wrestle war 90

[vannaboy]

Seems like they were moving into a big program but Sting got hurt at clash 10. Was wondering what the plan was.

[Bix]

Sting was gonna win the title. So basically what happened at the Bash but without the knee injury drama leading into it.

[shoe]

Plus they had Flair, and then a program with Luger set up coming out of Starcade 89.

[thebrainfollower]

Would Capitol Combat have been Sting going over again in a cage do you think?

[Loss]

Nothing was really planned out that far, so who knows? On an interesting side note, Flair vs Luger was going to be a non-title hair vs hair match at one point so that Luger could get his win and get credit for Flair's new hairstyle, even if Sting would be the one to take the title from him. Flair didn't really trust Jim Herd at the time, so that never happened.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the long-term plan must have been to build toward a long Sting vs. Luger programme and gradually to de-emphasise Flair as the main man. I've thought a good deal about this and if they'd played it smart you might have gone with:

 

1. Sting over Flair

2. Sting vs. Luger feud (3 PPVs at least)

3. Eventually have Luger win to become new champ.

4. Run interesting Luger vs. challenger stuff: Pillman, Scott Steiner, Face Flair, maybe a face Sid

 

It's clear in early 1990 that Sting and Luger were being thought of as the future and Flair very much the past. In a strange way, the Sting injury was beneficial to Flair's career. He was about to slide down the card but instead had to work another programme with Luger.

[thebrainfollower]

What month did Flair's haircut debut?

[Loss]

Flair's hairstyle changed numerous times in 1990. The short hair didn't come until December when he cut it off to fit under the Black Scorpion mask, but Jim Herd had been pushing for Flair to change his look for a while before that.

[vannaboy]

Has Flair ever talked about why he never put over Luger for the title?

[JerryvonKramer]

Has Flair ever talked about why he never put over Luger for the title?

Not that I could find, but the Observers at the time talk about how Flair point blank was not willing to. He'd put Sting over, but not Luger. 1990 was an interesting year for Flair, his confidence and ego were hurt as he was turning 40. He was worried about his position, he was worried about Jim Herd. And on top of all of that, was coming off a run where he was facing almost total burnout from being head of the booking committee.

 

I think the tendency is for fans to think of Hogan as the ruthless backstage politician and Flair as the guy who is willing to put anyone over. But make no mistake that Flair was not afraid to use his backstage pull and position in the company to call shots. You don't spend as long on top in the wrestling game as he did without being a canny political operator. This sort of thing is more visible in 1990-91 when his position is under threat. But even in the the 1980s, when Flair reigned supreme in Crockett, he had power struggles with Dusty. If you watch Flair in shoots, even now, he thinks the Horsemen were booked too weak and didn't win often enough.

 

In shoots, Flair is unkind about Luger. You've got to believe that Luger's bad rep within the industry comes partly from the fact that he was never in with the boys -- Flair and Arn in particular. Flair often buries Luger whenever he talks about him in a way that I think is unfair. Then again, I wasn't there, maybe Luger was a massive asshole. All we can see is the work.

[thebrainfollower]

Don't forget he did horrible things like start guaranteed contracts and argue for wrestlers getting health care coverage.

 

Which to someone of Flair's beliefs, probably are horrible things (Well the former is at least debatable I guess) and explains some of his feelings. And from everything I've read of Luger, he didn't hold the business in total awe at all times but saw it as somewhat lowbrow entertainment that he was slightly ashamed to be a part of. All valid feelings I guess if your goal was to be a legit athlete, but not the sort of thing that's going to endear you to Flair.

 

All this Luger never knew how to work stuff though, well add that to the pile of evidence that wrestlers are the last people you solicit about who can and who can't work.

[JerryvonKramer]

The impression I get, Brain, is that Flair resents the fact that Luger didn't embrace his chance to learn when he was running with the Horsemen. Flair was a student of the game through and through. When Flair was a youngster he had total respect for the business and by all accounts was sponge-like doing anything he could for the older hands and learning from them all the time.

 

Luger wasn't the same. Flair wanted the same sort of repsect he had shown others when he had broken through, and Luger didn't show it and acted with a sense of entitlement that (from Flair's point of view) he plainly didn't deserve.

 

I CAN see it from his point of view. I understand why Flair and Arn and the others don't like him. He wasn't a fan of wrestling, he treated it like a job, he wasn't eager to please his seniors. All of these things feed into the burials on shoots and Flair's refusal to put him over from 88 to 90.

[thebrainfollower]

I can see Flair's perspective. From Luger's point of view he probably saw the Horsemen (and Flair particularly) as throwbacks to the worst sort of fratboy/jock behavior that derailed him in college and nearly cost him so much. He was probably determined to never go down that path again.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and Luger was a huge party guy but JJ Dillon seems to throw cold water on that IIRC in his a week with the Horsemen shoot.

[Loss]

I don't think Flair resented Luger. I think he feared for his own spot, probably for good reason since Herd was insistent on phasing him down and even tried to cut his pay a few times. The real problem was with Jim Herd, and I think both Flair and Herd handled themselves poorly there. Flair built Sting up through his booking in 1989 and that was going to be the guy he dropped the title to -- not Luger. He promised Sting he would not drop the belt while he was out injured and managed to keep that promise, but he paid a heavy political price for it. He was no longer the head booker, Herd no longer wanted to push him as the top star and he lost whatever clout he may have still had. I really don't think Flair had a problem with Luger. I think circumstances just got in the way every time. I'm not saying that to excuse Flair, but I'm saying I think the issue was always something else every time he was asked to do the honors, more so than not wanting to pass the torch to Lex.

 

Flair's track record on putting people over is pretty solid, and he has spoken about Luger as someone who he enjoyed working with and thought they had great matches.

[thebrainfollower]

I am not sure I can agree with that. I think Flair's a good enough BS artist to always have an excuse. Flair should have dropped the belt to Luger at GAB 88 and frankly he should have done so as well at Starrcade 88, both times in an effort to jump start the company while gates were still not in total freefall.

 

I think Flair has a better excuse for both PPV's in 1990 IF we assume Sting is miles ahead of Luger as a worker. But watching the footage he wasn't. Isn't it possible Flair knew this from the start and groomed Sting on purpose because he would not be able to eclipse him in the same way Luger might have? Those are the same sort of political machinations Hogan pulled regularly and Flair was no different.

 

But then I'm someone so down on Ric Flair the human being that I think he encouraged the crazy party lifestyle because he knew most people couldn't handle it and would crash and burn out (DVE, Magnum (not due to drugs I know, but exhaustions leads to bad decisions) thereby eliminating potential competition so maybe it's just my anti Flair bias.

 

I still think he's probably the GOAT as a wrestler. As a human being I think VERY little of Ric Flair.

[Loss]

Flair was never asked to lose to Luger in 1988, so it's unfair to say he "should have" or that he "refused".

 

Flair is hardly a saint, and I won't call him that. He should have put over Luger and had chances to do so. Those chances often coincided with him losing his spot as a booker, or renegotiating a contract or a variety of other things, though.

[Loss]

I think in the end, Flair thought if he put over Luger when they wanted him to, because Herd had it out for him so much, the promotion would then see him as expendable and either cut his pay when his contract was up for renewal or not re-sign him. Doing the big job was his bargaining chip, so he milked it for everything he could. The difference between Flair and Hogan is that the powers-that-be were never out to screw Hogan, decrease his value, phase him down or pay him less when he was asked to do a job.

 

It's easy to forget because he was around and heavily featured at times for the next nearly 20 years, but the "too old" talk started almost immediately after Turner bought the company, and there were people who wanted to phase him out even as he was having his artistic peaks with Steamboat and Funk.

[JerryvonKramer]

I like Flair as a human being. Wrestling is his whole life and he had a tremendous attitude towards it, his heart was mostly always in the right place. What's sad about him is that he doesn't know how to retire.

 

I have read in the WONs though that Flair wouldn't put Luger over for whatever reason.

[soup23]

I like Flair as a human being. Wrestling is his whole life and he had a tremendous attitude towards it, his heart was mostly always in the right place. What's sad about him is that he doesn't know how to retire.

This seems odd to say. I would disagree on everything here except the last part.

[El-P]

I like Flair as a human being. Wrestling is his whole life and he had a tremendous attitude towards it, his heart was mostly always in the right place. What's sad about him is that he doesn't know how to retire.

This seems odd to say. I would disagree on everything here except the last part.

 

Agreed. I'm a Ric Flair fan but I have no sympathy for Flair. He was painted as the babyface when Hogan and Bischoff fucked around with him, but the reality is that he himself fucked around with others before. Flair was about Flair. I have way more sympathy and understanding for a guy like Luger actually.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't really understand what is being said.

 

Flair played the game. You have to look out for number 1 in wrestling, that much is obvious. You don't agree that he had a good attitude as regards his craft? He was a real student of wrestling and lived for it. It's all he cared about. And he lived his gimmick too. So what? That might have come at the expense of his family but so what? The net result is that he's the GOAT. That's what he wanted and achieved.

[soup23]

I don't really understand what is being said.

 

Flair played the game. You have to look out for number 1 in wrestling, that much is obvious. You don't agree that he had a good attitude as regards his craft? He was a real student of wrestling and lived for it. It's all he cared about. And he lived his gimmick too. So what? That might have come at the expense of his family but so what? The net result is that he's the GOAT. That's what he wanted and achieved.

This makes you like him as a human being that he forsake his family for someone on a message board to call him the GOAT? I don't think Flair all the time had that great of an attitude and in fact was quite salty in regards to his peers and his position in wrestling. I certainly don't see someone like Flair respecting the wrestling business and being a student of the game as much as someone like Bret.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not just people on PWO, his peers in the industry and so on.

 

I'm not sure what you want Flair to be, some sort of humanitarian? How many people at the top of their profession never screwed anyone over? Or made personal sacrifices?

 

I don't understand how it can be argued that Flair didn't respect the business. I'm baffled by that arugment Chad.

[soup23]

Not just people on PWO, his peers in the industry and so on.

 

I'm not sure what you want Flair to be, some sort of humanitarian? How many people at the top of their profession never screwed anyone over? Or made personal sacrifices?

 

I don't understand how it can be argued that Flair didn't respect the business. I'm baffled by that arugment Chad.

I don't want Flair to be a humanitarian but there is a big gap between you saying you like Flair as a human, someone living a normal life, and being a humanitarian. If Flair was able to stay loyal to Beth and that would have been it, fine but his track record has been very destructive and sad. This doesn't take into account his financial irresponsibility and fraudlant activity which is somethign I have little respect for given his earnings throughout the years.

 

I also don't understand the argument with his peers in the industry thinking he is the GOAT. So what? That doesn't make him a good human and it seems really bizarre for you to use that as a talking point when you lambast others for doing the same thing.

 

Does Flair respect and love the business? Yes, I would say he does but I think you are overstating the case. I never once said he didn't just that I don't think Flair is someone that is willing to study the history of wrestling. He has his own perception of what wresting is at this point and time and sticks to that unwilling to change. Even in his prime as a performer, he had instances where you could argue he "respected" the business and other times where he didn't.

 

Personal sacrifices will undoubtedly be made with professional success and likewise but there has been a multitude of people that have handled it better than Flair. Flair really gives a low bar to overcome. Hell, for starters I would say his buddy Hulk has manged it better.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can you point to instances where he disrespected the business?