limo driver.

 

A possible way to make this version slightly less of a sham would be for one of the regular Dave Ball Suckers we have here to get to sucking a little bit more, change up the routine, or whatever of Dave's needs sucked to get Dylan and Khawk, at minimum, a ballot.

 

Goddamn... The Chiefs go 9-0 and Brick comes out of the woodwork. As someone who appreciates your photoshop skills in making Harley Race appear throughout the most iconic moments in history, you deserve a ballot.

[jdw]

2001-03 is only a few years removed from business being strong. Tanahashi is now a decade and a half removed from when business was strong.

Tanahashi is 7 years into being pushed as a World Champion. When he was first pushed as Champ, we were a day less than NOAH packing the Dome for the second straight year. Two years from Jun being able to hold up his end of the bargin as an opponent for Kobashi to pack the Dome on that 2004 card.

 

So yeah, Tanahashi in 2013 is quite removed from days when the business was strong. A large chunk of the period, 5-6 years of it, was when Tanahashi and Nakamura were anchoring New Japan.

 

 

The bottom has not only fallen out of the wrestling business, but K-1 and MMA too. At least a decade ago, the business could leech off MMA.

I don't think there was a lot of positive leaching by New Japan off of MMA a decade ago. It actually helped lead to the fall. In turn, NOAH really didn't give a crap about MMA. But setting that aside, it kind of misses the obvious reason why Jun drew better in New Japan in 2001-03 than Tanahashi has in New Japan.

 

 

If Tanahashi is any kind of draw, it's the difference between 3-4k and 8k on a non-sell out Sumo Hall show. You have to seriously question whether drawing an extra 3k in 2012/13 is harder than selling out Sumo Hall on consecutive nights during a hot period.

New Japan wasn't hot in 2003 when Jun popped in. The promotion was already in the crapper by that point. He made it hot. Again, for obvious reasons.

 

 

It doesn't make Tanahashi a HOF draw, because he's clearly not, but there were guys who ride the wave during hot periods who wouldn't draw much more today and who were never in a situation like Tanahashi where you're scraping to draw 3k more from a small market.

Small market? Tokyo isn't a small market.

 

 

Workers who folks would give some sort of cred to for drawing power in the 90s weren't able to stop the rot when they were still headlining. Is that on the talent or the promoters? Because if it's on the promoters then the promoters ought to get more credit for the hot periods and then the drawing power of some of these 90s stars is questionable.

The promoters all got credit in the 90s. As did the stars.

 

As far as once hot wrestlers no longer drawing what they once did, look up Hogan in 1994 and 1995. Did he draw what he did in 1986? No one expects Misawa to draw in 2002 what he drew in 1992, or that signs of rot wouldn't set in from running the same thing for a decade.

 

But here's the irony:

 

We've talked over the years about Kobashi not being a massive draw in All Japan, to the point that Baba forced the belt onto Misawa at a time when Misawa had just said he wasn't going to be challenging for the title until the following year and that it was Kobashi's time.

 

I've been the one who several times has said that one could craft a very credible-on-the-surface argument that Kawada was a big and important draw for All Japan, only to point out that it would be a flawed argument. I use that as a regular example of people giving too much credit to certain draws: it's easy to do if you don't slow down to think about it.

 

For years many of us have pointed out the repeated failings of Akiyama and Sasaki when pushed as aces.

 

So I'm trying to think of who you think we have been unfairly complimentary in terms of drawing power in Japan?

 

 

Why is Aja Kong considered a draw?

 

It's less that she was a Hoganesque draw. It's that she went and worked on *mens* show and was the key worker than Men in the audience saw and thought, "This Joshi is more than we thought it is" and thus started going to Joshi cards. That flipped the fan base from what it had been in the 80s (and earlier) to what it was in the 90s. It's less that Aja got over "Aja", but that she was a key element in getting over "Joshi". When those fans went to see a Joshi card, they saw a whole host of workers who could go and do tremendous things.

 

It's a different thing than just "draw". It's "impact", which opened eyes and led to a big change. She wasn't the only one, but she was the one cited at the time.

 

The gates Aja has drawn for a long time now ought to be considered a negative if people are being consistent.

It's 2013. Aja and AJW hit a peak together in 1992-95. It would be like anyone looking at Arnold's box office bomb earlier this year and thinking it's a negative for Terminator or Terminator 2. No... those movies did numbers, and a failure now doesn't really matter.

 

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

I wasn't trying to compare Rose and Colon as candidates. I was just pointing out that character issues don't single-handedly turn you into a joke candidate.

 

Anyway, I'm going to once again that the WON HOF's prohibition on being inducted multiple times is completely asinine. The Four Horsemen and the Holy Demon Army should be locks for any pro wrestling HOF, but they're not eligible because Flair and Kawada are already in as singles performers.

[jdw]

There appear to be 120 people voting in the Europe category, which is staggeringly high.

Which is funny since I doubt there are 120 voters who know much of anything about Europe.

 

I passed on that group because I don't feel remotely qualified to vote in it. Not just in watching the stuff, but in reading and conversing enough with people on it.

 

John

[concrete1992]

I would note that this thread is how HoF debates should be done. When clown said "eh Ivan Koloff, prove it" people actually did the work and tried to offer something up. That's what I've done with Patera. Years ago it's what James Phillips (I think) did with Kong who was stonewalled for years.

 

To me there needs to be cases made for guys. That's half the point of the Hall of Fame.

I agree. I was hoping that was what this guy would do for Tanahashi. Instead, he decided just asking the question made me an asshole. I wanted to learn something from him.

 

To be fair he went in on why he thought Tanahashi was good in-ring pretty well.