When the territories died

[JerryvonKramer]

Didn't our very own goodhelmet recently mention he lived in Alaska for a while? I immediately think of Fargo and then Al Pacino in Insomnia. Then Sarah Palin shooting a rifle into the sky. In that order.

[thebrainfollower]

I was about to lambast JDW about his calling JCP's expansion plans clear, but then I thought about it for a minute and compared to AWA's they certainly were. That's sort of a back handed compliment IMO (you tell me if that was the intention) because there were tons of things JCP did that just made no sense and helped cause the company's financial collapse.

 

Some of them are just mind blowingly dumb. I mean didn't Barry Windham, who basically freaked out on the insane WWF travel schedule in 85 see the parallels and try to reason with his best friend Dusty? Why did they think using a private jet for all those short trips and crafting a travel schedule that looks like a kindgertartener drawing a tornado was a good idea? It doesn't demean my view that Vince is a great businessman but cripes he had some first rate morons as opponents at times.

[King Solomon]

Was there any other situation anything like "Black Saturday" with Georgia where WWF TV directly replaced the local promotion's TV and people rejected it?

 

I can't think of any, Here in L.A. people were thrilled to have the WWF replace that garbage that Labell promoted

[jdw]

I was about to lambast JDW about his calling JCP's expansion plans clear, but then I thought about it for a minute and compared to AWA's they certainly were. That's sort of a back handed compliment IMO (you tell me if that was the intention) because there were tons of things JCP did that just made no sense and helped cause the company's financial collapse.

My use of "clear" was that JCP's expansion is clear to see and to point to when and where they went. They had some level of expansion in 1985, such as Philly. But a lot of it was GCW related. 1986 is their clear period of expanding significantly outside the old Mid Atlantic and GCW areas. Even stuff like Baltimore, where it looked like they expanded into in 1985, was really more PWUSA related. By early 1986, JCP cast aside PWUSA and made that their town, to good success.

 

As far as how they managed it... that's something we've all talked about.

[El Boricua]

I should have jumped into this thread earlier. A few things:

 

I think the WWC question is debatable for two reasons. One I think they actually briefly went out of business in the early 90s (93?) so it's a non-continuous territory. Secondly because of the nature of the promotion geographically it's hard to know what to call it. In terms of geographical area covered, it's almost certainly the smallest territory by a wide, wide margin (I don't count one off towns like St. Louis or Houston as territories in any meaningful sense, though they were meaningful cities). Yes they ran multiple shows a week and yes they were wildly successful. Even now there big shows do better than the big shows of any indie promotion, and there regular attendance is better than many promotions that have much higher profiles with "smart" fans. But I don't think they have run anywhere other than PR in years (I know they used to run Trinidad semi-regularly) and it's not like they are likely to in the future. In there heyday I think they qualified as a territory because of how they cycled talent, but it was a really unique place. I guess on some level they still qualify, but it's arguable. Either way I love WWC and want Borique to come in here and set me straight and explain to me the details of the WWC/IWA war, but that's probably best suited for another thread.

 

I also think the distinction between territories and regional feds is interesting. I actually have a hard time disagreeing with it, even though I also struggle with the idea that SMW wasn't a territory since they ran a regular loop, cycled talent to one degree or another and stayed within very narrow geographical limits. ECW is admittedly tougher to nail down, but my thought is that they were never really a territory in any sense of the term.

I've always thought the distinction between a territory and a regional promotion is down to place and time. It revolves around the NWA being the dominant power in the wrestling landscape. Outside of being a promoter for a determined area that the NWA would recognize as being your domain (be it as a member or as a non-member whose territory was recognized and respected by the NWA), what difference is there between what was a territory company then and a regional company now? Nowadays, NWA members aren't called territories. Conversely, the 'outlaw' feds from the territory days would be called regional companies today. What really muddles the waters is the avenues through which the feds can promote and broadcast their product to fans today.

 

As for WWC, I have to clarify the 'went under' comment I made in another thread. All Star Wrestling did shut down in 93, but WWC went bankrupt at some point in the mid 90's. The times that it seems most likely that the bankruptcy occurred are in 93 or in 95 post Eddie Gilbert's death . Part of the problem in being sure when this happened is that the promotion did not stop airing their TV show or running cards for any notable period of time throughout this whole period. Basically, the point the bankruptcy happened is when they stopped referring to themselves as Capitol Sports Promotions (with their matches sanctioned by the WWC) and were just simply the WWC. So they really didn't stop having a presence, although they did have economical problems and went through bankruptcy.

 

The bankruptcy was also not common knowledge, so it was a surprise to quite a few people when the bankruptcy and closure of Capitol Sports was mentioned by Victor Quiñonez in an interview in 2003. The way he frames it in the interview, it sounds a bit like Carlos Colon and Victor Jovica took advantage of the bankruptcy declaration to force out everyone else and reincorporate as the sole owners. Quiñonez said that he owned 25% and that Abdullah owned 10%. According to the interview, he said that they weren't paid for their shares after the bankruptcy reorganization and reincorporation. So it may have just been a way for Jovica and Carlos to get full control of the promotion again. I'm not completely sold on some of the details of Quiñonez's account (he also says he left for Japan in 1989 and was there for 10 years with his own company, not sure if he had another company over there besides IWA which started in 94), but nobody denies now that the name change was due to the economical issues and reincorporation.

 

In recent years, WWC has run a couple shows outside of PR, but not that many or with any consistency. They had a show in Florida a couple of years ago and also had one in either the Virgin Islands or Trinidad. Also, I'm not sure if they've done co-promoted shows in the Dominican Republic or just had talent appear on some cards over there.

 

Ultimately, the last surviving territory comes down to how you define it. If it's the last open one still a member of the NWA when the territory term became no longer relevant, I think it's Portland. If it's the last one open that was running a territory that had been recognized by the NWA, it's either USWA (if the dual offices in Memphis and Dallas doesn't disqualify it) or WWC. It's an interesting thought exercise.

 

Dylan (or anyone else for that matter), if you have any specific questions about the WWC/IWA war or anything else, please go ahead and ask them in the PR thread. I'll answer them as best as I can.

[Dylan Waco]

Jovica was definitely a co-promoter on some DR shows at one point, but that was long ago.

 

Also thanks again for the awesome history lesson. If you don't mind, would you cross post the PR related stuff in that thread? I may ask some about the WWC/IWA war later tonight.

[stomperspc]

I've always thought the distinction between a territory and a regional promotion is down to place and time. It revolves around the NWA being the dominant power in the wrestling landscape. Outside of being a promoter for a determined area that the NWA would recognize as being your domain (be it as a member or as a non-member whose territory was recognized and respected by the NWA), what difference is there between what was a territory company then and a regional company now? Nowadays, NWA members aren't called territories. Conversely, the 'outlaw' feds from the territory days would be called regional companies today. What really muddles the waters is the avenues through which the feds can promote and broadcast their product to fans today.

I think the term territory does have a specific place and time connotation to it. That’s the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. Promotions that were territories existed when pro wrestling in the United States operated under a territorial system. No more territorial system means no more territories.

 

It is sort of a semantics debate, but I do think there is also a real distinction too between territories and regional promotions that came after. The main distinction is that the regional promotions are not bound by the same constraints that territories were but there is more open competition with other regional promotions and national promotions. Memphis survived being swallowed up by a national promotion so they essentially transitioned from a territory to a regional promotion. There is not necessarily an exact date because the death of the territorial system was not an instant occurrence – it was a gradual shift.

 

That’s why I hesitate to call SMW a territory because it didn’t operate under a territorial system. SMW used a lot of the elements found in territories – a regular loop, rotating talent, and local television – but it operated under a system in the United States where there were two national promotions who toured nationally and had national television. The competition and the existence of national promotions is the distinction between territories and regional promotions/local promotions/current indies. SMW was a regional promotion but they also had to directly compete with both WWF and WCW with TV and live events. In 1978 in Knoxville, there was just Southeast Championship Wrestling for wrestling fans. In 1993 in Knoxville, there was SMW operated regionally along with WWF and WCW operated nationally and coming to town as well. I think that’s a big enough difference between the two promotions to warrant two different terms.

 

SMW was certainly different than your once-a-month indie promotion. I’d call it a touring regional promotion or something along those lines.

 

ECW was a national promotion later on in their existence. They were largely an unsuccessful national promotion but they ran in enough places and had exposure in enough places (through TV and PPV) that I think they definitely have to be considered national. They just weren’t that successful with their expansion efforts. Like jdw said, there are a lot of similarities to AWA at the end. I’d group both ECW and AWA in the “unsuccessful national promotions” bin. ROH is more or less the current equivalent of those two today. They have enough national visibility via TV and tour in enough different places that they are a national promotion, even if they are far less successful/visible than the other national promotions.

[Bix]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

 

Also, in 1978, there WERE two promotions in Knoxville: Southeastern and All-Star/ICW. Bad example there.

[khawk20]

...my thought is that the loss of Winnipeg was the absolute death blow, as it killed off a stable town, where they could have potentially worked some decent tv off of TSN and maybe scrambled back into Brandon as another loop town within reach if things continued to spiral in the States.

Winnipeg was about as big a loss that could have happened to the AWA at that point, in terms of losing a consistently drawing market that hadn't experienced the attendance downturn that other formerly stable cities had. AWA was already experiencing problems drawing in the Twin Cities and in Chicago, while Winnipeg had stayed steady and had even seen a upturn in the few months proceeding the WWF taking over there.

 

An underrated facet of the AWA dying off was the move of their TV to Las Vegas. The re-vamped TV was necessary for the ESPN show, but by moving away from the focal point of the promotion being in Minny and St. Paul, they basically conceded their home base to Vince which, in hindsight, left them with nowhere to really turn back to once Vegas was used up.

 

The cards were on the table by the time they finished up in Vegas, but moving back to Minnesota for their World Title battleroyal (an attempt of sorts to re-establish a home base where they could at least exist on a much smaller scale), and then drawing only 800-ish to the Civic Center for it was a sign that the home-town flavour the AWA had provided for 30 years was all but gone. 3rd-rate talent is bad, but continuity in an area where the AWA had that much tenure might have allowed for the fans to put up with it until things rebounded. Breaking the continuity of Minny as the home base prevented that from ever having a chance to happen.

[marrklarr]

Outside of being a promoter for a determined area that the NWA would recognize as being your domain (be it as a member or as a non-member whose territory was recognized and respected by the NWA), what difference is there between what was a territory company then and a regional company now?

I guess that's what makes a territory a territory. The distinction is totally bound up with the old NWA system and really ceases to exist once promotions started encroaching on other promotions' turf. I know there were other features of the NWA framework (talent sharing, a single world champion, etc.), but wasn't the crux of it basically "I'll stay out of your backyard if you stay out of mine?"

 

Even Vince Sr. and Verne honored the basic NWA pact except for having their own champions. I believe this is how they remained on good terms with the NWA (is it true that Vince Sr. was actually on the board of the NWA at one point post 1963?)

 

Once promotions stopped respecting the boundaries, the concept of a territory was basically on it's way out. Were there other promotions beside JCP and WWF that openly and blatantly defied the boundaries? (I know expansion was happening all over the place, but a lot of that was companies moving into areas that were up for grabs.)

 

On AWA expansion...It's that they did this at the worst possible time and at the expense of their own local, far more stable, base areas.

An underrated facet of the AWA dying off was the move of their TV to Las Vegas. The re-vamped TV was necessary for the ESPN show, but by moving away from the focal point of the promotion being in Minny and St. Paul, they basically conceded their home base to Vince which, in hindsight, left them with nowhere to really turn back to once Vegas was used up.

Is this perhaps why Memphis was able to hang on for so long? No matter what they never lost sight of their base and never really spread themselves too thin.

[JerryvonKramer]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

Excellent and well-articulated post this.

[Dustys Pencil]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

 

Also, in 1978, there WERE two promotions in Knoxville: Southeastern and All-Star/ICW. Bad example there.

 

I was always under the impression that ECW ran the same towns on pretty much the same schedule not necessarily weekly(which a lot of territories didn't run weekly towns anyway)

[jdw]

The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory.

Probably some point in 1988. Clawmaster's results have them still working territory-ish through the end of 1987, and a bit into 1988 (factoring in missing results as well since they ran increasingly smaller shows).

[peachchaos]

I went through Graham's site to get clarification on ECW's slow expansion:

 

1992-1993 - Pennsylvania

1994 - added spots in Maryland, Delaware, New York, New Jersey

1995 - expanded to Florida, NYC, Connecticut

1996 - not much other than two matches co-promoted with IWA in Japan

1997 - Massachusetts, West Virginia, Pay Per View

1998 - Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, co-promoted Japan with FMW

1999 - South Carolina, North Carolina, Illinois, Tennessee, National TV

2000 - Washington D.C., Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Missouri, Kansas, Minnesota, Texas, Ontario, Arkansas

[El Boricua]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

 

Also, in 1978, there WERE two promotions in Knoxville: Southeastern and All-Star/ICW. Bad example there.

Agree that this is a great post and a terrific definition of what characteristics constitute a territory. I do have one question. Would you consider both promotions in Knoxville in 1978 (Southeastern and ICW) territories?

[jdw]

1996 - not much other than two matches co-promoted with IWA in Japan

That 08/11/96 card at Korakuen Hall might have been the worst show I saw on my two trips to Japan.

[mookeighana]

I went through Graham's site to get clarification on ECW's slow expansion:

 

1992-1993 - Pennsylvania

1994 - added spots in Maryland, Delaware, New York, New Jersey

1995 - expanded to Florida, NYC, Connecticut

1996 - not much other than two matches co-promoted with IWA in Japan

1997 - Massachusetts, West Virginia, Pay Per View

1998 - Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, co-promoted Japan with FMW

1999 - South Carolina, North Carolina, Illinois, Tennessee, National TV

2000 - Washington D.C., Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Missouri, Kansas, Minnesota, Texas, Ontario, Arkansas

I just did EXACTLY the same thing. Very good summary.

 

1992: PA -- Philly (18x), Kensington & Morrisville (1 time)

 

1993: PA -- Philly (14x), Radnor (2x), Morrisville (1 time); MD - North East & Essex (1x each)

 

1994: PA -- Philly (20x), Hamburg/Montgomeryville/Concord Township (3x), Montogeryville/ Valley Forge / Norristown / Harrisburg / Bristol / Jim Thrope (1x); FL -- Tampa & Ocala (1x each); NY -- Yonkers (1x); DE - Dover (1x); NJ -- Wildwood (1x)

 

1995: PA -- Philly (19x), Jim Thorpe (10x), Reading & Kennett Square (3x each), Glenolden (2x), Mifflintown & Hazelton (1x), FL -- Ft. Lauderdale (3x), Tampa (2x), Orlando (2x); NY -- Middletown (2x), Queens (1x); DE - Dover (1x); MA - Salisbury Beach (1x)

 

1996: PA -- Philly 17x), Plymouth Meeting (8x), Jim Thorpe (7x), Reading (5x), Glenolden (4x), Allentown (4x), Downington (2x), Bensalem (2x), Warwick (1x) ,Jim Thrope (1x); NY -- Middletown (4x), Staten Island (3x), Queens (3x), Deer Park (1x); MA -- Revere (2x), Webster (1x); Delaware - Burlington (1x), Wilmington (1x)

 

1997: PA -- Philadelphia (15x), Downington (6x), Monaca (4x), Scranton (4x), Allentown (3x), Warwick (3x), Rostraver (2x), New Kensington (1x), Beaver Falls (1x), Downingtown (1x), Hazelton (1x), Kutztown (1x), Hamburg (1x), Indiana (1x), Jim Thorpe (1x); NY -- Queens (8x), Buffalo (3x), Rochester (2x), Jamestown (1x), Elmhurst (1x), Syracuse (1x), Poughkeepsie (1x), Lake Grove (1x); MA -- Revere (8x), Waltham (6x), Webster (2x), Plymouth Meeting (1x), Downington (1x); Trenton (5x), Asbury Park (2x), Blackwood (2x), Elizabeth (1x), Wildwood (1x) ,Belmar (1x); FL -- Ft. Lauderdale (2x), Orlando (1x); CT -- Stamford (1x), New Britain (1x); WV -- West Liberty (1x); Delaware -- Glasgow (1x)

 

1998: PA -- Philadelphia (16x), Pittsburgh (3x), Rostraver (3x), Altoona (3x), Monaca (3x), Wilkes-Barre (2x), Hamburg (2x), Lebanon (1x), York (1x), Allentown (1x), Harrisburg (1x); NY -- Queens (7x), Buffalo (5x), Poughkeepsie (2x), Rochester (1x), Auburn (1x), Staten Island (1x), Poughskeepsie (1x), Freeport (1x); FL -- Ft. Lauderdale (4x), Kissimmee (4x), Tampa (3x); NJ -- Blackwood (3x), Woodbridge (2x), Trenton (2x), Atlantic City (1x), Asbury Park (1x), Belmar (1x)

; MA -- Revere (4x), Worcester (2x), Waltham (2x), Fall River (1x); LA -- New Orleans (2x), Baton Rouge (2x), Thibodeaux (1x), Alexandria (1x), Chalmette (1x); CT -- New Britian (2x), Manchester (1x), New Britain (1x); AL -- Birmingham (1x)

Ozark (1x), Montgomery (1x); OH -- Cleveland (2x), Dayton (1x); GA -- Marietta (2x), Dalton (1x); IN - Indianapolis (1x); Tokyo (1x); MI - Inkster (1x)

 

1999: PA -- Philadelphia (11x), Wilkes-Barre (3x), Johnstown (2x), Lebanon (2x), Pittsburgh (2x), Rostraver (1x), York (1x), Allentown (1x); NY -- Queens (4x), Poughkeepsie (4x), Staten Island (3x), Buffalo (3x), Binghamton (2x), Freeport (2x), White Plains (1x), Schenectady (1x); FL -- Orlando (2x), Kissimmee (2x), Ft. Lauderdale (2x), Cocoa Beach (2x), Daytona Beach (1x), Palmetto (1x), Tampa (1x), Jacksonville (1x); GA -- Columbus (2x), Gainesville (2x), Dalton (2x), Warner Robbins (1x), Augusta (1x), Atlanta (1x), Duluth (1x); MI -- Lansing (3x), Grand Rapids (3x), Detroit (2x), Plymouth (1x), Flint (1x); OH -- Cleveland (3x), Dayton (3x), Columbus (1x), Warren (1x), Toledo (1x); NJ -- Trenton (4x), Asbury Park (1x), South Amboy (1x), Belmar (1x), Edison (1x); MA -- Worcester (3x), Fall River (3x), Boston (1x), Revere (1x); LA -- Baton Rouge (2x), Houma (2x), Alexandria (1x), West Wego (1x), New Orleans (1x); SC -- Columbia (2x), Spartanburg (2x), Rock Hill (1x); NC -- Raleigh (1x), Asheville (1x), Winston-Salem (1x), Charlotte (1x), Concord (1x); IL -- Villa Park (2x), Chicago (1x), Peoria (1x); DE -- Dover (3x); TN -- Chattanooga (1x), Nashville (1x); VA -- Salem (1x), Richmond (1x); AL -- Dothan (1x), Birmingham (1x); IN -- South Bend (1x), Gary (1x); CT -- Hartford (1x); NH -- Hampton Beach (1x)

 

2000-2001: PA -- Philadelphia (6x), Pittsburgh (1x), Bethlehem (1x); NY -- New York City (4x), Buffalo (2x), Poughkeepsie (2x), Queens (1x), Utica (1x), Schenectady (1x); FL -- St. Petersburg (2x), Ft. Lauderdale (1x), Tallahassee (1x), Jacksonville (1x), Orlando (1x); WI -- Milwaukee (4x), Green Bay (1x), LaCrosse (1x); OH -- Toledo (2x), Cincinnati (1x), Cleveland (1x); VA -- Virginia Beach (1x), Salem (1x), Norfolk (1x), Richmond (1x); MO -- Kansas City (2x), St. Charles (1x), Poplar Bluff (1x); CT -- Danbury (3x); NH -- Salem (3x); LA -- New Orleans (2x, Baton Rouge (1x); IN -- Indianapolis (1x), Evansville (1x); MN -- Minneapolis (2x); IL -- Villa Park (1x), Chicago (1x); MI -- Ypsilanti (1x), Battle Creek (1x); TX -- Houston (1x), Dallas (1x); AL -- Birmingham (1x), GA -- Atlanta (1x); Mississauga, Ontario (1x); NJ -- Asbury Park (1x)

DC -- Washington (1x); AR -- Pine Bluff (1x); CA -- Los Angeles (1x); MA -- Worcester (1x)

 

So, cities with 10+ shows were 136 Philly shows, 24 Queens shows, 18 shows in Jim Thorpe (PA), 15 shows in Revere (MA), 13 shows in Buffalo (NY), 12 shows in Ft. Lauderdale, 11 shows in Trenton...

 

# of Shows by Month

[BrickHithouse]

The promotion (or lack of) the shows in Wichita has always bothered me. The first one was March 2000. They advertised the shit out of it - spots on a few radio stations, at least one Dreamer call-in interview, posters around town, and an ad in the paper IIRC. It drew a solid house (1500-2500 at a guess), and man, the Wichita fanbase was theirs for the taking. It was the best show we'd seen in years.

 

So then they come back in July - no ads, no promotion, no nothing. I didn't even know about the show til the day after and I was eating, sleeping and breathing wrestling info that summer.

 

Allegedly there may have been a third show where they did a TNN taping. Same deal with that.

 

It's like they killed Wichita dead so they'd have an excuse to never come back.

 

I don't know that this really adds to the discussion but it was really ass-backwards.

[Bix]

The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory.

Probably some point in 1988. Clawmaster's results have them still working territory-ish through the end of 1987, and a bit into 1988 (factoring in missing results as well since they ran increasingly smaller shows).

 

I used to think it was '88 but at some point I read, I think in old WONs, that the AWA had nothing happening betwen TV shoots at times in '87, too. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the smaller shows from '88-on were sold shows promoted outside of the "AWA territory" (like that Pennsylvania show there's a handheld of) by Rob Russen.

[Bix]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

 

Also, in 1978, there WERE two promotions in Knoxville: Southeastern and All-Star/ICW. Bad example there.

Agree that this is a great post and a terrific definition of what characteristics constitute a territory. I do have one question. Would you consider both promotions in Knoxville in 1978 (Southeastern and ICW) territories?

 

I'll defer to Kris here, because I know there were times where the Knoxville NWA office barely had any spot show towns going, much less a loop. Don't know if All-Star ran other towns, but they were absorbed in to ICW, which did have an actual territory.

[JerryvonKramer]

Bix - let's say a promotion got a Don Owen sort of situation where they owned the arena, and were able to keep low overheads. And they used that building to tape their TV every week. Do you think it's possible for a company to keep going purely through TV revenue and without a loop?

 

I always wondered about that. I thought TNA could have done it, but not with the way they were booking (sub-WWE style). Surely you need some amount of jobber matches to prevent burning out the roster fast.

 

But theoretically do you think it's possible?

[BrickHithouse]

Bix - let's say a promotion got a Don Owen sort of situation where they owned the arena, and were able to keep low overheads. And they used that building to tape their TV every week. Do you think it's possible for a company to keep going purely through TV revenue and without a loop?

 

I always wondered about that. I thought TNA could have done it, but not with the way they were booking (sub-WWE style). Surely you need some amount of jobber matches to prevent burning out the roster fast.

 

But theoretically do you think it's possible?

I definitely do think it's possible

[Dylan Waco]

This isn't quite the same but there are indie territories near where Exposer lives and I was born who run weekly/bi-weekly (depending on the season), without a real loop, but part of a loose federation with another promoter who promotes out in the country (or on off dates in Chattanooga proper) using the same talent. The main hub is a building owned by a promoter, with another that the promoter has free reign in out in the country. The shows generally do well enough to sustain themselves. But it's an explicitly regional arrangement, with no tv (that is a goal to be fair), let alone national tv. Which means there is no pressure to expand, let alone "go national."

[Bix]

Bix - let's say a promotion got a Don Owen sort of situation where they owned the arena, and were able to keep low overheads. And they used that building to tape their TV every week. Do you think it's possible for a company to keep going purely through TV revenue and without a loop?

 

I always wondered about that. I thought TNA could have done it, but not with the way they were booking (sub-WWE style). Surely you need some amount of jobber matches to prevent burning out the roster fast.

 

But theoretically do you think it's possible?

TV landscape is too different. Yeah, TNA gets rights fees now, but they'd have to put a lot of money into a building to get it to look good enough for TV.

[KrisZ]

To me, a territory was a full-time job promotion that had a loop with regular towns in a specific geographic area. That's the commonly accepted definition, being a territory doesn't automatically mean your boundaries are set by the NWA because there were non-NWA territories like in Arizona. SMW was a territory because it was a full time office with a loop. Global wasn't. The AWA stopped being a full-time territory in '87, more or less, because they would live off the ESPN deal and go months at a time without running house shows. St. Louis was one town that cherry-picked and thus wasn't a territory. Toronto usually got talent from elsewhere generally just one town and TV, with Buffalo occasionally mixed in as well as occasional spot shows. ECW wasn't a territory because there was no loop. The USWA was through the end because they did have a loop.

 

Also, in 1978, there WERE two promotions in Knoxville: Southeastern and All-Star/ICW. Bad example there.

Agree that this is a great post and a terrific definition of what characteristics constitute a territory. I do have one question. Would you consider both promotions in Knoxville in 1978 (Southeastern and ICW) territories?

 

I'll defer to Kris here, because I know there were times where the Knoxville NWA office barely had any spot show towns going, much less a loop. Don't know if All-Star ran other towns, but they were absorbed in to ICW, which did have an actual territory.

 

SECW was definitely a territory as they worked a loop of shows around Tennessee/Kentucky/West Virginia.

 

All-Star mainly just ran Knoxville and suburbs of Knoxville.