Wrestling Culture Episode 50

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think there is any question that guys come up and down depending on what people are watching at the time. I even referenced that on the show (I think?). The best you can do is try and be sensible about things (for example I haven't watched Misawa, Kawada or Kobashi in their prime in years but they all did well).

 

Also I haven't seen the Mid-South set. I have seen a lot of what is on the set, but not the whole thing. I was never at any point as big a Dibiase fan as some people, though I acknowledge it's possible he could have placed toward the end of my list if I had seen that set from beginning to end a week before we did this show.

 

Having said that I do think Windham is easily better than Dibiase. In fact I think 93 Windham - which most people cite as past his prime - is better than any year I've seen of Ted's career (possible a more complete viewing of Mid-South would change my opinion here).

[Loss]

I think additional Mid South viewing is more likely to raise your stock in Duggan than DiBiase. Maybe Butch Reed too. But for the most part, it's wrestlers that people know are really good doing really good things.

[puropotsy]

Trust me, I was actually nervous about forming the list and putting the opinions out there. I considered Dibiase, he just wasn't my choice to put on.

 

Noone who is deep enough into wrestling to be on a board like this should be nervous about putting together a list as everyone is quite knowledgeable.

 

I also need to say that it is so great that people are positive about the show, fifty episodes ago I was timid about starting to put myself out there and every bit of support is appreciated.

[Matt D]

I still think Bossman could well be better than Ted.

[KrisZ]

I wouldn't like to rank them but I could make a Top 50 list easily.

[Dylan Waco]

Shit if you could do it easily, you are a better man than I.

 

It's crazy because when the Smarkschoice poll was done back in 06 it seemed like there were just over 100 people who I thought were really solid contenders for a list like that. Now there would be hundreds who I would consider worthy of a top 100. I said it on the show but my list started with 107 names and I chipped it down. Even still there were names I didn't even consider that have popped up here - Sano, Larry Z, Kudo - who maybe should have.

 

Take someone like Chris Adams. Seven years ago if someone had said they were going to rate him in a top fifty I would have thought that was fucking crazy. But after watching a lot of stuff of his from the 80s and with the USWA Texas stuff out there now I wouldn't even dispute it if he popped up on someones list.

 

There are a plethora of guys like that.

[Matt D]

I wouldn't do it. I think my highest japanese guys would be Saito and maybe Tajiri. I think I've seen 1-2 Misawa matches in my life, if that. My list would be patently ridiculous.

[Dylan Waco]

Saito is another guy I agonized over because his best performances and matches are outstanding.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still think Bossman could well be better than Ted.

I can admit there's at least an argument for Bossman over Ted in WWF from our old debates Matt, but after revisiting some of Ted in his pomp in MidSouth and seeing young fired-up babyface Ted in 1979, I think you'd be really hard pressed to make a career vs. career argument. I also have some hopes for him being good in the St. Louis stuff. I mentioned Ted not just because of my man-love for him but also because he often makes top 50 lists of this nature and was a Meltzer / smart darling who was thought of as a "best worker in the world" type guy for at least a decade. He was also the top ranked worker in the Mid-South voting -- and those sorts of guys tend to be well-represented. I was just curious really given than guys like Curt Hennig were making the cut.

 

Anyway, this is not intended as any sort of knock --- I think what both Dylan's and Dave's lists are testament to just how many great guys there are out there. Dylan left Bret off his list. Neither person had Backlund. Neither one had Dick Murdoch. Or Tully. Or any number of guys you could point to. Yet no one looks particularly "out of place" on either of their lists.

 

I might feel more comfortable making a list once I'm done with 80s Lucha, seen more Buddy Rose, and finished more yearbooks (or even just one right Chad ) . I could probably think about a US Top 50, I just worry about my anti-modern biases. I'd probably be happier doing a more "total package" sort of list. I've still never really got my head around separating "in-ring" or "work" from all the other things that wrestlers do, they feel inextricably linked to me. But that's just me.

[Dylan Waco]

On Hennig I had him at fifty and struggled with him a ton. As a peak performer I feel he has a very strong case. I love him as a babyface and I love him as a heel. He was a good tag wrestler, often times despite his partners. He had great long matches and great short/sprint matches. He was a very underrated brawler, could sell his ass off, of course was a freak of a bumper, and early in his career had pretty good offense. His best matches stack up very well next to the best matches of other top workers during that era and the volume of solid matches was high. When put in the ring with other excellent (frankly BETTER) performers he was able to rise to the occasion (v. Rose, v. Bock, v. Hansen, v. Lawler). When put in the ring with middling guys or guys with limited talents or just guys who weren't all that over he could still put on good matches (v. Peterson, v. Snow, I felt he got more out of late stage Greg Gagne than anyone else by a wide margin). But the Mr. Perfect run hurts him in my eyes. If he doesn't have that Perfect run I could see a case for him several spots higher than he was. Without it he was one of many guys I considered for the fifty slot. If I were doing it again he'd likely get bumped out and Arn would get plugged in around 42 or 43.

[JerryvonKramer]

I can see the argument for Hennig, Dylan; I think you were a hell of a lot higher on his babyface stuff than me though -- and partly that comes down to taste, but it may also partly come down to the fact that you watched all the TV too.

 

If people feel that it's still generally too early to do another Smarkschoice-style poll, I do think it would be really cool if people could give at least their top 10s here as a kind of "snapshot in time" type thing. I'm gonna put my thinking hat on and do a "gun to the head" type scenario to see if I can get a top 10 out of it -- right now at this point.

[Dylan Waco]

I would love to do another SC type poll, but I also think it's unlikely to ever happen. The problem is that the argument has always been "lets finish the 80's sets and yearbooks." Well that will take a while, but will eventually happen. However when that happens there will tons of unexplored more modern stuff that was ignored, shunted aside, under discussed, et. Some people don't give a fuck about lists and that's fine. I enjoy them because they bring about discussion, but I also feel like it is pointless to wait for a "perfect time" to do them because that will never come.

 

On Hennig's bayface run, I actually think you could argue he was a sharper babyface in Portland than the AWA. I like the AWA babyface work a lot more than you - hell my favorite singles match on the set was a babyface Curt match - but the Portland stuff adds depth to it.

[Badlittlekitten]

Enjoyable show lads, love it. I have to say I'm on the opposite side to Dylan with the Tenryu/Jumbo thing. I find something very likeable and endearing about Jumbo, especially that goofy "OOOAAAH!" thing he does when he's firing up. Rick Martel is another guy like Tenryu for me; an excellent wrestler that ultimately bores me and not somebody that I'd get excited about watching. (I just watched the Portland Martel vs Ed Wiskoski match for the first time and, yes, it was excellent.)

 

I popped for Buddy Rose. I hope more people come round to watching and appreciating him.

 

My knowledge of Japan is limited and I know fuck all about Lucha so I wouldn't attempt a comprehensive 'best wrestler' list anytime soon. Even if I had the knowledge, putting together this type of list is not something that interests me to be honest (although the value of others doing it can't be overestimated).

 

I had done a list a little while ago though. Whenever I do these things it's purely based on 'people I enjoy watching most at this moment'. Anything else would drive me mad.

 

Sorry I don't know how to use the good spoiler tag, but for shits . .

 

(I'm not putting it in bloody order. Extra special people in bold. )

 

Abdullah Butcher

Aja Kong

Akira Hokuto

Antonio Cesaro

Arn Anderson

Barry Windham

Bill Dundee

Bill Eadie

Billy Robinson

Bob Backlund

Bobby Eaton

Bret Hart

Brian Pillman

Buddy Rose

Bull Nakano

Chigusa Nagayo

Daniel Bryan

Dean Ambrose

Dustin Rhodes

Dusty Rhodes

Dutch Mantell

Ed Wiskoski

Hulk Hogan

Jerry Blackwell

Jerry Lawler

Jim Breaks

John Cena

Jumbo Tsuruta

Koko Ware

Madison Eagles

Mark Henry

Mickey Whiplash

Myumi Ozaki

Owen Hart

Portia Perez

Randy Savage

Red Lightning

Rey Mysterio

Ric Flair

Ricky Morton

Riki Choshu

Sara Del Rey

Stan Hansen

Steve Austin

Terry Funk

Tommy Rich

Tully Blanchard

Vordell Walker

William Regal

Yumi Ikeshita

[Grimmas]

When Dave told me about this episode a week ago, I was excited. It didn't dissapoint, a great episode. Loved the lists and discussions.

 

I like the idea of doing another pool, although I would need a LOT of time to rewatch. I can do a top ten right now, good idea Parv. Of course, this would change a lot with watching some of the sets I missed and other footage.

 

1. Stan Hansen

2. Terry Funk

3. Rey Mysterio, Jr.

4. Jerry Lawler

5. Genichiro Tenryu

6. Negro Casas

7. Bret Hart

8. Ric Flair

9. Steven Regal

10. Randy Savage

 

With these four fighting to get on the list.

 

Eddie Guerrero

Nick Bockwinkel

Toshiaki Kawada

Tatsumi Fujinami

[JerryvonKramer]

Enjoyable show lads, love it. I have to say I'm on the opposite side to Dylan with the Tenryu/Jumbo thing. I find something very likeable and endearing about Jumbo, especially that goofy "OOOAAAH!" thing he does when he's firing up.

I am too. I think Tenryu's surliness and his emotionless face hurt him when he's meant to be the plucky young protege. He's not very sympathetic or likable. However, those same qualities make him awesome in 88-89.

 

I also simply don't get the Jumbo as Terry Taylor thing. I don't get that at all. Jumbo in some ways reminds me of Thunder from Big Trouble in Little China

 

 

And it's not just because he looks a little like him. It's because while he's nice on the surface, you don't want to piss him off. That's what makes Jumbo great once he truly becomes the man. He works in a way that suggests he's just above everyone else and there are times when he's actively affronted that this lowly no-name even dared to strike him. And that's when we see him him explode and start to lose his shit. It's those moments that make him compelling for me.

 

I don't get this "Jumbo had no emotion" talk.

[WingedEagle]

I enjoy them because they bring about discussion, but I also feel like it is pointless to wait for a "perfect time" to do them because that will never come.

Why not do it then? Hell, do it every year or 2. There will always be new footage popping up in circles such as this one, nevermind that tastes and opinions can change and evolve. No one should be wedded to prior rankings / votes. There are a bunch of guys regularly touted on PWO who I frankly have seen close to zero of. Perhaps that DQ's me from participating in the eyes of some, perhaps it doesn't. Ditto Matt D and the AJ crew. This is such a natural trigger for thinking and discussion that I don't see why it shouldn't be a regularly scheduled tradition.

[Badlittlekitten]

Enjoyable show lads, love it. I have to say I'm on the opposite side to Dylan with the Tenryu/Jumbo thing. I find something very likeable and endearing about Jumbo, especially that goofy "OOOAAAH!" thing he does when he's firing up.

I am too. I think Tenryu's surliness and his emotionless face hurt him when he's meant to be the plucky young protege. He's not very sympathetic or likable. However, those same qualities make him awesome in 88-89.

 

 

I've still not got up to the late 80's in my All Japan viewing so my attitude towards Tenryu might change. (For what it's worth I've seen zero New Japan outside of the current stuff)

 

The 80's set looks like a good place for me to start with Lucha.

 

But even with my silly little list names keep on popping up in my head that I'd forgotten and somehow wish I could squeeze in (Dibiase, Bockwinkel, Carlos Colon, Azumi Hyuga, and, yes, Shawn Michaels).

 

Hard work.

[soup23]

I feel I have three big blind spots that prevent me from contributing a list at this moment (80's lucha, 80's joshi, and 80's British). Breaks was someone that Dylan had on his list who I really have no opinion of. The way Satanico has looked lately he could be a top 20 candidate but I am not sure where I could put him now just based on that and the 90's stuff I have seen.

[Grimmas]

I enjoy them because they bring about discussion, but I also feel like it is pointless to wait for a "perfect time" to do them because that will never come.

Why not do it then? Hell, do it every year or 2. There will always be new footage popping up in circles such as this one, nevermind that tastes and opinions can change and evolve. No one should be wedded to prior rankings / votes. There are a bunch of guys regularly touted on PWO who I frankly have seen close to zero of. Perhaps that DQ's me from participating in the eyes of some, perhaps it doesn't. Ditto Matt D and the AJ crew. This is such a natural trigger for thinking and discussion that I don't see why it shouldn't be a regularly scheduled tradition.

 

You know what would be good? Let's say we do this and we have a deadline of say 2015? Then we try to sight and sound it and do it every 10 years (I can't believe I've been around the dvdr community for 14 years already, so a list in two years and every ten years is not that insane).

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's the thing with this though, I mean fuck, if Chad feels he's in a position that he can't make a call, where does that leave most of the rest of us? Maybe we have to all just admit we've got blindspots, or like Dylan said, you never get to that perfect moment.

 

The top 10 is really really hard to put together.

[WingedEagle]

Its a purely subjective analysis so you're never going to be fully confident in every call. There'll be consensus around certain names and positions, and less so about others. If it fosters interesting discussion and sparks people to either look back at something or explore something new, that's great. No downside.

[jpchicago23]

Seeing that the topic was in ring did you guys include Bret? I could see Arn being omitted although not for me personally but could not see the case for Bret not being there if he isn't

This is kind of funny, because Bret v. Arn was a comparison I mentioned when discussing Bret on the show

 

 

The comparison is valid to me Bret could've been an Arn type had the steroid stuff not happened. On the other hand I don't know if Arn could've done what Bret did in the spotlight as far as carrying the company for a short period and carrying bad workers to great matches. Not saying he couldnt because we've seen Arn have fun matches with guys like Badd and Renegade but not the same level. I plan on listening to show in the next day or so, should be interesting.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't see how the Mr. Perfect run hurts Hennig so much. Surely he's not the worst case of a guy going to the majors and losing everything that was good about him. Is his WWF stuff really that bad?

[Childs]

Stray thought. You guys mentioned Inoki aging poorly. That's largely true of '80s Inoki, but I've watched some '70s Inoki lately and that version actually ages well.

[Loss]

I don't see how the Mr. Perfect run hurts Hennig so much. Surely he's not the worst case of a guy going to the majors and losing everything that was good about him. Is his WWF stuff really that bad?

Completely over the top bumps without a lot of good offense. Shawn before Shawn, so your opinion on Shawn likely matches your opinion on Mr. Perfect, whatever that may be.