AWA Results: Podcast and Discussion

[KrisZ]

Since I mentioned my rankings on here....and there were quite a few matches in the Top 20 that weren't in mine, here is my Top 20.

 

1. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86)

2. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (12/25/86)

3. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83)

4. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (Cage Match) (1/17/87)

5. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers (8/30/86)

6. East-West Connection vs. High Flyers (3/1/81)

7. King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter (Cage Match) (4/21/85)

8. Stan Hansen vs. Crusher Blackwell (6/28/86)

9. Jerry Lawler vs. Kerry Von Erich (12/13/88)

10. Manny Fernandez vs. Wahoo McDaniel (10/15/88)

11. Greg Gagne vs. Curt Hennig (5/30/87)

12. Wahoo McDaniel vs. Boris Zuhkov (Russian Chain Match) (8/29/87)

13. Stan Hansen vs. Curt Hennig (5/31/86)

14. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Larry Zbyszko (7/11/87)

15. Wahoo McDaniel vs. Curt Hennig (12/27/87)

16. Stan Hansen vs. Sgt. Slaughter (2/23/86)

17. Wahoo McDaniel vs. Curt Hennig (Indian Strap Match) (11/28/87)

18. Jerry Lawler vs. Curt Hennig (2/19/88)

19. Marty Jannetty vs. Buddy Rose (10/18/86)

20. Jerry Lawler vs. Curt Hennig (7/16/88)

[Dylan Waco]

I had Martel v. Rheingans 19 myself. I know I saw the ballot that had it at 11 but I can't remember who it was. Maybe Clayton Jones?

[shoe]

I think the Flair/Bock talk was real interesting. I had it 78. I'm a huge Flair fan and am shocked this is a top 25 match. While I had Flair/TA 25.

[Dylan Waco]

Another crazy result I just noticed - someone had Adonis v. Hogan as their number ten

[victory]

You didn't like Wahoo v. Bock?

I did not. I'll probably rewatch it tonight to make sure.

 

I didn't hate this match just didn't love it like others did. Too chop heavy for my taste.

[shoe]

Someone had the Brody/Blackwell matches 6, and 8. I wonder if it was the same person?

[shoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the 1st hr. draw to get the #1 spot on all the sets. I was wondering if people think if their is a bias. for 60 minute matches. I'm a fan of them, but I feel I'm in the minority.

[Boon]

Haven't got round to watching the entire set yet just bits and pieces, and to be honest not too hot on AWA as a whole, but I have to say I'm surprised only one pre 1985 match is in the top ten when considered AWA had passed it's peak in terms of popularity and star power, but it seems 86-88 churned out classic after classic. This maybe no surprise so someone who follows AWA closely, but I will look forward to viewing the set.

[khawk20]

Haven't got round to watching the entire set yet just bits and pieces, and to be honest not too hot on AWA as a whole, but I have to say I'm surprised only one pre 1985 match is in the top ten when considered AWA had passed it's peak in terms of popularity and star power, but it seems 86-88 churned out classic after classic. This maybe no surprise so someone who follows AWA closely, but I will look forward to viewing the set.

I think if there were more complete or near-complete matches from the earlier 80's there would be more. A lot of JIP arena matches were cut out of the process because there was less than half shown, and some of it was obviously good stuff. the first High Flyers-Strike Force matchup is a good example, where we got the last 7 minutes out of a 29 minute match.

[goodhelmet]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the 1st hr. draw to get the #1 spot on all the sets. I was wondering if people think if their is a bias. for 60 minute matches. I'm a fan of them, but I feel I'm in the minority.

This is the 1st draw to make #1 but the longest match to hit #1 was the New Japan 1984 Gauntlet. I also don't think it is because of a bias towards long matches. I think it was because it was the best match on the set. I am normally averse to such long matches but this one was a classic for the ages.

[Matt D]

I am kind of surprised I didn't have the 4/18/82 Cage match lowest. Pretty sure that's the one where I hated the late match shine legwork on and the clipping hurt even if Blackwell's bumping was awesome. I had it at 120. I wonder who had it at 137. I'm glad The Ventura six man did so well even though I had it at 24. I probably need to rewatch the Lawler vs Hennig match at some point. I THINK my biggest minor disappointment is that Patera/Brad vs Badd Company didn't rank higher. I'll obviously mention some other things as I keep listening here. I'm about halfway through. I had the other Martel vs Jumbo match way higher (15) than the one that actually made the top twenty (which I had at 59).

 

The top fifteen of my ballot was full of Martel vs Bock and Hennig vs Bock matches a lot of which ended up between 20 and 30.

 

I had Kerry vs Lawler at 21 and the finish is something I like a lot more when you see some of the post-match promos because then you start to wonder if the ref wasn't corrupt which would also excuse some of the tights-chain-work, which is perfectly fine by Lawler but worked terribly by the ref who basically stares right at it (and yeah, the pile-driver).

[JerryvonKramer]

Who were the high voters on Flair vs Bock then?

[Matt D]

So I mentioned my minor regret. My major regret is pretty simple. I really wish that #7 and #6 were switched. That's it. I absolutely get the arguments for the Midnight Rockers cage match and I think Will did an excellent job arguing one point of view for the match on the podcast. I don't agree with it but it's a completely valid way of looking at it, and I should probably keep listening to hear about the January cage match (which I had #11) before commenting more if I do at all. However, like others, the King Tonga cage match was #3 on my ballot and I loved it so I would have liked to see that overtake the December 86 one. That's it.

 

THAT said, thanks to Will for the kind words. I was admittedly a huge nuisance at times on this project but it was a blast to be a frontrunner in the comments and it kills me looking back that I didn't participate in some of the earlier ones like Memphis and Mid-South. But yeah, this was a total blast and I do hope someday they get the DVDVR section back up so that we can preserve some of the back and forth on these matches. I think there was a really high level of discourse on a lot of these and we really didn't let anything fly. i don't know what the discussion was like on previous sets or on other bit projects like the Best WCW Match of the 90s or whatever on other boards, but I can't imagine that there's been a lot of wrestling discussion online, maybe ever, that could have been at a higher level and more enjoyable than at least some of what we were doing here.

 

Great project. I'll finish the podcast when I get some work out of the way.

[JerryvonKramer]

I should also mention that Will's argument for the Christmas St. Paul cage match was very persuasive. It's definitely the most compelling argument in favour of the first 10 minutes that I've seen. However, on the most fundamental level, I still wonder if the narrative of "face gets too cocky and ends up paying for his hubris" is one that a wrestling match should be advancing. I mean ... without pushing this too far, you could make an argument to say that this is doing something really interesting with "wrestling form". Shawn's role in the match -- if you accept Will's argument -- is something more akin to a flawed Shakespearean tragic hero than to your traditional babyface. From that point of view, the match is doing something genuinely new, innovative and interesting.

 

I could buy that. When it came to it in the ranking, though, I took the traditionalist line of it being an unwelcome aberration. Even taking that into account, I still adopt that line to an extent because the dynamics are ass backwards. Like Dylan, I found myself cheering on Rose and Somers when Shawn was getting his comeuppance. Should that happen? Is it a good thing for us to be willing the babyface to get his head kicked in by these scumbags?

 

That's the only thing that stops me flipping on this and going with Will's argument completely.

[Matt D]

I need to hear the discussion of the 1/17 cage match and that won't happen for a couple of hours but that match gets across a lot of the same ideas in the first match without a lot of the BS flourishes that drags the earlier match down and it ranked higher with far, far less deviation. I think that says something.

 

EDIT: It's perfectly valid that Will read in elements and an overarching story (and what he feels to be a worthwhile one) that I didn't too. I know I did that for the Bock vs Hennig draw and while he thought that was a great match too, he outright said that he didn't see the specific narrative elements I did in that match. A lot of times what we do as watchers is that we interact with what we're watching and pull together a narrative in our head from the composite pieces that may or may not have been directly intended. That's why I do my write ups like I do. I note a lot of stuff, including the transitions and elements of the base and heat, etc, in order to pull it together to see what sort of narrative can and is created.

 

For instance, Will pulls things together with ease in bloody hate-filled brawls in ways that I'm not always comfortable doing where the violence through being intense and heated almost creates its own reality for him and I don't entirely see it. That's more in general though.

[shoe]

Matt nuisance is not how I would describe you. Homeless guy crazy maybe .... Just kidding. You should be proud to defend a minority position with so much passion. I hate to type so you'll never see me do that . I'm glad someone does. It's important to have someone who gives the board checks and balances. Opposing views are good. If we all agreed on everything it would get boring as fuck around here.

[Graham Crackers]

I'm listening to this right now and I want to comment on Flair vs Bockwinkel because I had it at 14. Being clipped was annoying but I have a weird sweet spot where clipping doesn't bother me quite as much and combining that with how much I loved what we did get to see kept it really high on my ballot. Flair and Bockwinkel are both wrestlers who have had many matches where they stooge for an opponent and whether it's fair or not that creates a certain amount of expectations when you see them. That's probably because being long term top stars and traveling champions they've been in charge of making other wrestlers look like stars. This ended up being pretty violent and in some ways I thought it resembled a Japanese interpromotional match. Obviously it wasn't as uncooperative as a New Japan vs War match. Their lack of cooperation manifested as both wrestlers being more cautious about giving up their position than usual. The violence though, oh man. The spots I remember off the top of my head are some really nasty Ishikawa-esque mounted punches and Flair going for the double foot stomp. My favorite matches from both of those wrestlers are their more violent matches so this was like peanut butter and jelly for me.

[mookeighana]

As promised - closest to the pin stats!

 

Four Ballots that were closest to the groupthink

o soup23 (closest)

o Masters423

o Childs

o Phil Schenider

 

Four Ballots that were furthest from the group

o dave musgrave

o ironmikesharpe

o Stunning Grover

o Cowboy Wally

o Nomad (furthest)

[Matt D]

I'm listening to this right now and I want to comment on Flair vs Bockwinkel because I had it at 14. Being clipped was annoying but I have a weird sweet spot where clipping doesn't bother me quite as much and combining that with how much I loved what we did get to see kept it really high on my ballot. Flair and Bockwinkel are both wrestlers who have had many matches where they stooge for an opponent and whether it's fair or not that creates a certain amount of expectations when you see them. That's probably because being long term top stars and traveling champions they've been in charge of making other wrestlers look like stars. This ended up being pretty violent and in some ways I thought it resembled a Japanese interpromotional match. Obviously it wasn't as uncooperative as a New Japan vs War match. Their lack of cooperation manifested as both wrestlers being more cautious about giving up their position than usual. The violence though, oh man. The spots I remember off the top of my head are some really nasty Ishikawa-esque mounted punches and Flair going for the double foot stomp. My favorite matches from both of those wrestlers are their more violent matches so this was like peanut butter and jelly for me.

One theory about Flair vs Bock is that between the sheer amount of Flair we've all seen and the sheer amount of Bock we'd seen up until then on the set, I think a lot of us were sort of able to mentally fill in the blanks using what we did have to work with in the match. That may or may not be fair, but it was something we probably did unconsciously.

[mookeighana]

Also, there were some questions that didn't get addressed during the podcast that I wanted to repost here for greater exposure:

 

Person1

* Was there a Ted DiBiase of this set? (Someone who did a lot of high-quality work but also had a ton of matches where they phoned it in?)

* Do we have to re-evaluate Greg Gagne’s reputation as a poor wrestler?

* Was DeBeers better than his matches on this set would have you believe (i.e. competent, could be carried, occasionally good) or worse?

* Now that you’ve seen Brody sell like a champ for Blackwell, can the healing begin and the Brody hate stop?

 

Person2

* Heel in peril sections: was this something distinctly AWA and why did it originate? Did it affect the viewing of the podcast members one way or another?

* How losing the boards changed the voting results for this set, not so much in terms of the amount of ballots but if we're seeing less "hive mind" voting?

* Rose, Somers & Sherri: just how awesome this trio was, how they came to be put together, where they rank all-time among heel tag teams, whether or not they could have made any halfway decent blowjob tag into superstars during their run together. Can we get a Doug Somers set from Will??

* Is Verne Gagne a shithead?

[shoe]

As promised - closest to the pin stats!

 

Four Ballots that were closest to the groupthink

o soup23 (closest)

o Masters423

o Childs

o Phil Schenider

 

Four Ballots that were furthest from the group

o dave musgrave

o ironmikesharpe

o Stunning Grover

o Cowboy Wally

o Nomad (furthest)

 

1. Soup does all tie breakers between Parv and You on WTBBP go to you for now on?

 

2. I never thought Phil would ever be near the top of group think, and I mean that in a good way . Must of been because Killer Kahn wasn't on the set.

[goodhelmet]

Person1

* Was there a Ted DiBiase of this set? (Someone who did a lot of high-quality work but also had a ton of matches where they phoned it in?)

Both Bock and Hennig had subpar matches that didn't make the cut just like Dibiase. They are the closest to Dibiase as being the ace for a long time and having tons of stuff to select from.

 

* Do we have to re-evaluate Greg Gagne's reputation as a poor wrestler?

- this was answered on the podcast.... Greg was a great tag wrestlr who was so-so as a singles competitor.

* Was DeBeers better than his matches on this set would have you believe (i.e. competent, could be carried, occasionally good) or worse?

- I liked Debeers matches on the set so I can't answer this.

* Now that you've seen Brody sell like a champ for Blackwell, can the healing begin and the Brody hate stop?

- no

 

 

* Heel in peril sections: was this something distinctly AWA and why did it originate? Did it affect the viewing of the podcast members one way or another?

- this happened a lot in WWF tags as well so I dnt see it distinctly AWA.

* How losing the boards changed the voting results for this set, not so much in terms of the amount of ballots but if we're seeing less "hive mind" voting?

I don't think anyone goes and turns in a ballot to be just like everyone else.

* Rose, Somers & Sherri: just how awesome this trio was, how they came to be put together, where they rank all-time among heel tag teams, whether or not they could have made any halfway decent blowjob tag into superstars during their run together. Can we get a Doug Somers set from Will??

 

For one year, as good as any other tandem on record.

[Matt D]

I think the idea that if you don't like Wahoo/Bock, you don't like wrestling is pretty much bullshit. It's a very distinctive style. It's very sprintish and I can absolutely understand it if someone would prefer something that breathes more or goes to the mat more or works more out of a base or plays more with body part selling or has a much more defined heat segment and comeback. It's very much a vulnerable, desperate heel champ match and I can see why people would like it less if it's not what they want in wrestling. I'm not even talking highspots or anything like that. It's super minimalist and I honestly don't think there's a real build of emotion to it. There's some in the desperation out of Bock, yes, leading to the finish, but I don't think it has as much rounded emotional growth as it could and as as a lot of other matches on the set have. It's all noise and no (or very little) negative space to help reinforce meaning.

 

That said, I don't think anyone couldn't say it wasn't good, whether or not they outright like it. It's super intense. It is an incredible Bock performance and a surefire sign that he's wildly versatile. Wahoo brings such realistic aggression. Heenan plays his role so well. The finish is badass. For people who care about this, they are betting the shit out of each other. I had it in my top third on a set that I absolutely loved and I do like it and I would show it to people as a way to show them how good everyone involved was. There were just 44 matches I either liked more or thought were better on the criteria I care about.

[soup23]

As promised - closest to the pin stats!

 

Four Ballots that were closest to the groupthink

o soup23 (closest)

o Masters423

o Childs

o Phil Schenider

 

Four Ballots that were furthest from the group

o dave musgrave

o ironmikesharpe

o Stunning Grover

o Cowboy Wally

o Nomad (furthest)

 

1. Soup does all tie breakers between Parv and You on WTBBP go to you for now on?

 

2. I never thought Phil would ever be near the top of group think, and I mean that in a good way . Must of been because Killer Kahn wasn't on the set.

 

You know I will be using this to my advantage, Shoe. I am really surprised that I was closest to the pin since only 12 out of the top 20 was in my own top 20.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I had Bock/Flair as my No. 4. I loved the match. It was intense and it kind of caught me off guard a bit. I was expecting a different type of match.

 

Clipping makes no difference to me whatsoever. If the committee determines that it's good enough to go on the set, I'm not going to dock it points simply because it's clipped.

 

Flair has taken grief on all of the 80s set podcasts, if I remember correctly. Not that people have disliked him, but a few folks on the pods almost seem disappointed when Flair matches finish as high as they do. I get that there can be Flair overkill, but I just calls 'em like I sees 'em. I usually end up liking Flair's matches a whole helluva lot and rank them accordingly.