Wrestling Culture Episode 50

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay, trying to stick to the parameters of "in-ring" which I take to mean "stuff guys do from bell to bell". As I said, I find it difficult, because character is so much part and parcel of that.

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Terry Funk

3. Stan Hansen

4. Jumbo Tsuruta

5. Nick Bockwinkel

6. Genichiro Tenryu

7. Ricky Steamboat

8. Randy Savage

9. Bobby Eaton

10. Ted DiBiase

11. Ricky Morton

12. Tully Blanchard

13. Arn Anderson

14. Rick Martel

15. Vader

16. Ron Garvin

17. Bret Hart

18. Yoshiaki Yatsu

19. Rick Rude

20. Jerry Blackwell

 

That's where I'm at right now. Extreme 80s bias with strong leanings towards NWA, but that's what I've been watching the past the couple of years.

 

Of guys I've been watching recently, here are people I'd give a shot of breaking in with more time and watching:

 

- Pat Patterson, honestly just a great worker

- Some of the 80s Lucha guys, in particular Mocho Cota (who I know isn't on the set much beyond disc 2 ), Sangre Chicana and El Satanico.

- Jerry Lawler, it's taking me a long time to really "get" him -- but from 90 Yearbook, his stuff on AWA, and disc 1 of Memphis, I'm starting to come round, a little bit

- Bill Dundee, now this guy has been really good in every match I've seen him in, and could easily break in soon. On the cusp. Lock once I'm done with Memphis

- Greg Valentine, also a really great worker in 1979, will be in a shoo-in once I've seen his high-end Tito stuff

- Tatsumi Fujinami ... in the 1980 New Japan stuff so far, he's shown incredible versatility against a variety of opponents working a variety of different styles, more or less guaranteed a place once I'm done with New Japan

- Bob Backlund, while I'm predisposed to not liking Backlund, I can see a day where I'd begrudgingly rank him highly just through sheer number of good matches

- Dutch Mantell, only a couple of matches so far but he looks like a worker I could really get into

- Buzz Sawyer, again has looked great whenever I've seen him, it's just a case of seeing more

- Bob Orton Jr., the inclusion of Yatsu on my list should tell you that I love me some cool offense; has every chance depending on how much good stuff he has out there.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't see how the Mr. Perfect run hurts Hennig so much. Surely he's not the worst case of a guy going to the majors and losing everything that was good about him. Is his WWF stuff really that bad?

 

I'm trying to think of a guy who was as good as Hennig was that lost as much and I'm drawing a blank. You can find good matches with Hennig in the WWF. I like the Bret matches though I think they are wildly overrated, I really like a couple of his random tv matches in 93, he has some decent pinball performances here or there. But by and large he became the most flat and uninteresting "bump machine" heel in the ring that you could possibly conceive of in the WWF.

[ohtani's jacket]

Uninteresting seems a bit harsh, but I haven't watched a ton of his pre-WWF stuff. His WWF run seemed better to me than guys like Windham, Martel, Scorpio, Duggan or even a guy like Tully.

[puropotsy]

I would love to do a compiled list with everyone. Set a six-month window, people can try to cover some blind spots if they feel the need but what is cool is for people's blind spots to balance each other out. I didn't go into our list show having examined yuki ishikawa and ruling him out, I just hadn't thought of him and now want to examine him. It's about exploring stuff, and again it's not curing cancer.

[Dylan Waco]

Scorpio was saddled with a shit gimmick, was given nothing to work with and came over in a completely different era so it's a very difficult comparison to make. Windham might be a good pick but his run was so much shorter and The Stalker thing was way after his body had gone to shit and he quit giving a fuck. Martel is a much better face than heel - his tag work in the WWF was very good and while his heel turn yielded nothing memorable, I don't think he was really any better or worse than Hennig in the Perfect role. Duggan I won't argue with.

[WingedEagle]

I would love to do a compiled list with everyone. Set a six-month window, people can try to cover some blind spots if they feel the need but what is cool is for people's blind spots to balance each other out. I didn't go into our list show having examined yuki ishikawa and ruling him out, I just hadn't thought of him and now want to examine him. It's about exploring stuff, and again it's not curing cancer.

Exactly. Let's make it go. Can push it to 6/1 if we want a round date. It'll be a great, cohesive way to take a snapshot of peoples' views and generating thoughts for what folks want to look into.

[ohtani's jacket]

Congratulations on your 50th show.

 

I listened to the second part during my commutes. A couple of points I wanted to raise:

 

* I don't think Volk Han was the poster child for realism in shoot style. He didn't seem as influenced by Pancrase as Tamura, Sakuraba and Kohsaka were and had a whole bunch of schtick to go along with some pretty strong pro-wrestling sensibilities in terms of build and pay-off.

 

* I wouldn't disagree with Black Terry or Negro Navarro in someone's top 50, but without getting into another peak vs. longevity slugfest that seems to be allowing Terry and Navarro some pretty generous late career peak mileage, especially Navarro who it pains me to say does not really start out prior to his reinvention in the 2000s.

 

* We have an equal amount of footage from Breaks in the 70s and 80s, possibly a bit more from the 80s. After '84, he jumps to ASW and there's only sporadic footage of him after that, but there will be a fair amount of '80-84 footage on the set. I haven't gone through his feuds against Dennison or Collins yet as I don't like those guys, but he's basically a '73-83 guy in terms of the footage that's available.

 

* As a New Zealander, I feel a moral obligation to watch more Pat O'Connor. That's my next project.

 

* I loved Fujiwara and Satanico being married on Dylan's list. That was beautiful.

 

* Maybe it's the contrarian in me, but I'm kind of over this whole Dandy thing. I want to see some critical appraisal of him similar to Dylan's comments on Misawa, who I feel was a better worker than Kawada but had some good points raised about. I don't really feel that lucha gets critically appraised enough in general, which I think is a real shame, though I understand that at the moment it's more about exposure than critically evaluating it.

 

* Casas is a guy who I tend to be hard on because at his best he's a sublime genius and anything less is below what he's capable of, but recently I really dug his kickass post '97 hair loss run. It's like Owen's return after Montreal if Owen's return after Montreal had been handled right.

[Childs]

Here's my snapshot 50:

 

1) Stan Hansen

2) Toshiaki Kawada

3) Yoshiaki Fujiwara

4) Genichiro Tenryu

5) Ric Flair

6) El Dandy

7) Jumbo Tsuruta

8) Mitsuharu Misawa

9) Jerry Lawler

10) Tatsumi Fujinami

11) Rey Mysterio Jr.

12) Riki Choshu

13) Shinya Hashimoto

14) Nick Bockwinkel

15) Buddy Rose

16) Satanico

17) Kenta Kobashi

18) Terry Funk

19) Hijo Del Santo

20) Bryan Danielson

21) Negro Casas

22) Vader

23) Eddy Guerrero

24) Ricky Morton

25) Jushin Liger

26) Volk Han

27) Bill Dundee

28) Steve Regal

29) Ricky Steamboat

30) Finlay

31) Barry Windham

32) Bret Hart

33) Bobby Eaton

34) Randy Savage

35) Naoki Sano

36) Pirata Morgan

37) Kiyoshi Tamura

38) Billy Robinson

39) Akira Taue

40) Blue Panther

41) Yuki Ishikawa

42) Dick Togo

43) Rick Martel

44) Steve Grey

45) Tully Blanchard

46) Arn Anderson

47) Dick Murdoch

48) Greg Valentine

49) Dustin Rhodes

50) Steve Austin

[puropotsy]

Enjoyable show lads, love it. I have to say I'm on the opposite side to Dylan with the Tenryu/Jumbo thing. I find something very likeable and endearing about Jumbo, especially that goofy "OOOAAAH!" thing he does when he's firing up.

I am too. I think Tenryu's surliness and his emotionless face hurt him when he's meant to be the plucky young protege. He's not very sympathetic or likable. However, those same qualities make him awesome in 88-89.

 

 

I've still not got up to the late 80's in my All Japan viewing so my attitude towards Tenryu might change. (For what it's worth I've seen zero New Japan outside of the current stuff)

 

The 80's set looks like a good place for me to start with Lucha.

 

But even with my silly little list names keep on popping up in my head that I'd forgotten and somehow wish I could squeeze in (Dibiase, Bockwinkel, Carlos Colon, Azumi Hyuga, and, yes, Shawn Michaels).

 

Hard work.

 

Most importantly, I first read your name as Battlekitten

[bradhindsight]

Its a purely subjective analysis so you're never going to be fully confident in every call. There'll be consensus around certain names and positions, and less so about others. If it fosters interesting discussion and sparks people to either look back at something or explore something new, that's great. No downside.

Right - plus if you put together a top 50 now, your baseline has been created. The hard work is over. In two years when you revisit - and we've all watched a ton more - you have ready-made debates based on your prior list and can move things around without completely having to re-create the wheel.

 

There's no reason to wait

[efrim]

Have to thank you guys for making me aware of Negro Casas via this discussion. My life is now 100x better forever.

 

I have such a gaping blindspot on lucha - can anybody recommend an El Dandy match to jump in to his non-WCW output with?

[Superstar Sleeze]

Hardly the guy to do this, but didnt want to leave you hanging: for mat based, Angel Azteca 6/90 and for blood feud, Satanico 12/90.

 

I was in Dave's teens when he hit us with Pat O'Connor and stated O'Connor/Rogers was good enough to get O'Connor in his Top 50 alone. I am curious as to why the same does not hold true for Rogers. I like that match a lot too and I gravitated more towards Rogers performance and the post-match statement: "It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!" is the all-time great prick moments in wrestling. So why no love for the Nature Boy in your Top 50?

 

Follow-up, it seems we have a lot more O'Connor on youtube than I thought, but I remember searching for Buddy Rogers a year ago and it was slim pickings. Does anybody know of some Buddy Rogers matches out there? The stories I hear about him make me think him would be instantaneously one of my favorite wrestlers.

[puropotsy]

I did consider Buddy Rogers, but Pat O'Connor's performance and ability resonated more with me from a worker perspective. But I did love Buddy in that match as well, especially his post-match promo and I always likened Brock Lesnar in UFC to that moment of Rogers or to Superstar Graham as champion. But ya, O'Connor just came off as one of the best babyface workers of all time where as Rogers comes off more as the combination of good worker and awesome over-all performer. Could easily have went with him though and perhaps if there was more footage to review or if I thought about it longer I would.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Here's my baseline list given where I am at. I am a huge Jim Crockett/WCW and All Japan fan I think it shine through in this list. I am definitely more familiar with the 90s and the 00s. I am working really hard to catch up on the 80s. I followed a similar line of logic as Dylan as I rated based on only actual viewing. So that means no Lucha or Shoot-Style.

 

 

 

1. Ric Flair - The Man, sheer volume

2. Stan Hansen - Inching closer and closer

3. Mtsuharu Misawa - Best comeback

4. Toshiaki Kawada - Best knee selling

5. Rey Misterio Jr. - Perfect Integration of Lucha & American wrestling

6. Jumbo Tsuruta - Mr. All Japan

7. Eddie Guerrero - Most Entertaining Wrestler

8. Jushin Liger - Best Japanese Junior

9. Vader - Best big man ever

10. Kenta Kobashi - Amazing facial expressions and histronics

11. Terry Funk - Ultimate Main Event Utility Player

12. Randy Savage - Intensity, credibility, ruthless

13. Barry Windham - Best ring movement

14. Bobby Eaton - Best punch

15. Ricky Morton - FIP

16. Genichiro Tenryu - King Prick

17. Arn Anderson - Best midcarder ever?

18. Greg Valentine - Best WWF Bellhop (Could carry anyone).

19. Shawn Michaels - Rockers run & 90s singles >>>>>>>> 00s comeback

20. Akira Taue - 1995

21. Nick Bockwinkel - Thinking man's wrestler

22. John Cena - Best wrestler of 00s

23. Shinya Hashimoto - Best Strong Style

24. Bret Hart - Best offensive moveset of North America

25. Dr. Death - 1994

26. Steve Austin - Best Attitude Era Worker

27. Bob Backlund - God of Headlocks

28. Daniel Bryan - Sky is the limit...well you know...

29. Chris Benoit - Separation of art and the man

30. Dustin Rhodes/Goldust - Saga continues...

31. Tito Santana - Blood feud worker

32. Rick Martel - Most consistent wrestler

33. Lex Luger - Best bodybuilder wrestler

34. Hulk Hogan - Most underrated

35. Brian Pillman - What could have been?

36. Ricky Steamboat - Incredible matches

37. Mick Foley - Method to the madness

38. William Regal - Ring General

39. Ronnie Garvin - OW!

40. Rick Rude - Needs a broader peak

41. Owen Hart - Best Younger Brother Brat

42. Curt Hennig - AWA salvages Mr. Perfect

43. Kerry Von Erich - Flair/Jumbo, need to see more

44. Buddy Rose - Like what I have seen

45. Jerry Lawler - Need to see more

46. Tully Blanchard - Need to see more

47. Marty Jannetty - Rockers

48. Sean Waltman - Best Underdog Story...until now?

49. Psicosis - Clowning

50. CM Punk - Cena matches

[pantherwagner]

There was a brief discussion on the podcast about what a "lucha de maestros" really means and how both Dave and Dylan didn't feel like an authority to give a definition of what it really means, and not like I feel that I am that authority at all, but it is kind of simple.

 

"Maestro" is a double play on words in Spanish: it means "master" as well as "teacher" or "trainer", so the original idea basically was to play against each other guys who were old timers who had mastered the craft (and by that it mostly means matwork and wacky submissions) as well as having a reputation as trainers. Of course this being pro wrestling the concept is what the promoter wants it to be so most of the time it's really old men fighting each other using the old title match style. You have had matches of that kind with people like Mano Negra (who was a perfectly fine journeyman but far from a master of the craft) or Ultraman (who may have helped some guys here and there but I don't think really has got any kind of reputation as a trainer).

[Dylan Waco]

That was articulated ten times better than I would have been able to do. I've probably watched thirty Solar/Navarro matches/exchanges in the last few years, so I know it when I see it, but I'm terrible at explaining it

[puropotsy]

Superstar Sleeze and Pantherwagner just went head-to-head for my favorite posts ever, anywhere.

[Matt D]

I refuse to actually order these, but I've come up with a working list of 50. The order is "when I thought of someone."

 

Nick Bockwinkel

Buddy Rose

Terry Funk

Jerry Lawler

Steve Regal

Bobby Eaton

Dustin Rhodes

Mark Henry

Daniel Bryan

Ricky Morton

El Satanico

El Dandy

Mocho Cota

Sangre Chicana

Bill Dundee

Rick Martel

Bill Eade

Eddy Guerrero

Barry Windham

Arn Anderson

Bret Hart

Greg Valentine

Tito Santana

Tully Blanchard

Jerry Blackwell

Rey Mysterio, Jr.

Fit Finlay

Brian Pillman

Big Van Vader

Ricky Steamboat

Ric Flair

Too Cold Scorpio

Billy Robinson

Steve Austin

Randy Savage

Mr. Saito

Jim Brunzell

Curt Hennig

Roddy Piper

Stan Hansen

Tracy Smothers

Rip Rogers

Andre the Giant

Ernie Ladd

Mick Foley

Antonio Cesaro

Christian

Larry Zbyszko

Chris Masters

Bobby Heenan

 

The only guy on there that's really dubious is Hansen because I really just haven't seen enough, so if you want to, you can sub him out for Chris Colt. And yes, like I said, my only Japanese guy is Saito.