Undertaker > Hogan

[Loss]

I understand that. I'm not questioning Hogan's impact on pro wrestling. He can't be touched. I am questioning the level of celebrity he has outside of wrestling, especially relative to other passing fads around the same time as his peak in popularity. Yes, it's much stronger than anyone in wrestling, but he's a footnote in pop culture at best.

[Loss]

One thing that may help -- who are some non-wrestling celebrities that you would compare to Hogan in terms of general fame? I'm thinking not even just individual celebrities, but pop culture concepts that were hugely popular, be it for a short period of time or something that endured. I agree that Hogan probably has a more recognizable face than Molly Ringwald simply because he's so distinctive and she's been out of the public eye for so long. But I do think if we were ranking pop culture phenomenons of the 1980s, the Brat Pack would rank well above Hulk Hogan. I hope that clarifies my point.

[soup23]

Richard Simmons is one celebrity I would put fairly lateral to Hogan.

[Mad Dog]

Mike Tyson

[BrickHithouse]

Mr. T

 

Gary Coleman

 

hmmm....

 

Andrew Dice Clay

 

Pee Wee Herman

 

I think Hogan is/was a bigger name than all these guys but is this on the right track?

[NintendoLogic]

I think Tyson is the perfect comparison. Neither he nor Hogan are pop culture icons, but they both have near-universal name recognition that transcends their respective sports.

[Loss]

That does help, and I wouldn't disagree with any of the names mentioned. Richard Simmons seems like a great pick. I had the perception for some reason that people in this thread saw him as an Ali/Jordan type. I probably understated his place in history. I mean, yes, more people probably have heard the song "Rico Suave" than have watched a Hulk Hogan match, but that doesn't mean Gerardo is a bigger pop culture phenomenon than Hulk Hogan. I poorly explained my point.

[BrickHithouse]

Richard Simmons seems like a great pick.

Yeah it is, and really nails it too. Probably the first time they've ever been compared as well

[jdw]

I would say it means about as much to your average person on the street, yes. He's not Michael Jackson, Tom Cruise, Oprah Winfrey or Arnold Schwarzeneger. He's an E-list celebrity at best.

In the 80s?

 

Of course.

 

But so were Austin, Rock and Foley in the 90s and early 00s.

 

Seinfeld averaged about 30M+ viewers it's last 5 seasons, across 116 episodes. How many times did Austin, Rock or Foley draw 30M+ viewers for even 30 minutes of Raw or SmackDown?

 

It's actually worse than that.

 

The final episode of Quantum Leap drew 20M viewers. QL never was a season ending Top 20 program.

 

For all the talk of wrestling being mainstream in 1997/98, here's a look at what was really drawing:

 

1 Seinfeld (34.1m)

2. ER (30.2m)

3. Veronica's Closet (24.4m)

4. Friends (24.0m)

5. Touched by an Angel (21.8m)

6. Monday Night Football (21.0m)

7. Union Square (19.9m)

8. 60 Minutes (19.8m)

9. CBS Sunday Movies (19.4m)

10. Home Improvement (18.4m)

 

Hell, I don't even remember Veronica's Closet and Union Square, which was *cancelled* despite being the #7 show that year. Good god, my head hurts remembering that Touched By An Angel was a Top 10 show in four seasons.

 

Was anyone in pro wrestling in the 90s as big as Garth Brooks? Mariah Carey? Nothing in wrestling was bigger than The Lion King, or Jurassic Park, or Titanic, or The Phantom Menace. Four Harry Potter books were released during the height of the Attitude Era.

 

We can do this through all of pro wrestling history:

 

$270,775 Johnson-Jeffries (1910)

$87,053 Gotch-Hack II (1911)

 

Boxing's biggest match routed wrestling's biggest match.

 

Then it got far, far worse:

 

$455,552 Willard-Dempsey (1919)

$1,789,238 Dempsey-Carpentier (1921)

$1,188,603 Dempsey-Firpo (1923)

$1,895,733 Dempsey-Tunney (1926)

$1,083,530 Dempsey-Sharkey (1927)

$2,658,660 Tunney-Dempsey II (1927)

$96,302 Londos-Lewis (1934)

 

Is it possible that some or most of those numbers are worked? Sure. But it's also likely that if we had the unworked numbers, that boxing's biggest gate was 20 times larger than pro wrestling's.

 

Wrestling has always been a garbage form of entertainment drawing weaker numbers than either sports or entertainment. No wrestling promotion drew as much in the era as Gone With The Wind did... or Godfather or The Sting or Exorcist or Jaws or Star Wars. Wrestling wasn't as watched as Roots, or the Super Bowl.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Worth mentioning that Hogan had international penetration too. Puts him ahead of some of the names being bandied around as equivalents. Of course, as has been touched upon, the fact that Hogan has such a distinctive look (and name, for that matter) also plays a part in this. Same reason I guess that Mr T is still so well remembered (I'm assuming somewhat there).

[jdw]

Well, you knew who I was talking about right away and I did say Hogan is probably more recognizable than her. But I don't think it's a significant difference. Molly Ringwald hasn't had the longevity of Hulk Hogan as far as movies and television, but are you going to tell me that Hogan is the person more people know between the two?

This is a bit of a tough one. I think both at the time and in hindsight were overrate how big those Molly movies were:

 

$24M Sixteen Candles (1984 #44)

$46M The Breakfast Club (1985 #16)

$24M Weird Science (1985 #38)

$41M Pretty in Pink (1986 #22)

$70M Ferris Bueller's Day Off (1986 #10)

$19M Some Kind of Wonderful (1987)

 

The big movies of 1984 were Beverly Hills Cop and Ghostbusters, while Gremlins ($148M), Karate Kid ($90M), Police Academy ($81M) and Footloose ($80M) were among the ones that toasted 16 Candles.

 

The big movies of 1985 were Back to the Future and Rambo, with a number of adult movies doing better than the Hughes movies: Color Purple ($94M), Out of Africa ($87M) and Witness ($68M). Cocoon ($76M) was a bit of a cross over movie as all generations enjoyed it.

 

As much as I loved Ferris, I'd have to admit the big movies of 1986 were Top Gun and Crocodile Dundee, while Platoon got the Oscar run to rack up big money. Back to School and Aliens topped Ferris as well. Pretty in Pink was down there.

 

By Some Kind of Wonderful, the bloom was off Hughes and he movied into adultish movies. His return to younger movies were his ture hits:

 

$286M Home Alone (1990)

$174 Home Alone 2 (1992)

 

Anyway, back to Molly...

 

I knew girls for whom those movies were a big deal. Hell, I knew boys for whom those The Breakfast Club was a big deal... though admittedly I was stoner when it came out, and thought it was faker than fake, more full of bullshit than deep thoughts, and was basically a big giant pussy of a movie when dealing with real issue kids were dealing with at the time. But yeah... there were kids who thought it was The Shit.

 

Just not as many as who flocked to Back to the Future or Rambo that year.

 

Was Molly bigger than Hogan in 1985? Or more to the point, was 1985 Molly bigger than 1987 Hulk, which was likely his peak in that era? I'm not entirely sure.

 

But we all would admit that the start of Back to the Future was bigger than Hulk, as was the star of Rambo, as was the star of Beverly Hills Cop, as was the star of Ghostbusters (though he kind of pissed away that stardom), as was the star of Top Gun.

[BrickHithouse]

Back to School

"Bring a pitcher of beer every 5 minutes until someone passes out. Then bring one every 10 minutes"

[ohtani's jacket]

Or are we about to side-drain into a discussion about the top entertainment acts of 1913?

This we should most definitely do. Who can forget that Canadian crooner Henry Burr or the irresistible Alice Joyce?

 

Bigger star? Hogan or Steve Guttenberg? Hogan or Al Bundy? Hogan or Kathleen Turner? The funny thing about Hogan is that outside of North America he was more famous than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky.

[jdw]

Hogan = Jordan

 

Brutus Beefcake = Bill Cartwright.

Brutus Beefcake = Bill Wennington

 

[BrickHithouse]

I just won a bet

[JerryvonKramer]

Well, you knew who I was talking about right away and I did say Hogan is probably more recognizable than her. But I don't think it's a significant difference. Molly Ringwald hasn't had the longevity of Hulk Hogan as far as movies and television, but are you going to tell me that Hogan is the person more people know between the two?

Yes.

 

I'd be really shocked if that was true. The John Hughes movies are iconic and The Breakfast Club is on cable almost ALL THE TIME.

 

Loss, I lecture students typically (but not all) aged between 18 and 22. It seems like I can't go more than a few sentences without dropping a pop culture reference. It's almost a tick a mine. I feel like I'm forever making analogies.

 

These days, however, I almost always follow it up with a show of hands for who has actually seen or even heard of said thing. It's almost become an in-joke at this stage that I'll drop a reference and then say something like "Dog Day Afternoon anyone?" and then I see the show of hands.

 

It's an interesting little game. And week after week after week, sadly, it seems to confirm my hypothesis. What's my hypothesis?

 

That kids who grew up with the internet no longer have a wide cache of film or tv pop references to draw from.

 

They do have some, but they are increasingly narrow. Potter, for sure. Lord of the Rings to an extent. Star Wars to an extent (though not as much you'd think). Increasingly, weirdly, Doctor Who (almost exclusively David Tennant version). Lion King. Pixar films. Oh and Game of Thrones (to some extent). Beyond that it's starting to be a stretch. I'm not kidding. It's pretty obvious when they collectively get a reference, even without the show of hands, because you can feel the energy and excitement of it. And weirdly it might also lead to them talking a bit. You can hear the murmur of recognition. Students generally WANT to show you they get something.

 

I have countless examples, but this is just from the past 3-4 weeks of the new semester that I can remember. Usually between 50-60 in the lecture hall.

 

Godfather: no one

Seventh Seal: no one

Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey: 2 people

Labyrinth: 2 people

"Have you heard of Bill Murray?": 4 people

Ghostbusters: 3 people

The Princess Bride: 4 people

Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves: 1 person

Mary Poppins: 7 people (heartbreaking for me!!)

 

Can you see Breakfast Club faring much better? I don't see much difference between the British and American kids either. The American kids seem even more into Doctor Who than the British ones, but that's the only difference I could really point to when it comes to "getting" stuff.

 

The most disconcerting thing to me is that they seem gloriously unbothered by this. They absolutely don't seem to care at all that they haven't seen or heard of these things -- and these are literature students who you'd think might.

 

I've talked to colleagues about this rather unspoken of phenomena and they've found the same thing almost to a person across the board.

 

The view I'm formulating is that there's quite a big generational disconnect between the people like us who grew up watching TV and films and who are for the best part extremely cine-literate, tv-literate and pop-culture-literature and those kids who were BORN into a period of permanent internet with their eyes almost surgically attached to their i-phones or whatever other devices.

 

It makes sense. Culture is becoming more diversified and less homogeneous. People tend to think of that as a good thing, I tend think of it as a bad thing, because it leads of lots of people not knowing what I call "Basic Cultural Knowledge". Just shit you should know from living in a country.

 

A student asked me today what "sodomy" means. Christ. I can't work under these conditions!

 

Anyway, anyway ...

 

Coming back on topic, this is leading somewhere ...

 

Just this past week I was doing As You Like It. This is my ONE opportunity to crowbar in a wrestling reference. How? At the start of that play a character called Orlando has a wrestling match with "Charles the Wrestler". And that gives me scope to say "imagine him coming on stage ... like Hulk Hogan ..."

 

"Hulk Hogan anyone?"

 

They all know him. British and American.

 

I don't know what you can draw from this. It's anecdotal and unscientific, but these are different classes of different people from different places from the same age bracket. Seems like more kids know who Hogan is that have seen the Godfather. The Bill Murray thing was totally fucking shocking to me. But at this point I am beyond the stage of being disgusted or even surprised by these things. My honest view is that that generation of people don't care about pop culture in the same way as the 80s generation (most of us) do.

[jdw]

I just won a bet

[ohtani's jacket]

Why do you expect a bunch of kids to know your outdated pop culture references, Parv? People I work with ten years younger than me don't understand half the shit I rabbit on about.

 

The Breakfast Club was made for a million bucks on a single shoot location with a no-name director and group of actors who gained notoriety during '85. To gross that much on an R rated film is a big deal.

[JerryvonKramer]

Why do you expect a bunch of kids to know your outdated pop culture references, Parv? People I work with ten years younger than me don't understand half the shit I rabbit on about.

 

The Breakfast Club was made for a million bucks on a single shoot location with a no-name director and group of actors who gained notoriety during '85. To gross that much on an R rated film is a big deal.

Well, it depends what you mean by "outdated". Is Wizard of Oz outdated or has it become a part of our collective cultural memory / conscious? Poppins? The actor Bill Murray? The Godfather?

 

In my mind, all of these things aren't "outdated" but are "ingrained" in our culture. Seemingly (and sadly), however, it's just in my mind.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also think the point is wider than that.

 

We grew up watching TV. Not just what was on at present. But re-runs. Endless re-runs. And movies shown again and again.

 

If you grew up not watching TV but being online instead, that's a different upbringing whichever two ways you go about it. Reading Wiki or being on Facebook can't and doesn't replace the hours and hours and hours most of us spent watching TV growing up. I think it's a paradigm shift. Maybe that's overstating it, but my own view is that is exactly what's happened.

[tim]

Maybe they've just stuck you with the knuckleheads JVK. What literature student isn't a Bergman watching pedant? Nothing against Bergman; well maybe a little against him, I didn't think the Seventh Seal was that good.

 

I'm 24 and I'm confident that anyone in my cohort knows what The Godfather is so maybe that particular bit is a UK thing.

[BrickHithouse]

So is it all settled then that Hogan > Undertaker?

 

Nice work, gentlemen!

[gingears]

A student asked me today what "sodomy" means.

Going to guess that wasn't one of the ones that grew up with internet.

[JerryvonKramer]

Maybe they've just stuck you with the knuckleheads JVK. What literature student isn't a Bergman watching pedant? Nothing against Bergman; well maybe a little against him, I didn't think the Seventh Seal was that good.

 

I'm 24 and I'm confident that anyone in my cohort knows what The Godfather is so maybe that particular bit is a UK thing.

The one thing that might be skewing my results is that my classes have a lot of girls. Sometimes 90% girls. Maybe the sort of people who actually sit down and watch Godfather tend to be boys.

 

These kids are meant to be bright, they need good grades to get into the university ...

 

I am broadly convinced of another phenomena though. The internet also can produce like super-pop culture nerds. You've got everything ever made at your fingertips (for FREE). So it's possible for some kids to go that way too. My guess -- based on gut instinct -- is that most of those types would be male.

[pantherwagner]

Or are we about to side-drain into a discussion about the top entertainment acts of 1913?

This we should most definitely do. Who can forget that Canadian crooner Henry Burr or the irresistible Alice Joyce?

 

Bigger star? Hogan or Steve Guttenberg? Hogan or Al Bundy? Hogan or Kathleen Turner? The funny thing about Hogan is that outside of North America he was more famous than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky.

 

In Southern Europe in the 90s Magic and Bird were much bigger than Hogan (I imagine Central Europe too but I'd be only guessing). I think the difference is that your dad would know Magic, Bird and Hogan, but your grandpa wouldn't know Hogan.

 

Montana would mostly be known by teenage males as the guy on the NFL video game on the SEGA consoles. Gretzky is a total no name. I know he's a hockey player but I couldn't pick him out of a lineup.